Who Do Christians Follow Paul or Jesus(pbuh)???

[Faithfreedom]

Actually you didn't answered any of the Questions I posed , your answer were mere excuses----and the fact is most of the Christian do follow Paul's teaching its a fact and they admit it---unlike you

Your main question have been answered.
Ask any Christian, "Who is your Lord (ie Master) and Savior?", and they will answer you, "Jesus is my Lord and Savior." So that means they are following Jesus.
Paul's Lord and Savior is also Jesus. So he is also teaching what Jesus wants. Christians have the Holy Spirit in them. We know our Master's voice. When we hear Paul's words, we can hear our Master speaking through him. The Holy Spirit tells us so. Therefore, if it's right and applicable for our situation, then we follow. If not, then we don't. Jesus says the Holy Spirit will teach us (Christians) all things. Its true then, and its true now.

You still cannot graps what i am talking about. Christians are not chained slave to the written word of the bible like Muslims are to the Quran. There is no hope describing color to a blind man. There is little hope describing what the Holy Spirit feels like to a person who do not have it.

What did Paul preached that Christians are following?
You quoted in your first post, "Paul said god is three---He developed the concept of TRINITY".
Did he really preached that. I think not. More likely you misunderstood his message.
He preached, Col 1:15 to 16 "He (Jesus) is the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities, all things were created by him and for him."

Jesus is a creation. Therefore Jesus is NOT God. (but God has given him so much power that Jesus seems to us like a mighty god (not almighty though).
God created him first before anything else. ("the firstborn over all creation")
Hence Jesus is also referred to as "the only begotton Son of God". That is to say, Jesus was the only one that God personally created with his own hands, so to speak. Nothing else has that honor. After being created, Jesus personally created everything else that was on God's mind (ie "by him all things were created"). Yes, by all things, i mean that even time itself was created by Jesus according to the will of God his father/creator.

The majority of Christians believe in the trinity. But this is no big deal. Anyone following the way of love is doing what God wants. This means moderate Muslims too. This i have no issues with. But like grasshoppers, when under certain circumstances, and when a certain critical mass is reached, they turn to become the dreaded locusts. Muslims are the same, Under certain circumstances, they blow themselves up and take others with them. Now this is what i have issues with.
Other religions (or no religion) are harmless. To these i say live and let live.

I have to work now. The rest of your post, i will answer to later (if i am so inclined).
(what's the point of working so hard if you can't even understand the above?)

 

[Faithfreedom]

Actually your strong response showed that you are 'guilty conscious' about your religion , you don't want it to be discussed---If Christianity is 'right' why not show it rather acting like a idiot

Your strong response shows that the truth is starting to dawn on you. Don't fight The Truth (ie Jesus Christ) brother; The Truth will indeed set you free. Amen brother!

Actually they are but that doesn't means that i haven't research other religions --- infact I have studied all the major religions of world ---And it actually strengthened my faith in Islam even more

It means that you have "research other religions" with the intention of proving them wrong and inflating your ego. You are indeed brainwashed by them and your community. But do not worry brother, for i shall pray for you - that Satan will release his evil hold on you.

Infact many have converted to Islam just by reading Quran ..(snip)..

In fact, many have converted out of Islam just by reading the Quran. Pssst...ask Tumbleweed, ask Ali Sina,....etc

When I was growing up, I thought that Islam was just another religion. I thought all religions were alike. That they teach their followers to do good, behave properly, don't kill, etc. When i asked, muslims proudly tells me that Islam is one - that there no divisions like in Christianity where there so many different sects and so many different versions of the bible. Even when i was working, when my friend told me that Mohammad married a 9yr old girl, i thought my friend was pulling my leg. Boy was i WRONG! After all that violence, i decided to investigate for myself. I discovered that there were so many kinds of islam - with Sufism being the most peaceful to the most virulent kind - the wahabism of Saudi Arabia. Also there are so many different versions of Quran (32 if i am not mistaken - even Saddam had his own version made!).

