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Which prophecies did Jesus fulfill as to be the Messiah?

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
Give me a passage, and I'll be happy to go through it.

I am not looking up all the passages just based on words.

I'm not interested in changing your belief. That was the wrong approach before. I should test my own beliefs and keep them in memory.

There are Jews who are Christians, and others who aren't, but who have benefited from Christian influence.

Christianity is based on Jewish influence and history. Many of the core intentions between these two classes remain the same, similar, or of the same effect.

There are Jews who choose not to benefit peaceably with Christianity.. As there are also Christians who choose not to benefit peaceably with certain expectations in Judaism.


There is no 'whole' Judaism that could deny Christianity. Christianity resulted because of, and out of, Jewish thought and history. There may be a percentage of Torah or prophet apostasy, depending on the individual Christian. But this is true of Jews, as well. All differences arise because of misunderstanding, or physical incapability.
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
The list was first of all, the prophesy itself. It was written that Messiah would fulfill the criteria outlined in the prophesy. How is context an issue? Do you mean that because it wasn't fulfilled the way the Pharisees said it should be, then it can't be true?

The other part of the list is how Jesus fulfilled the prophesy. How did he fail?

How did he choose the town where he was to be born? ?

Actually he was from Bethlehem and he did ride a donkey. That's true.

How could he choose the tribe?

We have no idea what tribe, because we don't know who his real biological father was.
How did he choose a "maiden" as his mother?

All children are born from maidens.


How did he perform miracles? (Even the Pharisees did not dispute his supernatural powers.)

He didn't.

How did he choose the manner and details of his death?
He didn't. However, it has nothing to do with jewish prophesies.


The list is very extensive so I wanted to know how it can be said that Jesus failed to fulfill a single prophesy? :shrug:

Where is the list of prophesies he failed to fulfill?

What are Jews expecting Messiah to do that will be more than what Jesus did?

Check out Michah 4:3 and Ezekiel 37.

The prophesies are:

World Peace

A descendent of David (all tribal lineage comes form the biological father only)

The messiah will be a unified king of Israel

All the nations will worship one G-D

All the jews will come to Israel

All the jews will stay in Israel

The temple in jerusalem will be rebuilt and stand forever

This isn't me making it up. You can read it yourself.
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
Actually both apply, depending on who you talk too and "when" being the key word.


He found most of his fame with his actions at Passover and he was basically unknown by most people.

It took time for fame, legends and mythology to grow and spread throughout the Diaspora.


He was a false messiah because he did not fit the Jewish bill so to speak.

He was a failed messiah because he did not overthrow the Roman oppressors.

What if the liberation was spiritual, not political?

Jesus came to set people free....but it wasn't the time for the kingdom to rule the earth back then, so it was not going to be a political freedom. But the kingdom ruled in the lives of Christ's disciples...all of the first followers of Jesus were Jewish, so some accepted him as the genuine article. Even today, many Jews have come to realize that Messiah's coming took place two thousand years ago and that when he comes again, it will be to establish God's kingdom rule over the whole earth.

If God is with the nation of Israel today....where is his blessing? Where is the peace he promised to bring?

Christendom too has no peace. Most are as involved with the corrupt politics of their respective nations as the rest. Jesus taught his followers to be "no part of the world".
Weren't Israel also told to be separate from the world?

Another prophesy in Isaiah said that "in the final part of the days" (I believe that we are living at that time now) people would stream to God's mountain, (his true worship rising above a sea of false worship) and one important thing that would take place is that they "would learn war no more". (Isa 2:2-4)

I believe that God's true worshippers are fulfilling that prophesy today. They are united in a divided world and they are at peace with God and with their neighbors in a world filled with violence and bloodshed.

How many Jews or Christians can say that? How many of any other faith can say that?

It isn't according to what a person says....what is the reality?.....actions speak louder than words.
 
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JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
Check out Michah 4:3 and Ezekiel 37.

