White is a racist term!

[bobhikes]

Really?

Around here, at least with people my age, "brown" is a generally accepted term for someone of south Asian descent (e.g. India, Sri Lanka) or from certain Caribbean countries (e.g. Guyana, Trinidad... for people who aren't "black" but are still dark-skinned). I know plenty of people who use the term to describe themselves... and not in the way that people use the "n-word" to describe themselves as a way to "take the word back" or the like; it's just a generally accepted term.

Accepted doesn't mean right. But what I really wanted to point out that your definitions of Black and Brown aren't excepted in the United States. Brown is pretty much taboo and not used in the United States.

However, A cat is still a cat with all of us.

And Like Kathryn said, Red, Yellow and all the other colors people used in the past are pretty much considered racist remarks. We now call them asians and indians and with indians refer to native or hindu.

But for some reason Black and White are still acceptable terms.

 

[HonestJoe]

Not at all, White and Black as I pointed out through the thread have no valid definition. You created an image in your head of what you accept to be White or Black. This image is of a human that does not exist or a human of another race ie racism.

Of course they have valid definitions. They don't have specific definitions but loads of words fall in to that category (including your example "blond" in reference to hair colour). You know what is meant when the terms are used, even if you're not entirely clear on the specifics.

If having an entirely neutral image of a person when considering the terms white or black is automatically racist, wouldn't that make any descriptive group discriminatory? When someone says man or woman, we will have very similar images yet you're not claiming those terms are automatically sexist. What about old and young being automatically ageist (where we have a similar fuzziness as with race)?

Are they still both white, or something else or should each be labeled differently.

Either, neither or both depending on the circumstances I expect. Does it really matter? If the terms are simply being used for identification - "the black boy over there" - in the same way as height, clothing or hair colour might be why should there be a problem?

If you can provide a valid definition of a Blackman or Whiteman then I am wrong. Otherwise say what you want, I am right.

What makes a definition valid? Even if the term was automatically racist, it would still be a definition of a group of people.

 

[bobhikes]

Of course they have valid definitions. They don't have specific definitions but loads of words fall in to that category (including your example "blond" in reference to hair colour). You know what is meant when the terms are used, even if you're not entirely clear on the specifics.

If having an entirely neutral image of a person when considering the terms white or black is automatically racist, wouldn't that make any descriptive group discriminatory? When someone says man or woman, we will have very similar images yet you're not claiming those terms are automatically sexist. What about old and young being automatically ageist (where we have a similar fuzziness as with race)?

Either, neither or both depending on the circumstances I expect. Does it really matter? If the terms are simply being used for identification - "the black boy over there" - in the same way as height, clothing or hair colour might be why should there be a problem?

What makes a definition valid? Even if the term was automatically racist, it would still be a definition of a group of people.

But its not a group of people. The group only exists in your head. Males exist, Cats exist. Black people and White people do not exist you are arbitrarliy assigning a value with your own bias's to either group.

Is a Central american White or Black?

I have worked with Central American's they run the gambit on Skin Color some would be insulted if you considered them white or black. Most consider language their divider not color. Why because their countries are small and close together. They are very similar looking nation to nation however they speak different languages.

Russia is Located in both Europe and Asia are their people White or Asian or do we refer to them as Russian. In a mall how do you decide with out talking to them or being biased.

You don't want a definition fine take any group(100 +) photo graph and label the people White and Black. Are you going to use any other colors. Why?

There are more than a few mixed families now my own included how and why would you label their children white or black.

Why does anyone feel the need to keep the labels of White and Black for people?

Do you still want that line drawn in the sand?

 

[Darkness]

I am not offended by the term "White," just as I am not insulting others when I label them "Black."

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Is a Central american White or Black?

I have worked with Central American's they run the gambit on Skin Color some would be insulted if you considered them white or black. Most consider language their divider not color. Why because their countries are small and close together. They are very similar looking nation to nation however they speak different languages.