Mark my words, muslims who have really read the Quran and hadiths and ponder about it, will abandon it in droves.

On the other hand Islam without a doubt(not even in the least) is the word of God and The Last/Final Testament from God to Muhammad(pbuh)

One would wonder why God took all the trouble to groom the Jews from the begining to be his mouthpiece with all the prophecies of Jesus' comming, of his herald John the Baptist, of reveiling his long convoluted plans only to throw it all away and give it to a non-Jew. C'mon man, all the prophets were JEWS! The crowning glory, the best of the best, the miracle worker, the greatest teacher, the pinnacle of pinnacles is Jesus Christ! Mohammad can't even hold a candle to Jesus. No way would God take so much trouble and then give it all away to an arab - and a blood-thirsty one at that! It just doesn't make sense.

First of all there is no such thing as 'MODERATE MUSLIMS"

There are only two kind of Muslims
1)Practicing Muslim
2)Non-Practicing Muslim

And yes Practicing Muslims follow Muhammad(pbuh) and we are proud of it and we live by his example

Yes, you are right. Non-Practicing Muslims are the Moderate Muslims. These i love very much. Thank you for being here, brother. It shows you that you are a moderate muslim - ie a non-practicing one (otherwise you won't be here; you will be following your idol out to get some blood somewheres - be it from kuffars or from your fellowmuslims)

And for Christians, I have not came a across a single Christian who actually follow the teachings of Bible/Jesus and i could give you many example

There you go again, using the word "follow" but having a different meaning in mind.
Can you for once, just try understand what i am talking about? Look, i will try to make it simple for you. Think like this: "If a Christian has Jesus himself in his heart, teaching him what to do, would he need to be slave-chained to every word in the bible?" Once again I'm a telling you, "We know our Master's voice!"

If Christian is a person who follows Teachings of Jesus but not worship him , then we Muslims are more Christians the Christians themselves

Are you repentant of your sins? Yes?
Do you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior? Yes?
Do you accept that Jesus has died for you on the cross? Yes?
Then welcome brother! Hallalujah! Praise be to God the Father and Jesus Christ our Lord and Master. Another lost sheep has been found!

Its not about where crime is reported accurately but why does rape occur on first place-----and in Islamic countries its 1000x less than Christian countries

Sorry mate, there is no such thing as a Christian country.

Wrong---he was a merchant so he couldn't be a 'clever battle tactician'

eh? then what was he doing wearing two chain mail vests? what was he doing raiding caravans? what was he doing with 20% of the war booty?

Wrong again he was ILLITERATE so he couldn't read or write

What! a merchant who cannot read or write! Look, one can learn the A,B,Cs...in a very short time. Didn't he learn anything from mixing with all the clever Jews around him? He should have gone for adult classes. What was he doing? Busy killing?

Apologetics at finest----bible clearly says follow law of previous Prophets

There you go again, using the word "follow" but having a different meaning in mind.
Can you for once, just try understand what i am talking about? Look, i will try to make it simple for you. Think like this: "If a Christian has Jesus himself in his heart, teaching him what to do, would he need to be slave-chained to every word in the bible?" Once again I'm a telling you, "We know our Master's voice!"

Where is that written in Bible??

Sorry brother, but i'm a lazy fellow. One day, if i'm so incline, i will look it up for you.

Actually most of the Christians are not following the both---they just believe that----you will go to haven If you believe that Jesus died on the cross for your sins, and that he is your savior, then you will go to Heaven.

There you go again, using the word "follow" but having a different meaning in mind.
Can you for once, just try understand what i am talking about? Look, i will try to make it simple for you. Think like this: "If a Christian has Jesus himself in his heart, teaching him what to do, would he need to be slave-chained to every word in the bible?" Once again I'm a telling you, "We know our Master's voice!"

 

[A Thousand Suns]

Your main question have been answered.
Ask any Christian, "Who is your Lord (ie Master) and Savior?", and they will answer you, "Jesus is my Lord and Savior." So that means they are following Jesus.