The prophesies are:

World Peace

A descendent of David (all tribal lineage comes form the biological father only)

The messiah will be a unified king of Israel

All the nations will worship one G-D

All the jews will come to Israel

All the jews will stay in Israel

The temple in jerusalem will be rebuilt and stand forever

This isn't me making it up. You can read it yourself.

At last,something to research. Thank you.

I will do some homework and get back to you.... :)
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
At last,something to research. Thank you.

I will do some homework and get back to you.... :)

We told you this already o.o

No reasearch is needed to see there is no world peace yet o.o

Obviously Israel is not unified

All the nations worship many gods.

Not all the jews are in israel

No temple in place yet

o_O
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
At last,something to research. Thank you.

I will do some homework and get back to you.... :)

Here you go

Michah 4:3

3. And he shall judge between many peoples and reprove mighty nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nations shall not lift the sword against nation; neither shall they learn war anymore. WORLD PEACE

Ezekiel 37

21. And say to them, So says the Lord God: Behold I will take the children of Israel from among the nations where they have gone, and I will gather them from every side, and I will bring them to their land. ALL THE JEWS WILL COME TO ISRAEL

22. And I will make them into one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel, and one king shall be to them all as a king; and they shall no longer be two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms anymore. ONE UNIFIED KING

24. And My servant David shall be king over them, and one shepherd shall be for them all, and they shall walk in My ordinances and observe My statutes and perform them DESCENDENT OF DAVID

25. And they shall dwell on the land that I have given to My servant, to Jacob, wherein your forefathers lived; and they shall dwell upon it, they and their children and their children's children, forever; and My servant David shall be their prince forever ALL THE JEWS WILL STAY IN ISRAEL

26. And I will form a covenant of peace for them, an everlasting covenant shall be with them; and I will establish them and I will multiply them, and I will place My Sanctuary in their midst forever. PEACE. THE TEMPLE WILL BE REBUILT AND STAND FOREVER

28. And the nations shall know that I am the Lord, Who sanctifies Israel, when My Sanctuary is in their midst forever. ALL NATIONS WILL WORSHIP THE ONE G-D
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
I'm not interested in changing your belief. That was the wrong approach before. I should test my own beliefs and keep them in memory.

There are Jews who are Christians, and others who aren't, but who have benefited from Christian influence.

Christianity is based on Jewish influence and history. Many of the core intentions between these two classes remain the same, similar, or of the same effect.

There are Jews who choose not to benefit peaceably with Christianity.. As there are also Christians who choose not to benefit peaceably with certain expectations in Judaism.


There is no 'whole' Judaism that could deny Christianity. Christianity resulted because of, and out of, Jewish thought and history. There may be a percentage of Torah or prophet apostasy, depending on the individual Christian. But this is true of Jews, as well. All differences arise because of misunderstanding, or physical incapability.

I am not going to change my beliefs and you aren't going to change mine.

My wife asks why I bother doing this.

I learn even more about my own religion when I am forced to research stuff to back up what I say.

"Whole" judaism does deny chrisitian beliefs for jews.
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
I am not going to change my beliefs and you aren't going to change mine.

My wife asks why I bother doing this.

I learn even more about my own religion when I am forced to research stuff to back up what I say.

"Whole" judaism does deny chrisitian beliefs for jews.

I think the reasons for why I do this is because I will argue anyways, so better do it in a place were it isnt so anti-social to do so :D

Also because I do feel I learn more in general by arguing things. Both from oers and from my searches to back up my points.

