Who designed the designer?

[psychoslice]

The designer or God, was designed by the one who believed in God, and this is all what religion is, a design by the original believes of that designed, which they called God.

 

[Robert.Evans]

All right. Maybe this will get my point across better:

You said that your argument about things needing causes only applies to "physical" things.

ok

u also said that God is a non-physical thing.

Ok, but he also can be said to have physical form within the lower realms of existence. There is a reflection of a God to a God etc.

What I want to know is whether you're arguing that God is the only non-physical thing,

physical we shall have to acknowledge here as being material. Is an atom material? It certainly isnt solid, yet it makes up all things. Everything is non-physical well you go down to its smallest level.

or if you're acknowledging the possibility that all sorts of non-physical things might exist, which might not need causes.

Everything reflects the One God. Some is physical and some not. Everything has a cause other than the One. Even God, as we think of him, ha a cause. God comes from the One, Source.

Well, which us it: do we exist literally or not?

It depends on what you mean by literal. The only one who is literal is the True God, the One. All other things are expression of that, thought expression.
We exist literal enough as far as we are concerned, but do we literally exist in a deepoer level, no. The reason for that is all that really exists is the One. Eventually we shall be like him. If my answers are not that forecoming, it is because I think your question are meaningless in my argument. No offence

 

[Robert.Evans]

The designer or God, was designed by the one who believed in God, and this is all what religion is, a design by the original believes of that designed, which they called God.

You are right. But this is not something we have done here, this is something that happens within the higher consciousness of God. God is the pinnacle of Self. We are the base level. Without God we would not exist, as he is the one who allows us, and gives opportunity, to express ourselves within the physicality that we live within. Physicality can also be spiritual

 

[`mud]

What caused the cause that caused the cause that caused the cause.....
Where was the beginning....what was there that created the first cause ?
Maybe we have our own god that was began and created Earth and the Sun and the Stars above.
Maybe there are many "Gods" out there, one for each and every galaxy, or sun.
And then comes the big question, what caused those ?
~
Maybe, to my mind, all the natural occurances that evolve are random entities.
Maybe we should give thanks to the natural occurances, for the good and the bad.
We call the bad occurances 'evil' and the good ones 'miracles'.
OK...whatever...but does your God really have any control over it all ?
If you think so, well be happy with that, leave the other people alone.
And you people that aren't happy with that, mind your own business,
do what good you can, do no harm, and take reality for it's worth.
~
nuff stuff....just a thought.
~
'mud

 

[Robert.Evans]

What caused the cause that caused the cause that caused the cause.....
Where was the beginning....what was there that created the first cause ?
Maybe we have our own god that was began and created Earth and the Sun and the Stars above.
Maybe there are many "Gods" out there, one for each and every galaxy, or sun.
And then comes the big question, what caused those ?
~

What causes your thoughts?

 

[`mud]

hey Rob,
The answer is.....
STUPIDITY !!
~
'mud

 

[`mud]

Maybe.....
MORONITY
~
'mud

 

[`mud]

Maybe....
INSANITY
~
'mud

 

[`mud]

Maybe....
REALITY
~
'mud

 

[Robert.Evans]

Maybe....
REALITY
~
'mud

haha... maybe you are right

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

physical we shall have to acknowledge here as being material. Is an atom material? It certainly isnt solid, yet it makes up all things. Everything is non-physical well you go down to its smallest level.

... so at a certain level, your argument that "everything (physical) needs a cause" breaks down because nothing is truly "physical"? That's what I'm getting out of what you're saying.

Everything reflects the One God. Some is physical and some not. Everything has a cause other than the One. Even God, as we think of him, ha a cause. God comes from the One, Source.

Why only one "Source"?

If one god can magically poof himself into existence, why not others?

It depends on what you mean by literal. The only one who is literal is the True God, the One. All other things are expression of that, thought expression.
We exist literal enough as far as we are concerned, but do we literally exist in a deepoer level, no. The reason for that is all that really exists is the One. Eventually we shall be like him. If my answers are not that forecoming, it is because I think your question are meaningless in my argument. No offence

All I was doing with that question was to try to figure out what your argument is. If my questions are irrelevant, then this suggests problems with how you're communicating whatever it is you're trying to express.

