White Pride and White Nationalism

[Desert Snake]

Whatever one's skin color, people would be better served by taking pride in things that actually matter, like your health, appearance, conduct, accomplishments, family, and friends. Taking "pride" in categorical accidents of birth invariably leads to separation from "others" and a sense of self-superiority.

I disagree.

 

[Quetzal]

Just because one is proud, doesn't mean they hate others outside their kind.

No one is saying otherwise.

Let's just make this simple and not jump to conclusions about what a race or color signifies.

Given the rise and traction of the alt right movements, this type of discussion is important.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I disagree.

A persuasive argument.

 

[Desert Snake]

A persuasive argument.

Thanks

 

[Acim]

Whatever one's skin color, people would be better served by taking pride in things that actually matter, like your health, appearance, conduct, accomplishments, family, and friends. Taking "pride" in categorical accidents of birth invariably leads to separation from "others" and a sense of self-superiority.

How does it invariably lead to separation and sense of self-superiority?

And what makes for "better served" in taking pride in some things over other things?

So far, you've not presented an argument, but have made some interesting claims that are thus far just opinions.

 

[Acim]

I think the other thing that needs to be expressed in thread like this is that it is plausible to have more than one pride. Such that a person could have both white pride and black pride, or whatever. The inference seems to be if you have white pride, you disdain all others and see whites as superior. Again, such an inference would be on the person holding that, not the person claiming white pride.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

How does it invariably lead to separation and sense of self-superiority?

And what makes for "better served" in taking pride in some things over other things?

So far, you've not presented an argument, but have made some interesting claims that are thus far just opinions.

Yes, my opinion. Feel free to take pride in the color of your skin while walking around looking, dressing, and acting like crap, wanting to share (read: appropriate/steal) pride from other people just because you share a surface attribute. See how that works for you.

 

[Acim]

Yes, my opinion. Feel free to take pride in the color of your skin while walking around looking, dressing, and acting like crap, wanting to share (read: appropriate/steal) pride from other people just because you share a surface attribute. See how that works for you.

All funny opinions you hold. Got any more funny opinions?

 

[columbus]

Just because one is proud, doesn't mean they hate others outside their kind.

Not always, but sometimes that's exactly what is going on.
It seems to be very common among White Pride groups. People who haven't risen above anything or accomplished much at all want to feel like they're important because they are white. And, for instance, Obama is not.
It is not only a white racist thing. Some very annoying racists are black. It all gets confusing.
But there is, here in the USA, a big difference between celebrations of Irish culture, French culture, Mexican culture or whatever, and White culture. White culture is nearly always an exclusive thing. It's not the same as black culture, or Irish or Chinese. Those are nearly always inclusive.
Tom

 

[suncowiam]

Not always, but sometimes that's exactly what is going on.
It seems to be very common among White Pride groups. People who haven't risen above anything or accomplished much at all want to feel like they're important because they are white. And, for instance, Obama is not.
It is not only a white racist thing. Some very annoying racists are black. It all gets confusing.
But there is, here in the USA, a big difference between celebrations of Irish culture, French culture, Mexican culture or whatever, and White culture. White culture is nearly always an exclusive thing. It's not the same as black culture, or Irish or Chinese. Those are nearly always inclusive.
Tom

You're just making it harder for white folks to be proud of themselves without trying to offend others with this perception and stigma.

Whatever culture they want to define and label it as white, so what. As long as they're not preaching hate and supremacy, so what.

If you want to attack the racists, which I'm all for, why not just focus on them being racists and not being proud. There's a clear line between the two. They just don't go hand in hand in all cases.

You mentioned PC in our previous conversation. IMO, this sounds very PC to me as it reeks of double standard.

 

[columbus]

You're just making it harder for white folks to be proud of themselves without trying to offend others with this perception and stigma.

Where?
I am pointing out the difference between culture and Cultural Pride and race and Racial Pride.

I've been to a ton of cultural events. People who want to share their culture. Irish, Chinese, Vietnamese, Jewish, German, Greek you name it. They're all about sharing. "Try this food" "Watch this dance" "Meet famous dead guy through his writings" "Check out this style of literature, art or theater". It's endless and interesting. It's about inclusivity and sharing.
Less so with black events.
Even less with gay events.
White events seem entirely about exclusivity. White people are better than the other people. Here in the USA, nobody needs to share white culture. One can hardly escape it.
Tom

 

[Quetzal]

If you want to attack the racists, which I'm all for, why not just focus on them being racists and not being proud. There's a clear line between the two. They just don't go hand in hand in all cases.

The very foundation of the alt right movement is rooted in this very belief. Hence, the main reason for this posting.

 

[Acim]

The very foundation of the alt right movement is rooted in this very belief. Hence, the main reason for this posting.

Why didn't you specify alt right in OP?

Given how nationalism works (in theory), I can see white nationalism as being inherently prejudicial likely leading to superiority claims of white people that truly support it. Same would be true with black nationalism or gay nationalism, etc. But with pride, alt right doesn't alone get to claim ownership of such pride. They can try, but they'd be mistaken.

I agree with @suncowiam in that there is double standard at work here, and it is plainly obvious. Pride in and of itself is not the problem. To become a problem, it needs the explicit claims of superiority being mentioned. I think current white nationalists have no problem (really none at all) in laying claim to such superiority. But white pride in and of itself, and apart from the connotations would not be inherently prejudicial, nor would be exclusively discriminatory toward whites only. Again, plausible to have pride in more than one thing.

If somehow this is not sinking in for some on this thread, then I would think pride is the problem. I don't think it is that, but perhaps definition of "pride" would help. Notions of some things are inherently better to have pride in than other things are opinions, and borderline superiority complex at work.

 

[suncowiam]

Where?
I am pointing out the difference between culture and Cultural Pride and race and Racial Pride.

I've been to a ton of cultural events. People who want to share their culture. Irish, Chinese, Vietnamese, Jewish, German, Greek you name it. They're all about sharing. "Try this food" "Watch this dance" "Meet famous dead guy through his writings" "Check out this style of literature, art or theater". It's endless and interesting. It's about inclusivity and sharing.
Less so with black events.
Even less with gay events.
White events seem entirely about exclusivity. White people are better than the other people. Here in the USA, nobody needs to share white culture. One can hardly escape it.
Tom

You're attacking these white events because they chose to be exclusive among themselves and that they claimed racial supremacy... Got no problem with that.
Just like you mentioned with black and gay events, I've been to enough Vietnamese events that were very exclusive to Vietnamese. But I know they would have been accepting towards other races. This doesn't suggest that all white events want to exclude other races just because they're white events.

I guess I will have to concede some to your argument because I can't define a white culture. This doesn't conclude that all white culture is now a big melting pot redefinition of American culture.

Given what you and others have mentioned. In the long future, other cultures will have to concede that they no longer have a specific culture to be proud of. It should all be one culture that we can all be proud of. If this is happening to whites now, then why shouldn't it happen to all cultures in the future when we've all become "integrated."

 

[suncowiam]

The very foundation of the alt right movement is rooted in this very belief. Hence, the main reason for this posting.

I don't think it is the foundation of their movement. I think the foundation of their movement is their delusion of their supremacy to other races. The pride is a side-effect of such a delusion.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

There's no inherent evil or danger to society for being proud of a skin color. Being proud of something has little meaning as long as it stops there. People can and should differentiate between being proud and hatred towards others. Just because one is proud, doesn't mean they hate others outside their kind.

Pride in nothing that you did and is attributed to only happenstance of birth is not pride, but foolish arrogance.

 

[suncowiam]

Pride in nothing that you did and is attributed to only happenstance of birth is not pride, but foolish arrogance.

Well, I would agree with you that there is a fine line between pride and arrogance. But it just means we need to dig deeper to the source of the pride as we can't just make an assumption of the pride.

 

[columbus]

Well, I would agree with you that there is a fine line between pride and arrogance. But it just means we need to dig deeper to the source of the pride as we can't just make an assumption of the pride.

This is the main point to the thread.
Confusing pride in a culture and wanting to share the culture is completely different from pride in a characteristic like race and wanting to demonstrate superiority.
That's the difference between White Pride and Irish Pride. Irish Pride is inclusive and White Pride is exclusive.
Tom

 

[suncowiam]

This is the main point to the thread.
Confusing pride in a culture and wanting to share the culture is completely different from pride in a characteristic like race and wanting to demonstrate superiority.
That's the difference between White Pride and Irish Pride. Irish Pride is inclusive and White Pride is exclusive.
Tom

Again, I'm conceding to you because I cannot readily define White culture, but I'm not the best person to define White culture. Maybe you are and @Quetzal are the "experts" since I believe both of you are white.

At the risk of repeating all of this, I'll just sum it up on my end.

I believe that there could be white folks who have some definition of white culture and that their culture does not perpetuate racism nor are they racists themselves.

 

[Aštra’el]

I take pride in all that I am and all that I have become.