Also, I get to laugh at the stupid things other people say while I pretend perfection :D
 

roger1440

I do stuff
Here you go

Michah 4:3

3. And he shall judge between many peoples and reprove mighty nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nations shall not lift the sword against nation; neither shall they learn war anymore. WORLD PEACE

Ezekiel 37

21. And say to them, So says the Lord God: Behold I will take the children of Israel from among the nations where they have gone, and I will gather them from every side, and I will bring them to their land. ALL THE JEWS WILL COME TO ISRAEL

22. And I will make them into one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel, and one king shall be to them all as a king; and they shall no longer be two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms anymore. ONE UNIFIED KING

24. And My servant David shall be king over them, and one shepherd shall be for them all, and they shall walk in My ordinances and observe My statutes and perform them DESCENDENT OF DAVID

25. And they shall dwell on the land that I have given to My servant, to Jacob, wherein your forefathers lived; and they shall dwell upon it, they and their children and their children's children, forever; and My servant David shall be their prince forever ALL THE JEWS WILL STAY IN ISRAEL

26. And I will form a covenant of peace for them, an everlasting covenant shall be with them; and I will establish them and I will multiply them, and I will place My Sanctuary in their midst forever. PEACE. THE TEMPLE WILL BE REBUILT AND STAND FOREVER

28. And the nations shall know that I am the Lord, Who sanctifies Israel, when My Sanctuary is in their midst forever. ALL NATIONS WILL WORSHIP THE ONE G-D
If Jews as a whole observed the Torah, much of what you wrote could be accomplished. I don’t think the Jews have to wait for some super doper Jew to come out of the clouds with hit songs from “Fiddler on the Roof” being played in the background.

[youtube]Pl7BVr36bbs[/youtube]
Fiddler On The Roof - If I Were A Rich Man [With Lyrics] - YouTube
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
Here you go

Michah 4:3

3. And he shall judge between many peoples and reprove mighty nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nations shall not lift the sword against nation; neither shall they learn war anymore. WORLD PEACE

Ezekiel 37

21. And say to them, So says the Lord God: Behold I will take the children of Israel from among the nations where they have gone, and I will gather them from every side, and I will bring them to their land. ALL THE JEWS WILL COME TO ISRAEL

22. And I will make them into one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel, and one king shall be to them all as a king; and they shall no longer be two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms anymore. ONE UNIFIED KING

24. And My servant David shall be king over them, and one shepherd shall be for them all, and they shall walk in My ordinances and observe My statutes and perform them DESCENDENT OF DAVID

25. And they shall dwell on the land that I have given to My servant, to Jacob, wherein your forefathers lived; and they shall dwell upon it, they and their children and their children's children, forever; and My servant David shall be their prince forever ALL THE JEWS WILL STAY IN ISRAEL

26. And I will form a covenant of peace for them, an everlasting covenant shall be with them; and I will establish them and I will multiply them, and I will place My Sanctuary in their midst forever. PEACE. THE TEMPLE WILL BE REBUILT AND STAND FOREVER

28. And the nations shall know that I am the Lord, Who sanctifies Israel, when My Sanctuary is in their midst forever. ALL NATIONS WILL WORSHIP THE ONE G-D

I believe all of the above. But the things which you apply literally, I see as figurative or spiritual.

When Jesus' disciples watched him disappear into the clouds when he returned to the Father, they asked “Lord, are you at this time going to restore self-rule to Isra’el?” Jesus' disciples did not at that time, discern the spiritual nature of the kingdom and how far into the future humans would have to wait for it to begin its rulership.

The true temple is in heaven where God's presence is. When he returned to heaven, Jesus was instructed to 'wait until his enemies were placed as a stool for his feet'. (Psalm 110:1, 2) Then he was to rule for a time "over his enemies".

The High 'Priest 'compared to Melchizedek' was to be Jesus Christ, who like his predecessor, was also a King. (Psalm 110:4)

Moses said...“Adonai will raise up for you a prophet like me from among yourselves, from your own kinsmen. You are to pay attention to him." (Deut 18:15)

Given their record of killing the prophets that God sent to them, time and again, would Israel fall into her old habits? Would she murder the very one sent to gather her sons together and reconcile them to the Father?

How would you know if your forefathers blew it? :confused: You are only taking their word for how it was.

If Jesus was "the prophet like Moses" who was the mediator of the new covenant, then how do you know that Israel haven't missed the boat, as it were...true to form, doing what they had always done?