Where is it written in Bible that to be a Christian you have to say "Jesus is my Lord and Savior."

Paul's Lord and Savior is also Jesus. So he is also teaching what Jesus wants. Christians have the Holy Spirit in them. We know our Master's voice. When we hear Paul's words, we can hear our Master speaking through him. The Holy Spirit tells us so. Therefore, if it's right and applicable for our situation, then we follow. If not, then we don't. Jesus says the Holy Spirit will teach us (Christians) all things. Its true then, and its true now.

Paul was directly contradicting Jesus(pbuh) teachings ie

Jesus(pbuh) said (Mk 12:29)"Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one"----but Paul said God is three

Jesus(pbuh) never claimed divinity in fact he said

"My Father is greater than all."[The Bible, John 10:29]

"My Father is greater than I."[The Bible, John 14:28]

"I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgement is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me."
[The Bible, John 5:30]

I challenge you to show me a single verse in complete BIBLE where Jesus(pbuh) said

1)I am God
2)Worship me

You still cannot graps what i am talking about.Christians are not chained slave to the written word of the bible like Muslims are to the Quran. There is no hope describing color to a blind man. There is little hope describing what the Holy Spirit feels like to a person who do not have it.

Thats the funniest thing ive ever heard----And how are you a Christian when you don't follow the teachings of Bible??

What did Paul preached that Christians are following?
You quoted in your first post, "Paul said god is three---He developed the concept of TRINITY".
Did he really preached that. I think not. More likely you misunderstood his message.
He preached, Col 1:15 to 16 "He (Jesus) is the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities, all things were created by him and for him."

So you don't follow Bible but at same time now you are quoting bible--lol

And the verse you quoted is nothing new

A-"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation."

1)Man too was created from the Image of GOD Almighty in the Old Testament

2) Many in the Old Testament were too called "firstborns" of GOD Almighty:
Exodus 4:22 "Thus saith Jehovah, Israel is my son, even my firstborn."

Jeremiah 31:9 "I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn."


B-"by him(Jesus) all things were created things in heaven and on earth"

This is in direct contradiction with

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."Genesis 1:1

Romans 11" For from him [God] and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever."

"The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil" (Prov. 16:4).

I wouldn't be surprised that Paul lied here too--------Like I told you before Bible has been fabricated---And this proves my point even more

Jesus is a creation. Therefore Jesus is NOT God. (but God has given him so much power that Jesus seems to us like a mighty god (not almighty though).

Where is that written in Bible??

God created him first before anything else. ("the firstborn over all creation")
Hence Jesus is also referred to as "the only begotton Son of God". That is to say, Jesus was the only one that God personally created with his own hands, so to speak. Nothing else has that honor. After being created, Jesus personally created everything else that was on God's mind (ie "by him all things were created"). Yes, by all things, i mean that even time itself was created by Jesus according to the will of God his father/creator.

"the only begotten Son of God".----first do you know what begotten means----Its a animal act----what are you trying to indicate here

also this word begotten is thrown out of NEW REVISED EDITION of bible---because the scholars of bible said that it is fabrication

The majority of Christians believe in the trinity. But this is no big deal. Anyone following the way of love is doing what God wants. This means moderate Muslims too. This i have no issues with. But like grasshoppers, when under certain circumstances, and when a certain critical mass is reached, they turn to become the dreaded locusts. Muslims are the same, Under certain circumstances, they blow themselves up and take others with them. Now this is what i have issues with.
Other religions (or no religion) are harmless. To these i say live and let live.

Sorry to say your complete post was based on assumptions---far far from reality

 

[A Thousand Suns]

Your strong response shows that the truth is starting to dawn on you. Don't fight The Truth (ie Jesus Christ) brother; The Truth will indeed set you free. Amen brother!

