Who designed the designer?

[Robert.Evans]

The universe is not a book. You're trying to dictate the answer with your choice of analogy. What's the "first page" of a library?

Which is the first book.
There can only be one beginning

The first cause argument is really an argument for AT LEAST one uncaused cause. What's your argument that there's NO MORE THAN one uncaused cause?

There are more after the initial. But there can only be One intintial One

 

[FearGod]

First cause arguments usually employ the premise that complex things like the universe need a designer and cannot simply just exist. Well then let us ask- would not the designer be much more complex, assuming one for the sake of debate? Who designed the designer? Did that designer also need a designer?

Do you think that there was nothingness that started everything ?
How can you explain that things evolved out of nothingness ?

 

[Gnostic Seeker]

Do you think that there was nothingness that started everything ?
How can you explain that things evolved out of nothingness ?

No I don't believe everything came from nothingness exactly. As others have stated, we might call it nothing because its not something as we know things.

I don't claim to have all the answers on how everything came to be, but it doesn't mean a god did it. That's just guessing where we have no definitive answer as of yet.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Which is the first book.
There can only be one beginning

There are more after the initial. But there can only be One intintial One

You're begging the question. What makes you assume that there's "one initial One"? How have you excluded the possibility of many initial "Ones"?

To make your position work, it seems to me that you would have to establish that:

- uncaused causes are possible (at least to start out with), and
- once one uncaused cause has happened, further uncaused causes are impossible.

You haven't given any argument to support the second point. Do you have one?

To use your analogy, you're effectively arguing that once one author has written the first page of his book, no other author can write a first page of their books. Why?

 

[Robert.Evans]

You're begging the question. What makes you assume that there's "one initial One"? How have you excluded the possibility of many initial "Ones"?

How can there be? Life here goes back to one; the universe goes back to one; there is only one first page in a book; there is only one first touch of the pen to the paper; there is only one first time when you are conceived.
If we call this One, energy, for the sake of the argument, how can there be more than one? When all the domino patterns are traced back, it must all come to one domino. That is what he shows us here. It is fractal.

To make your position work, it seems to me that you would have to establish that:

- uncaused causes are possible (at least to start out with), and

By necessity there has to be something that just 'IS'. Without that, you have nothing, and something cannot come from nothing (in the fullest sense of the word)

- once one uncaused cause has happened, further uncaused causes are impossible.

You haven't given any argument to support the second point. Do you have one?

There is further reflections of the One (Source) after the initial separation. It is fractal. There will be infinite. In one sense, you are one. You are one existence, and your mind at some point became conscious, so it said, Let there be light, and there was light.

To use your analogy, you're effectively arguing that once one author has written the first page of his book, no other author can write a first page of their books. Why?

No, see above. Many after the initial. One first book, one first page, a Singularity. After that, a library.
Do not all thing come from one idea, when traced back far enough? Do you not only have one 'original' thought? After that, it is fractal; it works off what has gone before

 

[McBell]

By necessity there has to be something that just 'IS'.

ONLY by the necessity of your argument...
If not for your argument, your necessity would not exist.

Your anoalogy still fails because as was already pointed out, you are in a sense claiming that that once a pen has touched a paper, there can be no more pens touching paper, there can only be one conception, etc.

You have not demonstrated in the least bit that your claim is remotely true outside your argument requiring it.

 

[Robert.Evans]

ONLY by the necessity of your argument...
If not for your argument, your necessity would not exist.

So you are saying that your argument is that there is nothing? And how does something come from nothing? I think my argument that there is something is better. I would have thought that was simple, even for a child to understand.

Your anoalogy still fails because as was already pointed out, you are in a sense claiming that that once a pen has touched a paper, there can be no more pens touching paper, there can only be one conception, etc.

no.

You have not demonstrated in the least bit that your claim is remotely true outside your argument requiring it.

I think you need to put your thinking cap on. Are you assuming that something physical is going to presented?

 

[McBell]

So you are saying that your argument is that there is nothing? And how does something come from nothing?

Seriously?
That is all you can get from my post?

wow.

I think my argument that there is something is better. I would have thought that was simple, even for a child to understand.

Interesting that you mention children.
'Cause it feels like I am trying to explain algebra to someone who has yet to learn basic addition and subtraction.

I think you need to put your thinking cap on. Are you assuming that something physical is going to presented?

I think you need to stop spending so much time defending your little box and pay more attention to what is actually being posted by others.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Seriously?
That is all you can get from my post?

wow.


Interesting that you mention children.
'Cause it feels like I am trying to explain algebra to someone who has yet to learn basic addition and subtraction.


I think you need to stop spending so much time defending your little box and pay more attention to what is actually being posted by others.

So no discussion then

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Attempting to make god logical always results in the butchering of both logic and religion.

 

[McBell]

So no discussion then

When are you going to start?

Or are you content with your out in left field accusations?

 

[`mud]

On a whim...I just plucked a book off one of my shelves...Cover says:
"The Evolution of Physics
The Growth OF IDEAS FROM EARLY CONCEPTS OF RELATIVITY AND QUANTA"
On the first page is an analog of a man working in a sunrise, maybe a sunset, that's all, just that analog.
2nd page is blank
3rd page is the title again plus "by Albert Einstein and Leopold Infeld ",
and the analog again, and SIMON AND SCHUSTER NEW YORK-1938
4th page says: ALL RIGHTS RESERVED-Copyright, 1938, Albert Einstein and Leopold Infeld
Published by Simon and Schuster, Inc.
386 Fourth Avenue, New York
First Printing, January 14, 1938 6,000
Second Printing, January 30, 1938 1,000
Third Printing, March 31, 1938 5,000
Fourth Printing, April 13, 1938 5,000
` -------
` 17,000
Manufactured in the United States of America
5th page is the Table of Contents, I won't list all of that, except for the page entry of:"The first clew", that's the proper spelling of the word "clew".
6th page is more of the contents, and the list of plates.
7th page is: "Acknowledgments", Thanks to all those who helped with the book
8th page is blank
9th page is the "Preface"
10th page is continuance of "Preface"
11th page is just a title: "I. THE RISE OF THE MECHANICAL VEIW"
12TH PAGE IS BLANK
And the 13th page is really the beginning of the book, it's page 3 of the book:
excerpts follow: The great mystery story...The first clew...Vectors...The riddle of motion...One clew remains...
Is heat a substance........and on and on, and then the beginning of the book....
BOY !!.....one can't tell a book by the first page can one ?
Nor it's cover !
~
'mud

 

[Andywelikandy]

God doesn't need to be created for God is the First and The Last. He is God.

No human mind has the capacity or the capability to understand or explain infinity. God Almighty Who created the universe is in Himself Infinity with no beginning and no end. Thus we are compelled to believe in an Almighty Creator God using just Faith. Reading Hebrews chap. 11, that's the only conclusion we could arrive at about the Creator of the universe Who is Infinite.

 

[Sabour]

No human mind has the capacity or the capability to understand or explain infinity. God Almighty Who created the universe is in Himself Infinity with no beginning and no end. Thus we are compelled to believe in an Almighty Creator God using just Faith. Reading Hebrews chap. 11, that's the only conclusion we could arrive at about the Creator of the universe Who is Infinite.

Well I agree on the general conclusion that God is beyond our mind's ability to understand.

Quraan 57:3

He is the First and the Last, the Ascendant and the Intimate, and He is, of all things, Knowing.

 

[Andywelikandy]

God was created by circular logic.

When you are able to explain where infinity starts and ends and when time started and when it will end, then only you are qualified to talk about the beginning and ending of Almighty God. By time I mean events following events and not time on our man-made clocks.

 

[Andywelikandy]

Well I agree on the general conclusion that God is beyond our mind's ability to understand.

Quraan 57:3

He is the First and the Last, the Ascendant and the Intimate, and He is, of all things, Knowing.

Jesus Christ declared Himself to be the First and the Last. Therefore, according to the Quran Jesus Christ has to be God. Btw, Jesus being a highly venerated prophet of the Quran, there is no way He could have lied about Himself! True prophets of God do not lie. If they do lie, then they become false prophets.

 

[Andywelikandy]

That question is one of the reasons I don't bother with "god." What designed the designer? And what designed the designer's designer? It's a question without end.

Maybe you are not willing to talk about a Creator God in this life. You sure will have no other choice but to deal with Him in your next life which is eternity future. Atheists who disregard Almighty God in this life will turn into theists on thier "way down."

 

[McBell]

When you are able to explain where infinity starts and ends and when time started and when it will end, then only you are qualified to talk about the beginning and ending of Almighty God. By time I mean events following events and not time on our man-made clocks.

Ah, so you are able to explain where infinity starts and ends?
If not, why are you talking about the start and end of your god?

 

[McBell]

Maybe you are not willing to talk about a Creator God in this life.

Or perhaps you merely dislike what is being said..?

You sure will have no other choice but to deal with Him in your next life which is eternity future.

Bold empty claim

Atheists who disregard Almighty God in this life will turn into theists on thier "way down."

Bold empty claim

 

[Sabour]

Jesus Christ declared Himself to be the First and the Last. Therefore, according to the Quran Jesus Christ has to be God. Btw, Jesus being a highly venerated prophet of the Quran, there is no way He could have lied about Himself! True prophets of God do not lie. If they do lie, then they become false prophets.

I agree that if they lie they are false prophets. That is why we believe the bible is corrupted. Jesus peace be upon him never claimed divinity. However we agree with many parts of the bible. Here are some verses from the bible that I find are important for any Christian to reflect upon.

Luke 10: 25-28 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tempted him, saying, "Master what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the Law? How do you read?" And he answered saying, "Thou shall love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind, and thy neighbor as thyself." And he said unto him, "You have answered right; do this, and you shall live."


Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, the first of all the commandments is, "Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord, and you shall worship Him with all your strength and all your might and all your soul and all your heart."

Matthew 5:17-18 "Think not that I came to destroy the Law and the Prophets. I came not to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily, I say unto you that until Heaven and earth pass away not a jot or one tittle shall no wise pass from the Law, till all be fulfilled."


Mathew 19:16-17 "And behold one came and said to him, Good teacher, what good things shall I do that I may have eternal life? So he said, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but One, this God. But if you want to enter into eternal life, keep the commandments."

Mathew 36-40 36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shall love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shall love thy neighbor as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Matthew 15:19 "But in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

John 14:28 "The Father is greater than I."

John 8:28 "I do nothing of myself"

Luke 24:19 And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people.

John 4:19 The woman said unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.

John 9:17 They say unto the blind man again, What do you say of him, that he has opened your eyes? He said, He is a prophet.


Jeremiah 8:8 8 How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the Lord is with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain.


If you study these verses you will wonder about two things. Did Jesus peace be upon him really claim to be the Son of god or did he even claim divinity?

Did not he teach his followers to follow the commandments?

Why was he referred to as a prophet in the bible three times?


In the Quraan and in Islam, Allah is the only One. The God that Jesus peace be upon him told his followers to worship. The Only God that Moses peace be upon him( along with all the prophets ) told men to worship.