Who created God?

[waitasec]

The numbers represent something real, it is a language we use to get the point across.

i agree, but language is also man made...


the interpretation or the representation isn't the "truth" it's a man made tool used to interpret or represent the truth...


this OP is really about what is the better tool... mathematics or language

 

[PolyHedral]

i agree, but language is also man made...


the interpretation or the representation isn't the "truth" it's a man made tool used to interpret or represent the truth...


this OP is really about what is the better tool... mathematics or language

Mathematics is the most precise of all languages.

 

[jamesmorrow]

Mathematics is the most precise of all languages.

good. i agree.but how does any of this pertain to the topic at hand? or does it not?

 

[filthy tugboat]

all concepts, labels, and understandings exist as a result of the human mind. i dont understand your point.

I have to disagree here. What are numbers? Numbers are an abstraction, they are a description of the physical world. They themselves do not exist but they are representative of physical characteristics. If the human mind did not exist would that change the form of the universe? Would there be less or more planets in our solar system without a mind to count the planets? No. They are a representation of what is real and what is potential. What they represent exists without the human mind subsequently their meaning transcends(I really never thought I would use this word to support my own point) the human mind.

 

[jamesmorrow]

I have to disagree here. What are numbers? Numbers are an abstraction, they are a description of the physical world. They themselves do not exist but they are representative of physical characteristics. If the human mind did not exist would that change the form of the universe? Would there be less or more planets in our solar system without a mind to count the planets? No. They are a representation of what is real and what is potential. What they represent exists without the human mind subsequently their meaning transcends(I really never thought I would use this word to support my own point) the human mind.

no. a concept of the human mind does not transcend the human mind.... the german language does not transcend the human mind just because it is representative of the physical landmass now known as germany. you have it bass ackwards

 

[idav]

good. i agree.but how does any of this pertain to the topic at hand? or does it not?

Numbers created god.

 

[jamesmorrow]

Numbers created god.

but which numbers?

 

[idav]

but which numbers?

The positive and negative ones.

 

[filthy tugboat]

no. a concept of the human mind does not transcend the human mind....

Wait... I think you misread what I wrote. I said that the meaning of the concept transcends the human mind, the implications and the representation, not the concept itself.

the german language does not transcend the human mind just because it is representative of the physical landmass now known as germany.

The German language is not a representation of the physical landmass now known as Germany. A map of Germany could be considered to do this.

you have it bass ackwards

You need to read before you write.

 

[jamesmorrow]

Wait... I think you misread what I wrote. I said that the meaning of the concept transcends the human mind, the implications and the representation, not the concept itself.



The German language is not a representation of the physical landmass now known as Germany. A map of Germany could be considered to do this.



You need to read before you write.

bad example. i admit..... lets pick up on yours. the map of germany represents the physical landmass now known as germany. this physical landmass exists with or without the human mind. .......... i hope we agree so far... now make your point based on this example.

 

[Sleeppy]

Reality is represented with numbers; reality doesn't change apart from them.

 

[jamesmorrow]

you know what, lets go for australia because germany is landlocked (for the most part) and we could get caught up in the whole man made arbitrary borders issue.

 

[filthy tugboat]

bad example. i admit..... lets pick up on yours. the map of germany represents the physical landmass now known as germany. this physical landmass exists with or without the human mind. .......... i hope we agree so far... now make your point based on this example.

My point is that the map(assuming it is correct in every sense) is a representation of Germany(this is a much worse example than the one I gave with numbers, please consider that more seriously than this one). Without a human mind, that map is no less representative of Germany. All concepts that are representative of reality hold no less meaning without a mind to think about them or interpret them, they are the same regardless of interpretation. Numbers exist in the sense that what they represent exists. They are an abstraction of the physical universe, not something invented apart from the physical universe. They exist without someone or something to interpret and understand them, maybe not in the same form as we imagine or use them but they still exist.

The number of planets does not decrease if nobody counts them.

 

[Sleeppy]

The Sun can be represented as 'one' thing. Even without the human mind it'll still exist in that conveyed reality. Whatever can interpret it just might not call it 'one'.

 

[jamesmorrow]

My point is that the map(assuming it is correct in every sense) is a representation of Germany(this is a much worse example than the one I gave with numbers, please consider that more seriously than this one). Without a human mind, that map is no less representative of Germany. All concepts that are representative of reality hold no less meaning without a mind to think about them or interpret them, they are the same regardless of interpretation. Numbers exist in the sense that what they represent exists. They are an abstraction of the physical universe, not something invented apart from the physical universe. They exist without someone or something to interpret and understand them, maybe not in the same form as we imagine or use them but they still exist.

The number of planets does not decrease if nobody counts them.

i understand now. and i agree. is there a "therefore" coming up? or was this the whole point of your argument?

 

[filthy tugboat]

i understand now. and i agree. is there a "therefore" coming up? or was this the whole point of your argument?

This was my whole point, your views on concepts came as if you thought they didn't exist at all without a human mind. Perhaps I read wrong.

I trust you have encountered the notion from some theists that "immaterial concepts can't exist in a material world"? If you have, this is an apt and accurate response.

 

[jamesmorrow]

before we move on i would like to clarify that although "all concepts that are representative of reality hold no less meaning without a mind.." it is also true to say that all concepts that are representative of reality would not exist without a human mind. so even if reality stays the same, regardless of the existence of a human mind, the concepts representing reality can not exist without the human mind

 

[waitasec]

but which numbers? :d

0 ...

 

[waitasec]

The Sun can be represented as 'one' thing. Even without the human mind it'll still exist in that conveyed reality. Whatever can interpret it just might not call it 'one'.

it can also be represented as "a" thing too...

 

[jamesmorrow]

This was my whole point, your views on concepts came as if you thought they didn't exist at all without a human mind. Perhaps I read wrong..

actually that is my view on concepts. concepts are created by the mind and bound by it. if the mind dies, the concepts do not exist..... what the concepts represent however(which is REALITY) still exists.