I'm not sure if Trinidad counts as Central America, but my one Trinidadian friend (mostly of South Asian descent, if you go back far enough) calls himself "brown".

Russia is Located in both Europe and Asia are their people White or Asian or do we refer to them as Russian. In a mall how do you decide with out talking to them or being biased.

How do you tell a Russian from a Ukranian or a Georgian without talking to them?

One of my friends is Georgian. Calling her Russian would be a good way to get your head bitten off.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Accepted doesn't mean right. But what I really wanted to point out that your definitions of Black and Brown aren't excepted in the United States. Brown is pretty much taboo and not used in the United States.

Well, things are different here.

Maybe because of our large South Asian population (in the Toronto area, anyhow), people don't feel quite as vulnerable. Whether you're the only "brown" family in town probably has a lot to do with whether the term is threatening or neutral.

However, A cat is still a cat with all of us.

And Like Kathryn said, Red, Yellow and all the other colors people used in the past are pretty much considered racist remarks. We now call them asians and indians and with indians refer to native or hindu.

So no Indians are Muslim? Interesting.

How is it not racist to assume that a member of a particular race necessarily belongs to a particular religion?

 

[Adramelek]

This is a tricky thread. To me the "N" word would be a racist term when applied to blacks as is the word jigaboo, honky or cracker would be racist terms when applied to whites - "cracker"= brittle and breaks under preasure. However, since I abhore political correctness I simply refer to myself as white and not a "Europian-American", and those with dark skin are blacks and not "African-Americans". My ancestors may have come from Europe, but I didn't. The ancestors of the black community may have come from Africa, but if they are born and rised here in the States they are black, not "African-American". This is just one mans opinion, everyone has the right to call and define themselves whatever and however they want.

Xeper.
/Adramelek\

 

[HonestJoe]

But its not a group of people. The group only exists in your head. Males exist, Cats exist. Black people and White people do not exist you are arbitrarliy assigning a value with your own bias's to either group.

All of these groups only exist in the head of the people thinking about them. The definition is less fuzzy and more consistent for some of them but I don't see how that affects your claim that the definition of "white" (and presumably "black" too) is intrinsically racist.

No definition will be entirely consistent (does "man" include a 15 year old male or a post-op transsexual, does cat include lions and tigers?) and plenty are as fuzzy and potentially controversial as black and white (old, rich, tall, Westerner, Jew, doctor). Why not object to the use of all of these terms?

Let's be clear; I'm not saying that the terms white and black aren't controversial in many contexts are often are used in racist ways (intentionally or not) but the reasons behind that aren't to do with the fundamental lack of definitive definition but to do with history (and in many places, current events). There have been and are huge conflicts between people generally defined as "black" and people generally defined as "white".

Again though, not of that means use of the terms in an entirely neutral manner should be considered automatically racist.

Why does anyone feel the need to keep the labels of White and Black for people?

I personally don't feel the need to (and tend not to). I just don't see why, in principal, they shouldn't be used if they work as general identifiers.

 

[beenie]

If a group of people are standing together and there are several men of different ethnicities and skin tones, then if I needed to point him out, I would say "the white man" over there as it would be the easiest way to identify who I was talking about.

Frankly, if you connect the term "white" to slave owners and trailer park "trash" that is honestly your own psychological issue. You are the one with the issue. Not the word 'white".

I have no issue calling myself a white person. I mean, if you want to get technical, my skin tone is more of a really light peach freckled porcelain (Draka be really pale :yes: ), I really see no issue in being white. Why should I? Why should an 'African American' be able to consider himself "a proud black man" but a white guy should be ashamed or considered racist if he is even okay with being white?

Honestly Bob, do have any idea how absurd you sound?

Agree.

There IS no bias in white or black outside of what you believe there to be. They are terms for skin tones. Descriptors to describe what a person looks like and/or their ethnicity. That's it. There are no bad things about being black or white. Only bad things about particular people. that you feel differently, again, only proves your own racism, not everyone else's.