Even though the earth was to be restored to its intended glory under Messiah's rule, the kingdom itself was not to be earthly. The promised land is no more special to its Creator than any other piece of soil in the world that he made. The whole earth will become like the bountiful promised land in its blessed hey-day. It was pictorial of something so much bigger.

I know you don't accept this but what if its true? What does it mean for Israel if she has indeed denied her Messiah? :confused:
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
If Jews as a whole observed the Torah, much of what you wrote could be accomplished. I don’t think the Jews have to wait for some super doper Jew to come out of the clouds with hit songs from “Fiddler on the Roof” being played in the background.

[youtube]Pl7BVr36bbs[/youtube]
Fiddler On The Roof - If I Were A Rich Man [With Lyrics] - YouTube

I think you are missing the point. Its not whether jews are better at following their religion than everyone else or not.

Its about whether Jesus is the massiah or not, as pointed out, this things MUST come with the messiah, this was the prophecy and it is the premise of the thread that such prophecies are right.

I personally dont believe they necessarily are, but premises are premises. If you want argue with such premise in mind, I would be surprised you didnt fell a lot out of subject.
Ñthe premise is: God said there would be messiah, so there will be

The prophecies he passed down do not have errors and thus are the best way to see if the messiah has come.

If you believe the prophecies didnt come form god or that he lied or ws mistaken, thats likely a subject for a new thread, which I may visit if you wish to make it :p
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
Now with regard to the previous citations....I have been doing some reading....

Mic 4:1-4
"And it must occur in the final part of the days [that] the mountain of the house of YHWH will become firmly established above the top of the mountains, and it will certainly be lifted up above the hills; and to it peoples must stream. 2 And many nations will certainly go and say: “Come, you people, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will instruct us about his ways, and we will walk in his paths.” For out of Zion law will go forth, and the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem. 3 And he will certainly render judgment among many peoples, and set matters straight respecting mighty nations far away. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. They will not lift up sword, nation against nation, neither will they learn war anymore. 4 And they will actually sit, each one under his vine and under his fig tree, and there will be no one making [them] tremble; for the very mouth of YHWH of armies has spoken [it]."

This is a repeat of Isaiah's prophesy (Isa 2:2-4).....It is talking about "the final part of the days".

I believe that we are living in "the final part of the days" right now because the events on earth fulfill prophesy uttered by Jesus concerning his return. (Matt 24:3-14)
Just because the prophesy is yet to be completely fulfilled doesn't mean it is false. It is in its outworking with many features already unfolded. Some yet to come.

Jesus words went beyond just the events of 70 C.E, they applied on into the future when he promised to return to judge the nations.

He will fulfill Isaiah 11:1-5.

His words also coincide with Daniels prophesy about "the time of the end". (in Dan 12:4, 9, 10)

Jesus foretold the destruction of Jerusalem including its temple (Matt 24:1, 2) and he warned his followers to flee to the mountains to escape the Roman seige that would cause immense suffering for Jerusalem's inhabitants. (Luke 21:21-24) Obedient ones escaped with their lives and little else, fleeing to the city of Pella.

After the first seige in 66C.E was abandoned, the Jews thought that they had repelled the Romans as political victory, but it opened up the opportunity for Christians to escape. The return of the Roman legions in 70 C.E was not expected. The seige of Jerusalem was horrendous.

Should God not have warned his people? Why were the Christians the only ones get the warning and escape?

The Bible book of Zechariah foretells: ‘When that time comes, ten men will take hold — speaking all the languages of the nations — will grab hold of the cloak of a Jew and say, “We want to go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.” (Zechariah 8:23 CJB.)

Who is this Jew?

Who are the "ten men"?

When we examine the history of God's people, one thing stands out....only a remnant of the original group ever remained faithful.

