Which prophecies did Jesus fulfill as to be the Messiah?

[metis]

Not entirely accurate. Certainly Pilate was a cruel and brutal man who thought nothing of crucifying ten Jews before breakfast. In fact, he was so brutal he even disturbed Rome who eventually recalled him. But Pilate was also entrusted with keeping the Pax Romana in his part of the world. Releasing a prisoner would be a way to appease the Jews. He favored releasing Jesus because he knew he was no real threat but crucifying him might cause a revolt among his followers.

The Roman historians that I have read say there's simply no evidence of the Romans using such a tactic, nor is there really any reason why they should. If anything, they had a lot to prove by being brutal to offenders.

Again not accurate. In the eyes of the Pharisees Jesus was performing unnecessary healings on the Sabbath. That would violate Shabbos for which the penalty was death.

Not at that time period, nor were the Romans interested in carrying out the penalties of someone violating halacha (Jewish Law) unless it violated their own law. The rule of thumb that the Romans insisted we do is to keep the order and pay our taxes.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

I agree with you. People who disagree with you call you a troll. Great debate technique :no:

I've been called worse, but thanks.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

I am sorry that you are being spoken to this way. This sort of language is not interfaith dialogue.

Thanks for saying so. I have learned not to be bothered by it, but it is a bit wearing. Certainly disappointing.

 

[nazz]

The Roman historians that I have read say there's simply no evidence of the Romans using such a tactic, nor is there really any reason why they should. If anything, they had a lot to prove by being brutal to offenders.

Well it still makes sense to me why they would.

Not at that time period, nor were the Romans interested in carrying out the penalties of someone violating halacha (Jewish Law) unless it violated their own law. The rule of thumb that the Romans insisted we do is to keep the order and pay our taxes.

I'm not talking about the Romans but the Jewish reaction.

 

[Avi1001]

The Roman historians that I have read say there's simply no evidence of the Romans using such a tactic, nor is there really any reason why they should. If anything, they had a lot to prove by being brutal to offenders.

Not at that time period, nor were the Romans interested in carrying out the penalties of someone violating halacha (Jewish Law) unless it violated their own law. The rule of thumb that the Romans insisted we do is to keep the order and pay our taxes.

This is an interesting topic, Metis, which Roman historians have you studied ? I think Tactius may be the most famous Roman historian, with the most famous historian of the early Christian era probably being Josephus, a Jewish apologist. Some might consider Caesar a historian, but it seems like he was too central to be objective. Have you studied other Roman historians from the early Christian period ?

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Wasn't the Jewish way of execution for blasphemy Stoning?

 

[Shermana]

Kind of a puny God you have there, having been able to die so easily (twice btw) at the hands of humans.

You didn't win anything.

What he won was the fulfillment of the prophecy of the Suffering Servant being the Guilt Offering.

 

[CMike]

What he won was the fulfillment of the prophecy of the Suffering Servant being the Guilt Offering.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

In Isaiah 53 the "suffering servant" is Israel.

Isaiah has no chapters in it's original. Chapter 52 and 54 clearly mention Israel and 53 is part of the same prophesy.


Also Israel is referred to as the "suffering servant" before in Isaiah.

 

[Avi1001]

I have no idea what you are talking about.

In Isaiah 53 the "suffering servant" is Israel.

Isaiah has no chapters in it's original. Chapter 52 and 54 clearly mention Israel and 53 is part of the same prophesy.


Also Israel is referred to as the "suffering servant" before in Isaiah.

That's right, CMike, many originally Jewish concepts have been incorporated into Christian theology. The idea of salvation, originally applied to Israel, in Judaism, is used on the individual level in Christianity.

 

[Shermana]

I have no idea what you are talking about.

In Isaiah 53 the "suffering servant" is Israel.

Isaiah has no chapters in it's original. Chapter 52 and 54 clearly mention Israel and 53 is part of the same prophesy.


Also Israel is referred to as the "suffering servant" before in Isaiah.

Israel is the suffering servant referred to there? So Israel was perfectly innocent and not getting whipped by the nations for good reason?

Let's look at the preceding verses here:

1Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
4Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.


So who is the "our"? Who is the one who bears suffering for someone else's sins?

 

[roger1440]

What a good little roman you are.

The Gospels portray the major oppressors as the “mean Jews”. Pilate on the other hand isn’t as mean. The blame for Jesus’s execution is placed on the “mean Jews”. If the “mean Jews” were not responsible for Jesus’s execution the story would not work. The “mean Jews” are not Jews in general. They represent the hypocritical Jews.