Indeed. I am having real trouble seeing a problem, (as a light brown person myself).

#9 is absurd. It makes just as much sense as the OP's main thrust. White or black or any other color are not racist terms.

Exactly.

Using this logic, any word that someone has a hang up over is a racist term, right?
God forbid someone were to point out the blonde by using the word blonde, right?
What about the red head?

I must be one hugely racist bass turd...

Ack, you beat me to it.

Accepted doesn't mean right. But what I really wanted to point out that your definitions of Black and Brown aren't excepted in the United States. Brown is pretty much taboo and not used in the United States.

However, A cat is still a cat with all of us.

And Like Kathryn said, Red, Yellow and all the other colors people used in the past are pretty much considered racist remarks. We now call them asians and indians and with indians refer to native or hindu.

But for some reason Black and White are still acceptable terms.

I don't get the problem here, and I've read 5 pages.

Example: If someone commits a crime, how am I to describe the criminal? If they're "white", and I don't know their ethnic background, I'm being racist by saying, "s/he was white with blonde hair and blue eyes?" Should I say "peach" instead? What term IS acceptable?

What is your suggestion? As the person robs the convenient store, I'll ask what his/her ethnic background is before I give a description to the police, lest I be "racist".

 

[beenie]

Actually being called white, black, yellow, or brown are actually incorrect terms to describe people of different ethnic backgrounds, but its been used for so long people unconsciously address others this way. But to entertain the OP why is just using the term white racist? Why not black? Or being called Mulatto, Octaroon, Brown, colored, or any of these terms?

How should we describe people standing in a group? If I'm standing across from 6 men in black business suits, 5 black and one white, and I need to give one something (package, letter, etc.) should I just say "the one with the blonde hair" instead of the "white" one? If I say "non-black" I'm screwed there too.

If someone wants to call me light brown, I couldn't care less.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

How should we describe people standing in a group? If I'm standing across from 6 men in black business suits, 5 black and one white, and I need to give one something (package, letter, etc.) should I just say "the one with the blonde hair" instead of the "white" one? If I say "non-black" I'm screwed there too.

How about referring to the person by name?

All this stuff about deciding on the proper term for a group of people ignores the fact that it's usually better to think of people as unique individuals, not as groups. No matter what descriptor you use for a person's group or category, it's still not going to perfectly reflect him or her as a person.

 

[bobhikes]

How about referring to the person by name?

All this stuff about deciding on the proper term for a group of people ignores the fact that it's usually better to think of people as unique individuals, not as groups. No matter what descriptor you use for a person's group or category, it's still not going to perfectly reflect him or her as a person.

agreed

 

[McBell]

If you can provide a valid definition of a Blackman or Whiteman then I am wrong. Otherwise say what you want, I am right.

A blackman has dark skin.
A whiteman has light skin.


that was rather easy.

 

[McBell]

Accepted doesn't mean right.

Fair enough.
However, YOUR having a hang up with certain words does not make it wrong either.

But what I really wanted to point out that your definitions of Black and Brown aren't excepted in the United States.

I have no idea where you got this from, but it is just plain flat out not true.

Brown is pretty much taboo and not used in the United States.

Nor is this.

However, A cat is still a cat with all of us.

Except my wife, who calls our cats son and daughter...
Not with my daughters who call our cats brother and sister...

And Like Kathryn said, Red, Yellow and all the other colors people used in the past are pretty much considered racist remarks.

And contrary to what you may think, the terms are still use to this day.

We now call them asians and indians and with indians refer to native or hindu.

Wow.
Are you seriously going to promote the idea that Native Americans are "indians"?

But for some reason Black and White are still acceptable terms.

Make up your mind.
Either they are accepted terms or they are not.

 

[bobhikes]

A blackman has dark skin.
A whiteman has light skin.


that was rather easy.