In the global deluge of Noah's day a mere remnant of humanity survived. (Gen 7:23) Used by Jesus Christ to describe the situation at the conclusion of the days. (Matt 24:36-39)
Only a remnant of Israel returned from exile. (Isa 1:9; 11:11, 16; 37:31, 32; Jer 23:3; 31:7-9)
"For, although your people, Isra’el, are like the sand of the sea,only a remnant of them will return.
Destruction is decreed, overflowing with justice."
(Isa 10:22, 23; 1:9 CJB)

When fleeing for his life Elijah said to God's angel, “I have been very zealous for Adonai the God of armies; because the people of Isra’el have abandoned your covenant, broken down your altars and killed your prophets with the sword. Now I’m the only one left, and they’re after me to kill me too.” (1 Kings 19:10)

God's messenger spoke to him of a remnant who had remained faithful.
God said, (in verse 18) "Still, I will spare seven thousand in Isra’el, every knee that hasn’t bent down before Ba‘al and every mouth that has not kissed him.”
Only 7,000 out of the nation had not worshipped Baal.

When Christ came, only a remnant in Israel accepted him, treading the same path that they had always followed.
If this is the pattern, then why are we surprised that the majority of Jews today are still awaiting the Messianic prophesies to be fulfilled?

When the Christ comes again, "in the final part of the days" it will be to "render judgment among many nations and set matters straight". Those not already aligned with Messiah's kingdom will lose their inheritance and their right to live under kingdom rule. How sad for them.

When Jesus came as Messiah he was baptized by John, not for repentance for breaches of the law, but because he was dedicating himself from that moment on the the work of the Messiah. He indicated on one occasion, that Isaiah 61:1 ("The Spirit of Adonai Elohim is upon me, because Adonai has anointed me to announce good news to the poor. He has sent me to heal the brokenhearted; to proclaim freedom to the captives, to let out into light those bound in the dark") was fulfilled in him.

His activity as recorded in the Greek scriptures certainly fulfilled those words. The Jewish religious leaders at the time did not accept him.

So we are left to decide who is telling the truth.

What do the facts show?
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
What about Ezekiel 37....?

In Babylonian captivity, the Jews as a spiritual nation were almost dead, like dry bones in a field. (Ezekiel 37:1-4) But what did Ezekiel next see? (Ezekiel 37:5-10.) Those bones were reclothed with sinews, flesh, and skin, and they were reactivated with the breath of life. (Ezekiel 37:11-14) God resurrected the Jewish nation when 42,360 people of all tribes of Israel and some 7,500 non-Israelites seized their opportunity to repopulate Judah, rebuild Jerusalem and its temple, and restore true worship in their homeland. (Ezra 1:1-4; 2:64, 65)

What did the restoration of organizational unity among God’s ancient people illustrate? (Ezekiel 37:15-20.)
Members of all the original twelve tribes of Israel returned to their own soil after King Cyrus’ decree of liberation of 537 B.C.E.
What then about the rest of Israel's history?

Isaiah declared, "If Adonai-Tzva’ot had not left us a tiny, tiny remnant, we would have become like S’dom, we would have resembled ‘Amora." (Isa 9:1)

Are we to imagine that Israel as a nation will be saved? Or would we rightly imagine, as was foretold, that only a remnant of fleshly Jews would respond to the teachings of the Messiah?

No false Christ could change the world like Jesus did or the world would be full of them.
His biggest impact on humanity occurred after his death and is still alive in the world to this day.

So, what do we see today? Is there organizational unity among the Jews? Will there be?

Is there unity among the divided churches of Christendom? Will there be?

Who among the billions of humans on earth today are "doing the will of God"?

Many are claiming to, but who really are?

This is what must be determined by everyone living. There is but one truth and "few" or only a "remnant" of humanity will survive to see the "new earth" of righteousness under Messiah's rule. (Isa 65:17)
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
In summary you accept that Jesus did not fulfill the totality of the prophecies for the messiah.

You think the jews should have accepted him as the messiah because he made some promises which he has taken his time to fulfill... Two thousand years and counting that is.

A lot of people make promises. Jesus himself said that making miracles cannot be enough justification to trust someone.

