White student returns scholarship intended for black students

[Mr Spinkles]

You continue to act as if the vast majority of scholarships offered for students of Irish/Polish/Czech/Italian/whatever ancestry will not by the very nature of their ancestry requirements go to "white" students.

Yes, Kathryn. Most of the students receiving these scholarships will be white. But at the same time, most white students will be ineligible for these scholarships (recall the rectangles vs. squares exercise). In contrast, all black students are eligible for scholarships like the one in the OP. Let's not pretend this difference (whether it is right or wrong) doesn't exist. It's misleading to say a Jewish scholarship (for example) is for "whites only", when in fact it is for Jews only.

 

[Kathryn]

Yes, Kathryn. Most of the students receiving these scholarships will be white. But at the same time, most white students will be ineligible for these scholarships (recall the rectangles vs. squares exercise). In contrast, all black students are eligible for scholarships like the one in the OP. Let's not pretend this difference (whether it is right or wrong) doesn't exist. It's misleading to say a Jewish scholarship (for example) is for "whites only", when in fact it is for Jews only.

The vast majority of scholarships IN GENERAL go to white students. I posted the link to that information earlier on.

I'm not pretending anything. And I didn't ever say that a Jewish scholarship is for "whites only." Hell, at least one of the "whites only" scholarships I found only requires a person to be 1/4 "white," whatever that is!

My children and grandchildren would qualify for a "whites only" scholarship with that criteria for that matter.

Four people who would qualify for any "whites only" scholarship requiring that a person be only 1/4 "white."

Person who would qualify for a "blacks only" scholarship.

Now - what was it we were debating again?

 

[Mr Spinkles]

The vast majority of scholarships IN GENERAL go to white students. I posted the link to that information earlier on.

As would be expected, since the vast majority of students are white students. To be precise, the problem is not that most scholarships go to white students but that white students are over-represented (by ten percent). As the ThinkProgress link you posted pointed out (yes, I actually read it) this problem is caused by socioeconomic factors, not racism per se.

I'm not pretending anything. And I didn't ever say that a Jewish scholarship is for "whites only." Hell, at least one of the "whites only" scholarships I found only requires a person to be 1/4 "white," whatever that is!

"At least one of the "whites only" scholarships" you found? You only shared one whites only scholarship on this thread, you simply posted several links about the same one (the one-man show called the Former Majority Association for Equality). At any rate, rakhel recently posted a Wiki article indicating the possible existence today of two more of these "stunts", bringing us to a grand total of three.

Let's get real. For all intents and purposes, there aren't "whites only" scholarships and the occasional ones that do arise generate outrage and receive zero support from mainstream education. Surely any objective observer on either side of this debate will acknowledge this fact.

My children and grandchildren would qualify for a "whites only" scholarship with that criteria for that matter.

Right but would they qualify for a Jewish scholarship? Czech? Irish? I don't think most white kids would. Don't call a scholarship for Jewish kids a "whites only" scholarship, that's misleading and I suspect in this thread it's disingenuous.

 

[dawny0826]

He should have kept the money!

Too PC in my book.

I agree.

If anything, he should have been ENCOURAGED to keep the money. He applied following the instructions.

It was ridiculous to return it, when he'd done nothing wrong.

I'm not a fan of scholarships that utilize race as a criteria/requirement. I find it horribly oppressive and feel that these small injects in our society, deter from inclusivity.

 

[Kathryn]

As would be expected, since the vast majority of students are white students. To be precise, the problem is not that most scholarships go to white students but that white students are over-represented (by ten percent). As the ThinkProgress link you posted pointed out (yes, I actually read it) this problem is caused by socioeconomic factors, not racism per se.

I'm sorry - I must have missed how this is relevant to anything I have said. I haven't leveled an accusation of racism at ANY scholarship we've been discussing. I've also been very clear in my point that I do not see ANY problem with our system of private scholarships which target distinct groups, even if they target them based on skin color.

"At least one of the "whites only" scholarships" you found? You only shared one whites only scholarship on this thread, you simply posted several links about the same one (the one-man show called the Former Majority Association for Equality). At any rate, rakhel recently posted a Wiki article indicating the possible existence today of two more of these "stunts", bringing us to a grand total of three.

I found three as well. I believe somewhere along the way of this very long (and very repetitive) thread, that I gave links to all of them as well.

Does this even matter? I never said there were tons of "whites only" scholarships out there - I was challenged rather early on in the thread to produce any evidence of ANY "whites only" scholarship, apparently by someone who didn't believe such an entity existed at all - and I did so. Period. It was never my intention to claim that the market was flooded with "whites only" scholarships.

Let's get real. For all intents and purposes, there aren't "whites only" scholarships and the occasional ones that do arise generate outrage and receive zero support from mainstream education. Surely any objective observer on either side of this debate will acknowledge this fact.

You keep making this point as if it's relevant. There ARE several "whites only" scholarships. It doesn't matter, for the sake of the argument about whether or not they EXIST, whether they are "respected" or invoke outrage by "mainstream education." That has never had anything to do with any point I've made, so I really don't know why you keep bringing this up as if it has any bearing on whether or not "whites only" scholarships exist.

You know what this argument reminds me of? It reminds me of someone who claims that there are no albino wildcats in Arkansas. They challenge someone to produce evidence to back their claim that there ARE albino cougars in Arkansas. The person produces evidence of a couple of albino cougars in Arkansas, and then the person says, "Well SO WHAT - they're so rare, there are hardly any at all - and those that are can't reproduce so THERE."

Right but would they qualify for a Jewish scholarship? Czech? Irish? I don't think most white kids would. Don't call a scholarship for Jewish kids a "whites only" scholarship, that's misleading and I suspect in this thread it's disingenuous.

Wow, you are really adding to what I've clearly said. I have to wonder why you insist on doing this.

Look, more white kids qualify for Irish/German/Polish/Czech/Italian heritage scholarships than kids with darker skin hues. That's all I've said. I have NEVER said those scholarship were "whites only" and for you to accuse me of that is disingenuous.

In fact, I even noted the irony of the fact that my dark-hued kids and grandkids would qualify for any scholarship which required that a student be at least 1/4 white - or for scholarships offered to "black" students.

And, just for a laugh, I can tell you that all of them would qualify for any scholarship that required that they have German heritage. Three of them would qualify for scholarships for those of Czech heritage, and three of them would qualify for scholarships for those of Italian heritage.

But to answer your question - no, they would not qualify for a scholarship for Jewish kids, or for white males, or for basketball players, or debutantes.

 

[Alceste]

So, you do not think that one or two "whites only" scholarships should have stirred so much controversy, then?

Some people will get their panties in a twist about any old thing. It's not for me to say when there should or shouldn't be controversy. If I had a magic wand I could wave to eradicate controversy, gay marriage, first trimester abortion, stem cell research, global warming and evolution would be closer to the top of my list.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Some people will get their panties in a twist about any old thing. It's not for me to say when there should or shouldn't be controversy. If I had a magic wand I could wave to eradicate controversy, gay marriage, first trimester abortion, stem cell research, global warming and evolution would be closer to the top of my list.

It's interesting because the attitude of society at large is quite different from the attitude of virtually anyone posting on this thread. Some people on this thread (like you and Kathryn) are fine with identity politics. If you want to promote your skin color, including white skin color, great. In society at large, however, minority scholarships are partly about identity politics and partly about leveling the playing field, but neither are considered to be legitimate reasons for Caucasian scholarships.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Kathryn,

It's not my intention to get into a big debate about your grandkids, or what you think you said on this thread. Let's just agree that whites-only scholarships do exist (as you and rakhel have shown) but that they are also very rare, and treated in mainstream society totally differently from other racial scholarships (as I have shown).

As I said above, it's interesting to consider what the consequences would be if society at large actually adopted the attitudes expressed by you and Alceste. Proud of your race or heritage? By all means, create a scholarship for kids of your particular ethnic group. Even for white kids. If that was all there was to it, then we would expect the 80% white part of the population to proudly and unashamedly to promote its own interests, and that consequently minorities would be ineligible for 80% of racially-based scholarships. This is not an "even the playing field" mentality, this is a "promote your own group" mentality. It is precisely because as a society we have rejected such a mentality that "whites-only" scholarships are seen as inappropriate. I suspect Alceste and Kathryn are only able to get away with arguing they have no problem with "whites only" scholarships because, in fact, most of society does have a problem with it. If society adopted Alceste and Kathryn's attitudes perhaps most racial scholarships would be "whites only" and then we would see whether Alceste and Kathryn really would have a problem with it.

 

[Alceste]

It's interesting because the attitude of society at large is quite different from the attitude of virtually anyone posting on this thread. Some people on this thread (like you and Kathryn) are fine with identity politics. If you want to promote your skin color, including white skin color, great. In society at large, however, minority scholarships are partly about identity politics and partly about leveling the playing field, but neither are considered to be legitimate reasons for Caucasian scholarships.

It's his $250. If he wants to use it to broadcast his ignorance regarding the rationale behind scholarships for underprivileged demographics, I say go nuts. I don't agree with him, but I can't see the harm either. So I don't think it matters.

 

[Kathryn]

Kathryn,

It's not my intention to get into a big debate about your grandkids, or what you think you said on this thread. Let's just agree that whites-only scholarships do exist (as you and rakhel have shown) but that they are also very rare, and treated in mainstream society totally differently from other racial scholarships (as I have shown).

As I said above, it's interesting to consider what the consequences would be if society at large actually adopted the attitudes expressed by you and Alceste. Proud of your race or heritage? By all means, create a scholarship for kids of your particular ethnic group. Even for white kids. If that was all there was to it, then we would expect the 80% white part of the population to proudly and unashamedly to promote its own interests, and that consequently minorities would be ineligible for 80% of racially-based scholarships. This is not an "even the playing field" mentality, this is a "promote your own group" mentality. It is precisely because as a society we have rejected such a mentality that "whites-only" scholarships are seen as inappropriate. I suspect Alceste and Kathryn are only able to get away with arguing they have no problem with "whites only" scholarships because, in fact, most of society does have a problem with it. If society adopted Alceste and Kathryn's attitudes perhaps most racial scholarships would be "whites only" and then we would see whether Alceste and Kathryn really would have a problem with it.

The question has never been "Will people get mad about it?" on this thread. Sure they will. People will also get mad about "black only" scholarships - as we've seen on this thread, and on the news.

I don't want there to be a preponderance of scholarships that by their very nature may end up in more white student's bank accounts than minorities - but I am not overly concerned if there are, because white students are the majority of students in the US.

I also am not overly concerned about scholarships geared toward "black students only."

That's not saying I LIKE those sorts of scholarships, or that I would set one up myself, or even encourage anyone I knew to apply for one. I don't have a strong opinion either way. There are many, many scholarships out there that no one - NO ONE, regardless of color, ever even applies for. Money left on the table every year.

Back to the OP, from what I understand, the student returned the scholarship voluntarily and was not pressured by the scholarship fund in question to return it.

White student lauded after returning college scholarship meant for blacks - U.S. News

It's all good. In the words of the student himself, "It's no big deal."

 

[Mr Spinkles]

The question has never been "Will people get mad about it?" on this thread. Sure they will. People will also get mad about "black only" scholarships - as we've seen on this thread, and on the news.

Right. I'm not claiming that you can't find someone, somewhere, who will get mad about something. I said that minority scholarships are "treated in mainstream society totally differently". That would remain true even if people exist who will "get mad about" any sort of scholarship. Do you disagree?

 

[Kathryn]

Right. I'm not claiming that you can't find someone, somewhere, who will get mad about something. I said that minority scholarships are "treated in mainstream society totally differently". That would remain true even if people exist who will "get mad about" any sort of scholarship. Do you disagree?

LOL well that's not all you said - but on this point we can agree.

 

[Alceste]

It's interesting because the attitude of society at large is quite different from the attitude of virtually anyone posting on this thread. Some people on this thread (like you and Kathryn) are fine with identity politics. If you want to promote your skin color, including white skin color, great. In society at large, however, minority scholarships are partly about identity politics and partly about leveling the playing field, but neither are considered to be legitimate reasons for Caucasian scholarships.

I don't believe "society at large" shares any particular scholarship related ideology. The fact that you can find a few papers hollering about a thing on one side or the other doesn't necessarily indicate a pervasive, unified feeling on the subject among all mankind. Obviously at least one person believes strongly enough that the deck is currently unfairly stacked against caucasians to have created a scholarship for them. Why should I care what he does with his $250?

 

[Karl Streicher]

He earned it but if he is so weak minded that he returned it due to taught white guilt then no he doesn't deserve it.

 

[dust1n]

Look like the returning had more to do with the fact the kid was getting laughter during the rewards process, which may have lead him to believe that keeping the award would have caused more damage than good for him. Don't know really though.. It's dangerous to supplant intentions behind peoples' actions, especially if we aren't there to see them.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I don't believe "society at large" shares any particular scholarship related ideology.

Hmm well looking at the facts so far I don't see it that way. So far on this thread, we have seen:

Whites-only scholarships:

- There only a few of them (perhaps three) for as much as $500.

- These scholarships are jokes. They're controversial "stunts" which spark headlines of "outrage". One hasn't even awarded a single scholarship. Another went broke after a short while. Two of them were created by just single, disgruntled kids.

- They are explicitly not supported by colleges, state institutions, national organizations, etc. Even the Republican Party disowned one. An administrator at the college where one of these students started such a scholarship took pains to explicitly distance the college from the scholarship, saying the student acted completely on his own. No pride was expressed in the fact that a student took the initiative and created a scholarship. That's because this scholarship is embarrassing to be associated with.
​

Minority scholarships:

- They appear to be uncountable, offering thousands or tens of thousands of dollars. Here's a partial list. No comparable list could be found for white/Caucasian scholarships, even though 80% of the population is Caucasian. These facts are inexplicable unless, contrary to your assertion, society at large does share a particular scholarship-related ideology.

- They are well-established and respected, many are large nation-wide organizations such as the Gates Millennium Scholars, United Negro College Fund, Hispanic College Fund, etc.

- Spokespersons for state and educational institutions are not taking pains to distance themselves from these scholarships. Notice the Riverside high school in the OP did not distance itself from the MLK scholarship. Controversy did not erupt when a senior citizens group founded the scholarship, but only when a white student accepted the award.
​

 

[Kathryn]

If a student applied for a scholarship based on Czech ancestry - and was not of Czech ancestry, I would expect him/her to return the scholarship as well, and it might well make national news also.

 

[Panda]

I think there are many double standards when it comes to these sort of scholarships. I personally don't think race or ethnicity should ever be a reasonable criteria to judge them on.

 

[dust1n]

My point was never really addressed I notice. If whites still get 10% more of the scholarship funds even when blacks have scholarships just for them, then what harm is the black specific scholarships causing? If the black specific scholarships suddenly become socioeconomic scholarships, why would you not expect whites to get 10% more of those than blacks also?

 

[Panda]

My point was never really addressed I notice. If whites still get 10% more of the scholarship funds even when blacks have scholarships just for them, then what harm is the black specific scholarships causing? If the black specific scholarships suddenly become socioeconomic scholarships, why would you not expect whites to get 10% more of those than blacks also?

Does that take into account differences in population number? Or differences in applying for them?