Jesus had no problem with the Torah. He had a problem with the abuse of the Torah. He had no desire to change it or abolish it. He did not reinterpret it. He understood the true meaning of the Torah. The meaning is to lead the Jews to God. It’s not about being noticed by men. It’s about being noticed by God. The ancient Jewish prophets had made the same point numerous times in Jewish scripture. All the authors of the Gospels had done was to put it into a story format.
The Pharisees are depicted in Matthew’s Gospel as being more concerned about their outward profusion of faith rather then there inward conviction of faith. They were more about show and tell.


"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.” (Matthew 23:25)


In essence what the Pharisees had done during Jesus’s time was to throw out the baby with the proverbial bath water.

 

[Me Myself]

Jesus had no problem with the Torah. He had a problem with the abuse of the Torah. He had no desire to change it or abolish it. He did not reinterpret it. He understood the true meaning of the Torah. The meaning is to lead the Jews to God.

]

"You shall not eat this food. The true meaning of this is that you can disobey me at will when I tell you not to eat this food, just come closer to me and ignore all my 613 commandments. " -God

 

[Me Myself]

[SIZE=3

[SIZE=3] [/SIZE]The Pharisees are depicted in Matthew’s Gospel as being more concerned about their outward profusion of faith rather then there inward conviction of faith. They were more about show and tell.

[]

But they would never had said the 613 mitzvot are not binding any more, and according to the gospels Jesus said DO AS THEY SAY NOT AS THEY DO.

Unless you ate going to tell me Jesus was wrong or that the phariseees thought kosher was optional, the 613 mitzvot are as binding as ever.

 

[Shermana]

But they would never had said the 613 mitzvot are not binding any more, and according to the gospels Jesus said DO AS THEY SAY NOT AS THEY DO.

Unless you ate going to tell me Jesus was wrong or that the phariseees thought kosher was optional, the 613 mitzvot are as binding as ever.

At the same time, Jesus had some doctrinal points of contention with the Pharisees, such as their belief that offering something to the service of God meant that they didn't have to use it to help their parents. So we either have a blatant contradiction, or Jesus wasn't saying to follow EVERYTHING they said.

 

[roger1440]

But they would never had said the 613 mitzvot are not binding any more, and according to the gospels Jesus said DO AS THEY SAY NOT AS THEY DO.

Unless you ate going to tell me Jesus was wrong or that the phariseees thought kosher was optional, the 613 mitzvot are as binding as ever.

“As a hypocrite: At Matthew 23:2-3, jesus acknowledges the Divine authority of the Scribes and Pharisees. Yet later in the same chapter at 23:23-33, jesus makes a generalized attack and damns all the Scribes and Pharisees.”

At a first glance it may appear to be a contradiction. Take a closer look. Jesus is talking about two different things.

“2 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.” (Matthew 23:2-3)

In Matthew 23:2-3 Jesus is telling his audience they must obey the teachers but not mimic their behavior. Just because someone is worthy to be a teacher that does not mean the student should emulate the behavior of the teacher. One has nothing to do with the other. I have met Pastors that knew the Bible backwards and forwards, but I would never copy there behavior.
“Put not your trust in the great, in mortal man who cannot save. His breath departs; he returns to the dust; on that day his plans come to nothing.” (Psalm 146:3-4)

In Matthew 23:23-33 Jesus is giving reasons why his audience should not mimic the behavior of the teachers.

23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a came.25 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.27 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.29 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30 And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Go ahead, then, and complete what your ancestors started! 33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? (Matthew 23:23-33)

Right results can only be attained by right motivation. The purpose of the Torah is to be honored by God, not to be honored by man. Judaism is a religion of action. Simply put, Jews do stuff. The stuff Jews do must be fueled by humility not arrogance. A parrot can mimic Jewish prayers and a monkey can do the physical actions required by the Torah but neither of these animals have a “humble and contrite heart”.

“Has not my hand made all these things, and so they came into being?" declares the LORD. "These are the ones I look on with favor: those who are humble and contrite in spirit, and who tremble at my word.” (Isaiah 66:2)

Jesus had no problem with the Torah. He had a problem with the abuse of the Torah. He had no desire to change it or abolish it. He did not reinterpret it. He understood the true meaning of the Torah. The meaning is to lead the Jews to God. It’s not about being noticed by men. It’s about being noticed by God. The ancient Jewish prophets had made the same point numerous times in Jewish scripture. All the author of the Gospel of Matthew had done was to put it into a story format.

The Pharisees are depicted in Matthew’s Gospel as being more concerned about their outward profusion of faith rather then there inward conviction of faith. They were more about show and tell.
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.” (Matthew 23:25)

In essence what the Pharisees had done during Jesus’s time was to throw out the baby with the proverbial bath water.
My understanding of the New Testament is much different than the majority of Christians and Jews.