I think you have different definition of truth

In fact, many have converted out of Islam just by reading the Quran. Pssst...ask Tumbleweed, ask Ali Sina,....etc

I said many but not all---and The Glorious Quran gives a complete description of people like them

"For, most of them follow nothing but conjecture: [and,] behold, conjecture can never be a substitute for truth. Verily, God has full knowledge of all that they do." [Quran 10:36]

And

“And when Our Verses are recited to them, they say: “We have heard this (the Qur’aan); if we wish we can say the like of this. This is nothing but the tales of the ancients.” (The Holy Qur’aan, Chapter 8, Verse 31)

And

Sura - 21 The Prophets (Al-Anbya')

[21:1] Fast approaching is the reckoning for the people, but they are oblivious, averse.
[21:2] When a proof comes to them from their Lord, that is new, they listen to it heedlessly.
[21:3] Their minds are heedless. And the transgressors confer secretly: "Is he not just a human being like you? Would you accept the magic that is presented to you?"*
[21:4] He said, "My Lord knows every thought in the heaven and the earth. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient."
[21:5] They even said, "Hallucinations," "He made it up," and, "He is a poet. Let him show us a miracle like those of the previous messengers."
[21:6] We never annihilated a believing community in the past. Are these people believers?
[21:7] We did not send before you except men whom we inspired. Ask those who know the scripture, if you do not know.
[21:8] We did not give them bodies that did not eat, nor were they immortal.
[21:9] We fulfilled our promise to them; we saved them together with whomever we willed, and annihilated the transgressors.
[21:10] We have sent down to you a scripture containing your message. Do you not understand?

When I was growing up, I thought that Islam was just another religion. I thought all religions were alike. That they teach their followers to do good, behave properly, don't kill, etc.

All religions tells to do good things but Islam apart from telling good things tells you a way to how to achieve it ie to finish poverty---give zakat

When i asked, muslims proudly tells me that Islam is one - that there no divisions like in Christianity where there so many different sects and so many different versions of the bible.

In reality there should be no sect in Islam and IF you read Quran Sectarianism is detested by Allah(swt) in Al'Quran:

-3:103 And hold fast, all together, unto the bond with God, and do not create sects amongst you.
-3:105 And be not like those who have drawn apart from one another and have taken to conflicting views after all evidence of the truth has come unto them: for these it is for whom tremendous suffering is in store
-6:159 VERILY, as for those who have broken the unity of their faith and have become sects - thou hast nothing to do with them. Behold, their case rests with God: and in time He will make them understand what they were doing.

If some Muslims don't follow Quran--its there fault

You do not have to be a Sunni, Shiah or Sufi to be a Muslim.To be a Muslim you just need the simplest of things:

1. Declare that Allah(swt) is the one God & Muhammad(saw) was the final Messenger & Prophet.

2. Follow all the five Pillar of Islam

3. Quran and the (authentic Hadis) is the ultimate resource

Even when i was working, when my friend told me that Mohammad married a 9yr old girl,

Its not 9 but 19----people who don't know Islam ---quote the Hadis related to this out of context

Here is complete reply to that

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2179292-post66.html

i thought my friend was pulling my leg. Boy was i WRONG! After all that violence, i decided to investigate for myself. I discovered that there were so many kinds of islam - with Sufism being the most peaceful to the most virulent kind - the wahabism of Saudi Arabia. Also there are so many different versions of Quran (32 if i am not mistaken - even Saddam had his own version made!).

Like I said Quran detest's Sectarianism

And there is ONE version of Quran in entire world the same Quran 1400 years---there is not a word added or subtracted in it in all these years--you can check it for yourself----Buy Quran in any part of the world---it would be the same

Mark my words, muslims who have really read the Quran and hadiths and ponder about it, will abandon it in droves.

Actually its the opposite, Muslims who read Quran have the strongest faith in Islam

I don't know why you hate Quran---but I challenge you to show me a single verse from Quran which is AGAINST humanity as whole----on the contrary this BOOK 'Quran' is sent as a guidance to mankind from creator

"This is the Book - in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who are (Muttaqoon) Allah-conscious." [2:al-baqarah:2].