You also provide excuses as to why God might have "changed his mind" regarding his prophecies. I guess those would be consistent with a non omniscient god.

Then again, maybe you dont believe god to be omniscient.

Humm...

Ting it well I think this thread should be moved to the scriptural debates section. If any mod is willing Id appreciate that :)
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
Are we to imagine that Israel as a nation will be saved? Or would we rightly imagine, as was foretold, that only a remnant of fleshly Jews would respond to the teachings of the Messiah?

I dont care waht you foretell, we are talking about messiah prophecies and if you believe the prophets to be correct, then the messiah should come with peace for all jews.

What you put forth does not clearly say "I take back my prophecy from before, I forgot you were goint to be naughty. Now this one is for real: some jews will accept the messiah and there will be no peace until I kill almost everyone"

The real prophecies on the ither hand were extremely clear. They were not bague nor needed your expert interpreation. o_O
 

roger1440

I do stuff
I think you are missing the point. Its not whether jews are better at following their religion than everyone else or not.

Its about whether Jesus is the massiah or not, as pointed out, this things MUST come with the messiah, this was the prophecy and it is the premise of the thread that such prophecies are right.

I personally dont believe they necessarily are, but premises are premises. If you want argue with such premise in mind, I would be surprised you didnt fell a lot out of subject.
Ñthe premise is: God said there would be messiah, so there will be

The prophecies he passed down do not have errors and thus are the best way to see if the messiah has come.

If you believe the prophecies didnt come form god or that he lied or ws mistaken, thats likely a subject for a new thread, which I may visit if you wish to make it :p
The Jesus of the canonical gospels portrays Jesus as the nation of Israel. Since Jesus is the Messiah and Jesus is also the nation of Israel, logic would dictate the Nation of Israel is its own Messiah.
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
The Jesus of the canonical gospels portrays Jesus as the nation of Israel. Since Jesus is the Messiah and Jesus is also the nation of Israel, logic would dictate the Nation of Israel is its own Messiah.

Provided you come with any rational source for Jesus being the nation of israel, there are still a loy of prophecies missing.

Also, someone doesnt get to say "I will fulfill the prophecy of giving peace to the nation ofisrael! BTW, I am the nation of israel!"

War has not ended, there is still fight amongst jews, obviously not all jews are in israel....

I am honestly surprised on how obvious it was Jesus wasnt the messiah.

Is kinda funny cause this tends to be very overlooked on debates against christianity.
 

roger1440

I do stuff
Provided you come with any rational source for Jesus being the nation of israel, there are still a loy of prophecies missing.

Also, someone doesnt get to say "I will fulfill the prophecy of giving peace to the nation ofisrael! BTW, I am the nation of israel!"

War has not ended, there is still fight amongst jews, obviously not all jews are in israel....

I am honestly surprised on how obvious it was Jesus wasnt the messiah.

Is kinda funny cause this tends to be very overlooked on debates against christianity.
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3555705-post15.html
This is where I’m going with this. Christians have been telling Jews for 2000 years Jews do not understand their own scriptures. That is the reasons Jews do not accept the Gospels. I think it’s the other way around. It’s Christians who do not understand the Gospels. The Gospels were written by Jews, for Jews with a 1st century understanding of Jewish scripture. The Gospels were not written for Gentiles. The Jesus in the Gospels is a metaphor for Israel. In other words he is Israel collectively. He represents the Israel that never went astray after the Exodus. He is God’s son, just as Israel is God’s son. They are one in the same. The Gospels are a sort of Midrash. They are a concise sort of Torah. If you read the words of Jesus closely, all he did was point the Jews to the Torah. Then who is the Messiah? If Jesus is Israel and also the Messiah then according to the Gospels, Israel would be its own Messiah. If I’m right then there must be a first century view point of Jewish scripture to validate my claim. I also believe these Gospels were written after the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD. Jews of this period had to rethink what it meant to be a Jew. The Gospels provided the answer. The answer was the Torah.
 
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