Guy Threepwood
Mighty Pirate
(altogether) ohhh yes it isBlind chance is not the alternative to god.
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(altogether) ohhh yes it isBlind chance is not the alternative to god.
False dichotomy.(altogether) ohhh yes it is
This is nothing but a long winded word salad.There cannot be two uncaused causes, since, as stated, for every two things, there is a relationship between the two things. An uncaused cause implies no dependency & a relationship would imply at least one dependency. Furthermore, there must be at least one uncaused cause because otherwise, we would have a universe of just dependencies on other things and this cannot exist. It cannot exist because the dependences would never be fulfilled; for every dependency, another dependency would need to be fulfilled. Therefore, there must be only one uncaused cause and we call this uncaused cause, G-d.
What about pantheism? I don't see that in there.View attachment 6998
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Part 1 - Proof of the Existence of G-d
What about pantheism? I don't see that in there.
This is nothing but a long winded word salad.
First you must demonstrate an uncaused cause.
If you ever get around to doing so, we can move on to step two.
But the proof doesn't show either or. Pantheism would be the end conclusion as an alternative to theism. Besides, Catholicism is not the same as theism. Theism is belief in a generic monotheistic God, not the Bible version.Catholics believe pantheism is wrong.
The proof doesn't prove Catholicism, and it has a hole somewhere since pantheism isn't proved or disproved. If you can't account for all outcomes, then there's a vague parameter somewhere in your material. We don't have to find it, we just know that there must be one since you can't account for all options.Referring back to the First Vatican Council, if you look at the chapter accessible here, you will see that at the time of the Council the Church taught that God created everything from nothing - this teaching has not changed. In fact, I believe this chapter is very likely considered to be infallible Catholic teaching.
But not with the proof.Pantheism is incompatible with this belief.
It may be worthwhile referring to the First Vatican Council in the statement on the provability of the existence of God which is very likely infallible from the point of view of the Catholic Faith. See here for the statement.
I have developed a proof of the existence of God but I am not sure whether there are any flaws in it. Perhaps you could have a look at it.
I started developing it when I could not understand how to assume the premise used in Aquinas' First-Cause proof stipulating that all things had a cause (I think some ppl here had the same problem).
It is shown below in a mathematical manner as well as in a prose form.
View attachment 6998
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But the proof doesn't show either or. Pantheism would be the end conclusion as an alternative to theism. Besides, Catholicism is not the same as theism. Theism is belief in a generic monotheistic God, not the Bible version.
The proof doesn't prove Catholicism, and it has a hole somewhere since pantheism isn't proved or disproved. If you can't account for all outcomes, then there's a vague parameter somewhere in your material. We don't have to find it, we just know that there must be one since you can't account for all options.
Then it's not useful to argue against pantheism.I probably confused things by referring to Catholicism. Yes, the personal God of Catholicism is not the same as simply a generic monotheistic god.
No it doesn't.Actually, pantheism is disproved by the proof because the proof demonstrates the existence of a first cause (distinct from all other caused things) whom we call God (at least I am hoping it proves that). Pantheism, as far as I am aware is incompatible with this. It is a different belief and both beliefs are mutually exclusive. If the proof is right, then pantheism is wrong.
Well, that does not follow without additional premises.
Consider U = {a, b, c} so that a causes b, b causes c and c causes a. Premises are satisfied, yet you have D = {}.
By the way, the fact that U is finite is not in the premises either. So, the inference that causal chains must be finite is an invalid conclusion.
But the real killer is: isn't U a concept that exist in reality? After all, U is a concept representing the set of all concepts that exist in reality. If it did not exist
in reality, then the concept of all concepts that exist in reality would not exist in reality, which is odd.
But if it exists in reality then it is a member of itself. That is, there is a u, belonging to U, so that u = U.
So, does u have a cause?