This book also confirms the Law of prophets before it---thats why I said it would never go against the TRUE teachings of Jesus(pbuh) or Moses(pbuh)

Quran Chapter 5 Verses 46 – 48

And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.

Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.

To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;

 

[A Thousand Suns]

One would wonder why God took all the trouble to groom the Jews from the begining to be his mouthpiece with all the prophecies of Jesus' comming, of his herald John the Baptist, of reveiling his long convoluted plans only to throw it all away and give it to a non-Jew. C'mon man, all the prophets were JEWS! The crowning glory, the best of the best, the miracle worker, the greatest teacher, the pinnacle of pinnacles is Jesus Christ! Mohammad can't even hold a candle to Jesus. No way would God take so much trouble and then give it all away to an arab - and a blood-thirsty one at that! It just doesn't make sense.

Thats not just true ---for example Adam(pbuh),Abraham(pbuh),Noah(pbuh) etc were not a jew

according to Islam Messengers and Prophets were sent to each and every nation of the world---According to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), there were more than 1,24,000 prophets sent to this world.

". . . And there never was a people, without a Warner having lived among them (in the past)." [Al-Qur’an 35:24]

". . . and to every people a guide." [Al-Qur’an 13:7]

It is mentioned in Sahih Bukhâri, volume 1, Book of Salaah, chapter 56 hadith no. 429 Narrated Jabir bin Abdullah: Allah’s Messenger said, "Every Prophet used to be sent to his nation only but I have been sent to all mankind."

==================================================================

Also the Prophesy in Old-Testament certainly matches to Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) rather than Jesus(pbuh)


a) God Almighty speaks to Moses in Book of Deuteronomy chapter 18 verse 18:

"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."

b) Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is like Moses (pbuh):

i) Both had a father and a mother.

ii) Both were married and had children.

iii) Both were accepted as Prophets by their people in their lifetime.

iv) Both besides being Prophets were also kings i.e. they could inflict capital punishment.

v) Both brought new laws and new regulations for their people.

vi) Both died a natural death.


c) Muhammad (pbuh) is from among the brethren of Moses (pbuh). Arabs are brethren of Jews. Abraham (pbuh) had two sons: Ishmail and Isaac. The Arabs are the descendants of Ishmail (pbuh) and the Jews are the descendants of Isaac (pbuh).

d) Words in the mouth:

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was unlettered and whatever revelations he received from God Almighty he repeated it verbatim.

Deuteronomy (18:18):

"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."

2) Muhammad (pbuh) is prophesised in the book of Isaiah:

It is mentioned in the book of Isaiah chapter 29 verse 12:

"And the book is delivered to him that is not learned saying, ‘Read this, I pray thee’; and he saith, ‘I am not learned’.

"When Archangel Gabriel commanded Muhammad (pbuh) by saying ‘Iqra’, he replied "I am not learned".

3) Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is mentioned by name in the Song of Solomon chapter 5 verse 16:

"Hikko Mamittakim we kullo Muhammadim Zehdoodeh wa Zehrace Bayna Jerusalem."

"His mouth is most sweet: ye, he is altogether lovely. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughter of Jerusalem."

All the prophecies mentioned in the Old Testament regarding Muhammad (pbuh)

Yes, you are right. Non-Practicing Muslims are the Moderate Muslims. These i love very much. Thank you for being here, brother. It shows you that you are a moderate muslim - ie a non-practicing one (otherwise you won't be here; you will be following your idol out to get some blood somewheres - be it from kuffars or from your fellowmuslims)

I am not a moderate Muslim but i am a practicing Muslims who follows ever teaching of Quran---and like I said before there is not a single teaching in Quran which goes against Humanity

And for people who kill the Innocent they certainly aren't Muslims

There you go again, using the word "follow" but having a different meaning in mind.
Can you for once, just try understand what i am talking about? Look, i will try to make it simple for you. Think like this: "If a Christian has Jesus himself in his heart, teaching him what to do, would he need to be slave-chained to every word in the bible?" Once again I'm a telling you, "We know our Master's voice!"

thats your assumption

Are you repentant of your sins? Yes?
Do you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior? Yes?
Do you accept that Jesus has died for you on the cross? Yes?
Then welcome brother! Hallalujah! Praise be to God the Father and Jesus Christ our Lord and Master. Another lost sheep has been found!