 

[StarryNightshade]

First cause arguments usually employ the premise that complex things like the universe need a designer and cannot simply just exist. Well then let us ask- would not the designer be much more complex, assuming one for the sake of debate? Who designed the designer? Did that designer also need a designer?

Does the designer need a first cause? If the universe can theoretically be infinite, why not God?

 

[Robert.Evans]

... so at a certain level, your argument that "everything (physical) needs a cause" breaks down because nothing is truly "physical"? That's what I'm getting out of what you're saying.

physical means that it has form. It all comes from the One. The One has no form. Everything else does

Why only one "Source"?

If one god can magically poof himself into existence, why not others?

How can there be more than one first page to a book? There has to be a singularity at the beginning of it all, even life comes from this, and the universe. That is why they come about that way in the first place

All I was doing with that question was to try to figure out what your argument is. If my questions are irrelevant, then this suggests problems with how you're communicating whatever it is you're trying to express.

Or pseudo questions. Questions are only relevant when they fit the facts. Otherwise how can they be answered.

 

[Gnostic Seeker]

Does the designer need a first cause? If the universe can theoretically be infinite, why not God?

I'll admit it could be so, but I know the universe exists

 

[StarryNightshade]

I'll admit it could be so, but I know the universe exists

Depends on who you ask. There are many who claim that even the universe doesn't actually exist. That we are "in the Matrix" so to speak.

 

[psychoslice]

You are right. But this is not something we have done here, this is something that happens within the higher consciousness of God. God is the pinnacle of Self. We are the base level. Without God we would not exist, as he is the one who allows us, and gives opportunity, to express ourselves within the physicality that we live within. Physicality can also be spiritual

At a deeper level your right, but most believe in the concept of god, most believe we are separate from god, that we are sinners. I myself feel that we are all God, and ignorance is the only thing that separates us from God, or Consciousness which I prefer.

 

[Thief]

When many believers say God shows them things based on their daily lives and speaks to them exactly how I think to myself, it sure seems like it...

I'm watching a program at this very moment concerning this type of topic.
A collection of statements by well known believers, atheists, and converts.

In the space of an hour, the basic questions of the exist of God was unfolded much like we do here, and with great resemblance to our forum discussions.
(science in the forefront)

I find the comment of converts most interesting.
They spent their lives talking down the arguments in favor of an Almighty, only to find themselve having to climb the fence to the other side.
(no particular religion was quoted.)

 

[`mud]

A lot of people still believe in an "observed God". I don't really know what that means.
Some of us are saying that there are a lot of things that are not observerd, like photons, and electrons and maybe protons and of course the spirits that roam around the cosmos, one of which is the (Jewish, Cristian, Muslim) God.
But as Robie says, we have to get very close to God, Question is: "How close" ?
Closer than a microscope and maybe closer than the angels on a pin point, while they're holding God up for us to see.
But I'm told that we can't see Him, except through burning bushes etc.
But...two for one...into one that becomes the spirit of the one,
through the magic of a swoosh of air cast upon the movement of shadow along with the imagination behind a butterfies wing !
I've heard that one somewhere before haven't I ? Shadows becoming causes, becoming an 'is', becoming causes of that single miracle.
Creation of one to many, and by many for one.
And this all becomes us.
Almost makes sense...I'll buy a bit of that pie...won't you ?
I think that some won't...
But it's a pretty good emotion, and serves the purpose of worship, doesn't it ?
~
nuff stuff
'mud

 

[allfoak]

It seems to me that the design is designing the Designer.
The Designer of course seems to also have designed the design that is designing It.

Our life is designed by the way we live it.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

How can there be more than one first page to a book? There has to be a singularity at the beginning of it all, even life comes from this, and the universe. That is why they come about that way in the first place

The universe is not a book. You're trying to dictate the answer with your choice of analogy. What's the "first page" of a library?

The first cause argument is really an argument for AT LEAST one uncaused cause. What's your argument that there's NO MORE THAN one uncaused cause?