You might say that sets of things that exist in reality do not exist in reality. But when we talk of the existence of the Universe and who might have created
it, we make the assumption that the Universe, which is a set of things that exist in reality, exists in reality. So, to assign a different ontology to containers
of concepts that exist in reality, depending on what we want to prove, begs the question by deploying special pleading.
...
A first cause fits with pantheism. Pantheism also fits with a final cause, and simultaneous cause, a no cause. The non-temporal and temporal in one entity, that fits pantheism, while theism does not. First cause does not fit Alpha and Omega, since it's the end. The First Cause argument only argues a first natural cause, not supernatural. And so on. Your proof has holes in it and doesn't prove a God that is anything. If you have to prove your God, then it's not God.
Also, Theistic God is outside and separate from this universe and us. The pantheistic God includes everything and is therefore a much larger and encompassing entity than the Theistic God. The Theistic God is smaller than the greatest. The greatest must include everything.
Therein lies the problem.Please give a definition of this supposed pantheistic god. Catholics define God as being the first cause, we use the name Yahweh ('I AM WHO AM'), etc. I cannot get my head round what you might mean by your pantheistic god.
Perhaps the point of formal languages, such as symbolic/mathematical logic, abstract algebras, analysis, set theory, etc., is the removal of ambiguity. Everything is defined exactly. However, your "proof" uses the same variable "c" for two different things, you use the relation notation mRn but then define it as having two rules, one of which isn't a relation, and you actually indicate your proof is over before it ends (among other problems). Rather than presenting your argument in both mathematical language and "prose", it would be more helpful if your "mathematical manner" was consistent with...well, mathematics. Otherwise, what's the point of presenting the formal (mathematical) version of your argument?It is shown below in a mathematical manner as well as in a prose form.
Perhaps the point of formal languages, such as symbolic/mathematical logic, abstract algebras, analysis, set theory, etc., is the removal of ambiguity. Everything is defined exactly. However, your "proof" uses the same variable "c" for two different things, ...
...you use the relation notation mRn but then define it as having two rules, one of which isn't a relation, ...
... and you actually indicate your proof is over before it ends (among other problems).
Rather than presenting your argument in both mathematical language and "prose", it would be more helpful if your "mathematical manner" was consistent with...well, mathematics. Otherwise, what's the point of presenting the formal (mathematical) version of your argument?
I do not see much of a problem with this. 'c' is a concept. D is a single-element subset of U.
Suppose you have an apple & an orange. I suppose in my thinking (in the 'proof'), that they are related at least by both being fruits.
The second rule describes the case of cause (a concept) and effect (another concept). I consider this to be a causality relationship (perhaps in metaphysics).
Am I making mistakes with this thinking?
I do not see this. Please point out exactly what you mean.
However, I think it still makes sense, and it might be for other people to rewrite the 'proof'. I simply want to try to get the ideas across.
You define the set U to consist of all elements c where c is defined as “a concept that exists in reality”. From that point onward, any use of “c” refers to this definition and this definition only, or should.....
Sorry to butt in here... but, you were attempting to use formal logic to make a proof. Wouldn't predicates be a very important part of such an attempt? It's like quoting the Bible without using the Bible to quote from, methinks. Also, formal logic means that you don't use informal style, doesn't it? They're at odds with each other. Formal v informal. Can you explain yourself a bit more about this, because it seems like you're contradicting yourself here?I do not need to form the proof using predicate logic and I think it is fine to use any informal style.
The substance of the proof, at a cursory glance at it, seems to have a lot of holes. Not much of a substance to a sieve. If it's a swiss cheese, then sure, but the holes don't taste anything. They're still missing.Please examine the substance of the proof.
There appear to be mistakes in your remarks about the proof (such as the use of the subset symbol, the single-element subset not being a set, 'c' being defined).
I do not need to form the proof using predicate logic and I think it is fine to use any informal style.
However, I am grateful for your feedback. I would be happy to rewrite the proof in other ways, in more formal ways, but a mathematician should probably still easily be able to understand it.
Please examine the substance of the proof.
I wish you the best of intentions.