Where is it written in Bible that to be Christian you have to do that stuff (sigh)---infact if you read Bible Jesus(pbuh) clearly said follow the Prophet to come

Gospel of John chapter 16 verse 12-14:

"I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth is
come, he will guide you unto all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me".

Sorry mate, there is no such thing as a Christian country.

According to a FBI report, in the year 1990, every day on an average 17S6 cases of rape were committed in U.S.A alone. Later another report said that on an average everyday 1900 cases of rapes are committed in USA

eh? then what was he doing wearing two chain mail vests? what was he doing raiding caravans? what was he doing with 20% of the war booty?

So clearly don't have the slightest clue about life of Prophet Muhammad(pbuh)

why don't you read his biography then ask about something which actually occurred

His Biography

 

[allright]

"I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth is
come, he will guide you unto all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me".

John 14:26 The Comforter which is the Holy Spirit whom the the Father will send in my name.
The Holy Spirit is the spirit of truth not Mohammed.

You will never find Mohammed in the Bible because hes not there.

 

[A Thousand Suns]

"I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth is
come, he will guide you unto all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me".

John 14:26 The Comforter which is the Holy Spirit whom the the Father will send in my name.
The Holy Spirit is the spirit of truth not Mohammed.

You will never find Mohammed in the Bible because hes not there.

Ok--lets discuss these verses in bible

John chapter 14 verse 16:
"And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever."

Gospel of John chapter 15 verse 26:

"But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me."

Gospel of John chapter 16 verse 7:
"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you".


The prophecy clearly says that only if Jesus (pbuh) departs will the Comforter come. The Bible states that the Holy Spirit was already present on earth before and during the time of Jesus (pbuh), in the womb of Elizabeth, and again when Jesus (pbuh) was being baptized, etc. Hence this prophecy refers to none other than Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

Also---"Ahmed" or "Muhammad" meaning "the one who praises" or "the praised one" is almost the translation of the Greek word Periclytos. In the Gospel of John 14:16, 15:26, and 16:7. The word 'Comforter' is used in the English translation for the Greek word Paracletos which means advocate or a kind friend rather than a comforter. Paracletos is the warped reading for Periclytos. Jesus (pbuh) actually prophesised Ahmed by name. Even the reek word Paraclete refers to the Prophet (pbuh) who is a mercy for all creatures.

 

[Faithfreedom]

Where is it written in Bible that to be a Christian you have to say "Jesus is my Lord and Savior."

Why are you so hung up on the written word? Oh, yes, i forgot; you are a muslim and you have this mentality about the written word. Your God speaks to you through the Quran - literary, and therefore you are stuck on the idea that God have to speak to his followers through some kind of written word. You guys are forever talking of lost books handed down by prophets. I keep telling you but you keep not understanding. It is very different with Christians. We are not slaves to the written word.

When a person accepts that Jesus Christ has died for his sins, he becomes a Christian.
Jesus then gives him the Holy Spirit.
Jesus is now a living reality in that person and they have a personal relationship and communion/fellowship. In that relationship, there is real communication.
So please give up the idea that it has to be written in Bible that to be a Christian you have to say "Jesus is my Lord and Savior."
When a Christian has the Holy Spirit, he KNOWS that he is a Christian, period!

After the in-filling/in-dwelling with the Holy Jinn, everything else is anti-climax.
You may be able to prove with clever talk that Christian do not follow Jesus or that they are following Paul or whatever. It makes no difference because Jesus is talking to us DIRECT. If that is the case, why do we need the bible? Like i said, we use the bible as a guide only. The Jesus in our hearts call the shots. I'm sure you won't understand this....(sigh) but hope springs eternal.