8 “But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10 Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah. 11 The greatest among you will be your servant. (Matthew 23:8-11)

The Jesus of Matthew’s Gospel is telling his audience Jesus is the only teacher. The question to ask would be, “Who or what is Jesus?” Matthew’s Gospel is making a connection between Jesus, the suffering servant of Isaiah, the Torah and the nation of Israel. In some of my previous posts I had mentioned Jesus is a metaphor. I know this is a very radical view that neither Christians nor Jews will accept. Take the time to search Google for “Matthew Midrash”. You might be surprised on what comes up.

 

[Me Myself]

“As a hypocrite: At Matthew 23:2-3, jesus acknowledges the Divine authority of the Scribes and Pharisees. Yet later in the same chapter at 23:23-33, jesus makes a generalized attack and damns all the Scribes and Pharisees.”

At a first glance it may appear to be a contradiction. Take a closer look. Jesus is talking about two different things.

“2 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.” (Matthew 23:2-3)

In Matthew 23:2-3 Jesus is telling his audience they must obey the teachers but not mimic their behavior. Just because someone is worthy to be a teacher that does not mean the student should emulate the behavior of the teacher. One has nothing to do with the other. I have met Pastors that knew the Bible backwards and forwards, but I would never copy there behavior.
“Put not your trust in the great, in mortal man who cannot save. His breath departs; he returns to the dust; on that day his plans come to nothing.” (Psalm 146:3-4)

In Matthew 23:23-33 Jesus is giving reasons why his audience should not mimic the behavior of the teachers.

23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a came.25 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.27 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.29 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30 And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Go ahead, then, and complete what your ancestors started! 33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? (Matthew 23:23-33)

Right results can only be attained by right motivation. The purpose of the Torah is to be honored by God, not to be honored by man. Judaism is a religion of action. Simply put, Jews do stuff. The stuff Jews do must be fueled by humility not arrogance. A parrot can mimic Jewish prayers and a monkey can do the physical actions required by the Torah but neither of these animals have a “humble and contrite heart”.

“Has not my hand made all these things, and so they came into being?" declares the LORD. "These are the ones I look on with favor: those who are humble and contrite in spirit, and who tremble at my word.” (Isaiah 66:2)

Jesus had no problem with the Torah. He had a problem with the abuse of the Torah. He had no desire to change it or abolish it. He did not reinterpret it. He understood the true meaning of the Torah. The meaning is to lead the Jews to God. It’s not about being noticed by men. It’s about being noticed by God. The ancient Jewish prophets had made the same point numerous times in Jewish scripture. All the author of the Gospel of Matthew had done was to put it into a story format.

The Pharisees are depicted in Matthew’s Gospel as being more concerned about their outward profusion of faith rather then there inward conviction of faith. They were more about show and tell.
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.” (Matthew 23:25)

In essence what the Pharisees had done during Jesus’s time was to throw out the baby with the proverbial bath water.
My understanding of the New Testament is much different than the majority of Christians and Jews.

8 “But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10 Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah. 11 The greatest among you will be your servant. (Matthew 23:8-11)

The Jesus of Matthew’s Gospel is telling his audience Jesus is the only teacher. The question to ask would be, “Who or what is Jesus?” Matthew’s Gospel is making a connection between Jesus, the suffering servant of Isaiah, the Torah and the nation of Israel. In some of my previous posts I had mentioned Jesus is a metaphor. I know this is a very radical view that neither Christians nor Jews will accept. Take the time to search Google for “Matthew Midrash”. You might be surprised on what comes up.

But you are discarding what God actually said and then saying you have intention to be close to him

Do you believe or do you not believe that God said this food you can eat, this food you cannot?

 

[roger1440]

But you are discarding what God actually said and then saying you have intention to be close to him

Do you believe or do you not believe that God said this food you can eat, this food you cannot?

Yes, God said that to the Jews, not to the Gentiles. If a Gentile converted to be a Messianic Jew then the 613 laws would apply. I don’t even know if there is a word for that, LOL.

 

[Me Myself]

Yes, God said that to the Jews, not to the Gentiles. If a Gentile converted to be a Messianic Jew then the 613 laws would apply. I don’t even know if there is a word for that, LOL.

Understanding that the jews were his chosen people and the torah was given as the most high standard of morality, that would some day be on every jew's heart?

 

[roger1440]

Understanding that the jews were his chosen people and the torah was given as the most high standard of morality, that would some day be on every jew's heart?

The Torah was given to the Jews and Jews alone. All others are required to be bond to the The Noahide law.In doing so they are "righteous Gentiles". The added laws the Jews have make them no better than the Gentiles. What the added laws do is to give them identity.

 

[roger1440]

Seven Laws of Noah

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


In Judaism, the Seven Laws of Noah (Hebrew: שבע מצוות בני נח‎ Sheva mitzvot B'nei Noach), or the Noahide Laws, are a set of moral imperatives that, according to the Talmud, were given by God[1] as a binding set of laws for the "children of Noah" – that is, all of humanity.[2][3]

Seven Laws of Noah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia