Who caused Satan or the devil rebel

[Desert Snake]

Yeah, we know how Lucifer came to be a title of Satan. Some of the Left Hand Path accept that and some don't. Depends on the person.

Aha!! I see...muaahahahahaha

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Lucifer believed it is “better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heaven”. He was blinded by his own light. He didn’t realize he was not the source of his radiance but a reflection of the light. Call it pride, arrogance whatever you like. He is the source of unrest. With pride our work is never finished. We always have to prove ourselves.

It's only an assumption that he rebelled out of pride or arrogance. Most Christians don't want to question exactly what would lead a being to rebel against Yahweh, as we have usually only been told only one side of the story. Lucifer is the first freethinker to forge their own path and think for themselves instead of submitting to enslaving, stagnated and stifling authoritarian order.

 

[InChrist]

It's only an assumption that he rebelled out of pride or arrogance. Most Christians don't want to question exactly what would lead a being to rebel against Yahweh, as we have usually only been told only one side of the story. Lucifer is the first freethinker to forge their own path and think for themselves instead of submitting to enslaving, stagnated and stifling authoritarian order.

I would not call Lucifer a freethinker, but rather a being blinded by his pride. The Bible clearly states that he desired to exalt himself above God. That is pride in his own false estimation of his ability in comparison to God. Only a fool so blinded his own self-conceit would think hem as a created being, could be equal to or above the Creator, not someone who is thinking freely or clearly.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I would not call Lucifer a freethinker, but rather a being blinded by his pride. The Bible clearly states that he desired to exalt himself above God. That is pride in his own false estimation of his ability in comparison to God. Only a fool so blinded his own self-conceit would think hem as a created being, could be equal to or above the Creator, not someone who is thinking freely or clearly.

Bible Student has already pointed out that Isaiah 14 was not referring to any fallen angel or whatever. Christians made that up centuries after the fact and it is mostly coming from Paradise Lost and not anything the Bible says.

 

[InChrist]

Bible Student has already pointed out that Isaiah 14 was not referring to any fallen angel or whatever. Christians made that up centuries after the fact and it is mostly coming from Paradise Lost and not anything the Bible says.

Thanks for mentioning that, but Bible Student is not my authority. The scriptures say what they say in reference to Lucifier/satan and that is the only perspective I base my view upon. Isaiah 14 along with other passages throughout the scriptures leave no doubt that Lucifer is a fallen angel, now called satan.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Thanks for mentioning that, but Bible Student is not my authority. The scriptures say what they say in reference to Lucifier/satan and that is the only perspective I base my view upon. Isaiah 14 along with other passages throughout the scriptures leave no doubt that Lucifer is a fallen angel, now called satan.

Except that Isaiah 14 isn't referring to a fallen angel or angel at all. It's mocking the King of Babylon and the chapter clearly states that:

"3 On the day the Lord gives you relief from your suffering and turmoil and from the harsh labor forced on you, 4 you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:"

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+14&version=NIV

Lucifer wouldn't be the name of any Hebrew angel, anyway. All of the angels have Hebrew names usually ending in "-el". Lucifer is a Latin term that only came to be associated with the Christian version of Satan because the KJV retained the Latin "Lucifer" in its translation, instead of translating the word into English. In fact, an early Christian bishop took the name Lucifer, so the term obviously wasn't associated with anything negative during the early centuries of Christianity. Lucifer of Cagliari - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Basically, the Christian idea of Satan is mostly a product of post-Biblical developments and folklore that came about centuries later. The Satan of the Bible is pretty "bare bones" as far as character development goes.

 

[InChrist]

Except that Isaiah 14 isn't referring to a fallen angel or angel at all. It's mocking the King of Babylon and the chapter clearly states that:

"3 On the day the Lord gives you relief from your suffering and turmoil and from the harsh labor forced on you, 4 you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:"

Really...and when do you suppose the King of Babylon... fell from heaven (“How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! Is. 14:11)?



"Question: I would really like some input on whether Satan and Lucifer are one and the same. Some say yes, others, a firm no.

Response: We are convinced by Scripture that Lucifer and Satan are the same entity. We recognize that there are those who seek to deny that Isaiah 14 refers to Satan, limiting the passage only to the King of Babylon. Yet, exactly like Ezekiel:28:12-18, this passage speaks of an individual who transcends an earthly king. The statement made in Isaiah:14:12 is, “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning.” Clearly, the king of Babylon never fell from heaven, just as the earthly king of Tyrus was never “in Eden” (Ezekiel:28:13).
It has been pointed out that the word “Lucifer” appears in only some translations of Isaiah:14:12 and that Lucifer is a Latin word. Isaiah was originally written in Hebrew. Translated, the word “Lucifer” means “light bearer” and was the Latin equivalent of the Hebrew Heylel ben Shachar . This Hebrew term means “shining one, son of the dawn The descriptions we read in Isaiah:14:12-20 and Ezekiel:28:12-18 establish him as the enemy of God called “the serpent” in Genesis:3:1 and Satan in Job:1:6 and other places. Again, his activities clearly transcend earthly entities. "'

Excerpt from: Question: I would really like some input on whether Satan and Lucifer are one and the same. Some say yes, others, a firm no. | thebereancall.org

[/quote]

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Really...and when do you suppose the King of Babylon... fell from heaven (“How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! Is. 14:11)?

Have you ever heard of a metaphor? The Jews did not and still do not believe in any angelic revolt against Yahweh. They don't believe the angels have free will. In the context of that passage, it's probably a metaphor for the King falling from power.

Also, that verse may be a remnant of Canaanite and Babylonian mythology:

Mythology behind Isaiah 14:12

In ancient Canaanite mythology, the morning star is pictured as a god, Attar, who attempted to occupy the throne of Ba'al and, finding he was unable to do so, descended and ruled the underworld.[31][32] The original myth may have been about a lesser god Helel trying to dethrone the Canaanite high god El who lived on a mountain to the north.[33][34] Hermann Gunkel's reconstruction of the myth told of a mighty warrior called Hêlal, whose ambition it was to ascend higher than all the other stellar divinities, but who had to descend to the depths; it thus portrayed as a battle the process by which the bright morning star fails to reach the highest point in the sky before being faded out by the rising sun.[35]
Planet Venus rising above the horizon at dawn


Similarities have been noted with the East Semitic story of Ishtar's or Inanna's descent into the underworld,[34] Ishtar and Inanna being associated with the planet Venus.[36] A connection has been seen also with the Babylonian myth of Etana. The Jewish Encyclopedia comments:

"The brilliancy of the morning star, which eclipses all other stars, but is not seen during the night, may easily have given rise to a myth such as was told of Ethana and Zu: he was led by his pride to strive for the highest seat among the star-gods on the northern mountain of the gods ... but was hurled down by the supreme ruler of the Babylonian Olympus."[37] The Greek myth of Phaethon, whose name, like that of הֵילֵל, means "Shining One", has also been seen as similar.[35]

​

The Eerdmans Commentary on the Bible points out that no evidence has been found of any Canaanite myth of a god being thrown from heaven, as in Isaiah 14:12. It concludes that the closest parallels with Isaiah's description of the king of Babylon as a fallen morning star cast down from heaven are to be found not in any lost Canaanite and other myths but in traditional ideas of the Jewish people themselves, echoed in the Biblical account of the fall of Adam and Eve, cast out of God's presence for wishing to be as God, and the picture in Psalm 82 of the "gods" and "sons of the Most High" destined to die and fall.[19] This Jewish tradition has echoes also in Jewish pseudepigrapha such as 2 Enoch and the Life of Adam and Eve.[19][37][38]
Lucifer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Also, I noticed you ignored that "lucifer" is a Latin term and so wouldn't be the name of a Hebrew angel and that early Christians obviously did not associate any negativity to it since there were Christians named Lucifer.

 

[InChrist]

Also, I noticed you ignored that "lucifer" is a Latin term and so wouldn't be the name of a Hebrew angel and that early Christians obviously did not associate any negativity to it since there were Christians named Lucifer.

The article I linked did address the point you brought up about "Lucifer" being a Latin term. Re-read it, if necessary.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

The article I linked did address the point you brought up about "Lucifer" being a Latin term. Re-read it, if necessary.

It doesn't address the points I raised. It doesn't address the fact that early Christians didn't equate the term "lucifer" with Satan, that the proper names of all the angels are Hebrew, that the Jews don't believe in any angelic rebellion and that the OT Satan is a servant of Yahweh. Also, Jesus in Revelation refers to himself as the "bright morning star".

 

[adi2d]

Sure is a lot of discussion in a non discussion area. I guess the rules only apply some of the time

 

[te_lanus]

Sure is a lot of discussion in a non discussion area. I guess the rules only apply some of the time

Think it should be moved to the religious discussion forum

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Lucifer believed it is “better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heaven”. He was blinded by his own light. He didn’t realize he was not the source of his radiance but a reflection of the light. Call it pride, arrogance whatever you like. He is the source of unrest. With pride our work is never finished. We always have to prove ourselves.

"Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven" comes from Paradise Lost, in which Satan is the epic hero struggling against a cold, absent, apathetic, self-absorbed God who should be overthrown. As for the line itself, it couldn't be anymore truthful. Even being the ruler of nothing is better than a life of servitude.
As for pride, the proud never have to prove anything to ourselves or another. It's also not the same as arrogance, much like how knowledge is not the same as wisdom.

 

[Nada]

We're not bound by Christian interpretations. To us, it's the same being/force with many different names/titles and cultural guises. Satan, Lucifer, Prometheus, Set (in the Setian understanding of Set), Samyaza, the Serpent, Samael, Azazel and many others could be said to be the same being/force due to the similarity of the myths. Clearly rebel Gods who defy some other God and bring forbidden knowledge to humanity seem to be a common motif in world mythology.

Yes I am aware of all those incorrect names.

 

[Adramelek]

We're not bound by Christian interpretations. To us, it's the same being/force with many different names/titles and cultural guises. Satan, Lucifer, Prometheus, Set (in the Setian understanding of Set), Samyaza, the Serpent, Samael, Azazel and many others could be said to be the same being/force due to the similarity of the myths. Clearly rebel Gods who defy some other God and bring forbidden knowledge to humanity seem to be a common motif in world mythology.

It is clear to me that even in Judeo/Christian mythology the being known as Satan-Lucifer is the great benefactor of mankind from the very beginning in enticing Adam and Eve to eat of the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil. "Thou shalt be as God knowing Good and Evil". And they, Adam and Eve, did eat and saw that they were naked, hence, they became Self-Aware. And became "separated" from God, hence, they became separate and distinct beings unbound from the tyrannical law of God, free to think and move in accordance with their own mind and will. One of the definitions of the name of my god, the Egyptian Set is "the Separator" (Set Apart).

Xeper.
/Adramelek\

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

It is clear to me that even in Judeo/Christian mythology the being known as Satan-Lucifer is the great benefactor of mankind from the very beginning in enticing Adam and Eve to eat of the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil. "Thou shalt be as God knowing Good and Evil". And they, Adam and Eve, did eat and saw that they were naked, hence, they became Self-Aware. And became "separated" from God, hence, they became separate and distinct beings unbound from the tyrannical law of God, free to think and move in accordance with their own mind and will. One of the definitions of the name of my god, the Egyptian Set is "the Separator" (Set Apart).

Xeper.
/Adramelek\

Beautifully put as always, brother. Lucifer gave us the freedom to determine our own destinies and attain Ascension. Funnily, the Genesis account proves that Yahweh was a liar and the Serpent was telling the truth. It says that when they ate the Fruit, their "eyes were opened", not "they died"!

 

[Twilight Hue]

He got sick of Yahweh's tyranny.

Yea. The more you read the Bible, the more Satan looks like the good guy.

 

[Nada]

Yea. The more you read the Bible, the more Satan looks like the good guy.

Satan was the one responsible for tricking Eve and causing Adam and Eve to inherit death through sin.How does that make satan to look like a good guy? If it was not for his treason against God we would not be in the situation we are in today.Look around you,this world is a projection of what satan thinks is a good way to live. Death,pestilence,poverty,pollution,wars,sexual immorality etc..

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Satan was the one responsible for tricking Eve and causing Adam and Eve to inherit death through sin.How does that make satan to look like a good guy? If it was not for his treason against God we would not be in the situation we are in today.Look around you,this world is a projection of what satan thinks is a good way to live. Death,pestilence,poverty,pollution,wars,sexual immorality etc..

Adam and Eve didn't die from eating the Fruit. It says that their eyes "were opened". The Serpent told the truth. It was Yahweh that cursed them, according to Genesis 3:14-19. Notice the language - it doesn't say "as a result of eating of the Tree...", it says "I will...". Yahweh made the choice to curse the humans, the Serpent and the earth as a punishment for eating the Fruit. Furthermore, there's no reason to assume that Adam and Eve were immortal in the first place since they hadn't eaten from the Tree of Life and, later, Yahweh barred them from the Tree of Life and kicked them out of the Garden. So from a straight-forward reading of the texts, Yahweh punished the cosmos because one of his creations (humanity) decided to seek knowledge and wisdom.

So this is Yahweh's fault. It's rather cowardly to blame humans, a lost and confused species on one little planet, for cosmic catastrophe. As if we're responsible for planetary collisions and stars dying. As if we're responsible for the fact that almost all life must feed off of other life in order to survive. We're responsible for the existence of disease, parasites and all the other brutal aspects of nature? If there is a creator, it made a flawed creation and creations reflect their creator.

 

[te_lanus]

Satan was the one responsible for tricking Eve and causing Adam and Eve to inherit death through sin.

Nope. That was the "Snake". Only after the "creation"/Incorporation of a "evil" entity (which was poached from Zoroastrianism during the Exile in Babylon) did the Snake of Genesis got linked to Satan (and mostly due to the Non-Canonical book of Enoch).

That's why in 2 Samuel 24 David was tempted by God to count the people of Israel, yet in 1 Chronicles 21 Satan tempted David, Since Samuel was written before the Exile,and the Idea of Satan as an evil entity didn't exist in Jewish thought. And Chronicles was written after the Exile, thus Satan as an evil entity was imprinted onto Judaism

Some Further Reading:
Iranian Impact on Judaism
A history of the Devil | Dangerous Minds