Yep rather easy yet still untrue for most people's usage, Asians, Indians, hispanics, generally don't count in either group.

 

[beenie]

How about referring to the person by name?

All this stuff about deciding on the proper term for a group of people ignores the fact that it's usually better to think of people as unique individuals, not as groups. No matter what descriptor you use for a person's group or category, it's still not going to perfectly reflect him or her as a person.

I agree, I'm assuming names are not known.

 

[bobhikes]

Wikipedia

The term "white race" or "white people" entered the major European languages in the later 17th century, originating with the racialization of slavery at the time, in the context of the Atlantic slave trade and enslavement of native peoples in the Spanish Empire. While first a social category, it has repeatedly been ascribed to strains of blood, ancestry, and physical traits, and was eventually made into a subject of scientific research, which culminated in scientific racism, before being widely repudiated by the scientific community.

The term black people is used in systems of racial classification for humans of a dark skinned phenotype, relative to other racial groups. Different societies apply different criteria regarding who is classified as "black", and often social variables such as class, socio-economic status also plays a role so that relatively dark skinned people can be classified as white if they fulfill other social criteria of whiteness and relatively light skinned people can be classified as black if they fulfill the social criteria for blackness

In the first 200 years that black people had been in the United States, they commonly referred to themselves as Africans. In Africa, people primarily identified themselves by ethnic groups

By that time, the majority of black people were U.S.-born, so use of the term "African" became problematic. Though initially a source of pride, many blacks feared its continued use would be a hindrance to their fight for full citizenship in the US. They also felt that it would give ammunition to those who were advocating repatriating black people back to Africa. In 1835 black leaders called upon black Americans to remove the title of "African" from their institutions and replace it with "Negro" or "Colored American".

Sure sounds like using Black and White supports Racism. I love Wikipedia.

 

[McBell]

But its not a group of people.

Yes it is

The group only exists in your head.

No they don't.
There are lots of people who have black skin.
And lots of people with white skin.
Not to mention all the people with other coloured skin.

Males exist, Cats exist. Black people and White people do not exist you are arbitrarliy assigning a value with your own bias's to either group.

Here we see your transference.
*I* am not the one attaching anything to the words black or white.
Just because you are, does not mean everyone is.

Is a Central american White or Black?

Depends entirely upon who they are with.
If they are hanging with me, they are black.
If they are hanging with my uncle, they are white.
If they are hanging with both me and my uncle they would brown.

I have worked with Central American's they run the gambit on Skin Color some would be insulted if you considered them white or black.

That is their problem, not mine.

Most consider language their divider not color. Why because their countries are small and close together. They are very similar looking nation to nation however they speak different languages.

Ah, so it is similar to how people in the USA distinguish themselves based upon what part of the USA they hail from..?

Russia is Located in both Europe and Asia are their people White or Asian or do we refer to them as Russian. In a mall how do you decide with out talking to them or being biased.

I would refer to them as that group.

Unless of course they are not in a group, then I would be wondering why you are so hot and heavy about singling them out...

You don't want a definition fine take any group(100 +) photo graph and label the people White and Black. Are you going to use any other colors. Why?

Duh...
If you are going to use skin color to identify the people in the photo then you would need to use whatever colours are in the photo.

There are more than a few mixed families now my own included how and why would you label their children white or black.

What would you label them?

Why does anyone feel the need to keep the labels of White and Black for people?

Do you still want that line drawn in the sand?

Seems to me that your problem is with the words used.
Seems to me you are not wanting to address the issue of what they words mean to different people other than to whine about how some specific word does not mean what some people use it for.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I agree, I'm assuming names are not known.

But you've got his package! Does the address label say "tall black guy standing to the left of the two white guys"?

 

[McBell]

Yep rather easy yet still untrue for most people's usage, Asians, Indians, hispanics, generally don't count in either group.

Herein lies the problem.

YOU have this hang up about the words and are trying to transfer your hangups onto me.