Paul was directly contradicting Jesus(pbuh) teachings ie
Jesus(pbuh) said (Mk 12:29)"Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one"----but Paul said God is three

I keep telling you but you keep not understanding.
Paul NEVER said God is 3.

Jesus(pbuh) never claimed divinity in fact he said
"My Father is greater than all."[The Bible, John 10:29]
"My Father is greater than I."[The Bible, John 14:28]
"I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgement is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me."
[The Bible, John 5:30]I challenge you to show me a single verse in complete BIBLE where Jesus(pbuh) said 1)I am God 2)Worship me

If you had read my posts, you will know that i agree with you 100% on these points.
(Why do i hear the voice of Dr. Ahmad Deedat here - tell me brother, were you one of his disciples? My condolences to your mentor, brother. Perhaps he shouldn't be so vocal against the Living God.)

Thats the funniest thing ive ever heard----And how are you a Christian when you don't follow the teachings of Bible??

(sigh..) Brother, why are you so dense? Ok, i will repeat it for as long as it takes.

Why are you so hung up on the written word? Oh, yes, i forgot; you are a muslim and you have this mentality about the written word. Your God speaks to you through the Quran - literary, and therefore you are stuck on the idea that God have to speak to his followers through some kind of written word. You guys are forever talking of lost books handed down by prophets. I keep telling you but you keep not understanding. It is very different with Christians. We are not slaves to the written word.

When a person accepts that Jesus Christ has died for his sins, he becomes a Christian.
Jesus then gives him the Holy Spirit.
Jesus is now a living reality in that person and they have a personal relationship and communion/fellowship. In that relationship, there is real communication.
So please give up the idea that it has to be written in Bible that to be a Christian you have to say "Jesus is my Lord and Savior."
When a Christian has the Holy Spirit, he KNOWS that he is a Christian, period!

After the in-filling/in-dwelling with the Holy Jinn, everything else is anti-climax.
You may be able to prove with clever talk that Christian do not follow Jesus or that they are following Paul or whatever. It makes no difference because Jesus is talking to us DIRECT. If that is the case, why do we need the bible? Like i said, we use the bible as a guide only. The Jesus in our hearts call the shots. I'm sure you won't understand this....(sigh) but hope springs eternal.

So you don't follow Bible but at same time now you are quoting bible--lol
(sigh..) Brother, why are you so dense? Ok, i will repeat it for as long as it takes.

Why are you so hung up on the written word? Oh, yes, i forgot; you are a muslim and you have this mentality about the written word. Your God speaks to you through the Quran - literary, and therefore you are stuck on the idea that God have to speak to his followers through some kind of written word. You guys are forever talking of lost books handed down by prophets. I keep telling you but you keep not understanding. It is very different with Christians. We are not slaves to the written word.

When a person accepts that Jesus Christ has died for his sins, he becomes a Christian.
Jesus then gives him the Holy Spirit.
Jesus is now a living reality in that person and they have a personal relationship and communion/fellowship. In that relationship, there is real communication.
So please give up the idea that it has to be written in Bible that to be a Christian you have to say "Jesus is my Lord and Savior."
When a Christian has the Holy Spirit, he KNOWS that he is a Christian, period!

After the in-filling/in-dwelling with the Holy Jinn, everything else is anti-climax.
You may be able to prove with clever talk that Christian do not follow Jesus or that they are following Paul or whatever. It makes no difference because Jesus is talking to us DIRECT. If that is the case, why do we need the bible? Like i said, we use the bible as a guide only. The Jesus in our hearts call the shots. I'm sure you won't understand this....(sigh) but hope springs eternal.

my post exceeded 10K words. I have to continue in next post.

 

[Faithfreedom]

And the verse you quoted is nothing new
A-"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation."

There you go, brother! Now you've got it right! :clap
Indeed, Jesus is the firstborn of all creation. This means that God created Jesus personally before anything else.

1)Man too was created from the Image of GOD Almighty in the Old Testament
2) Many in the Old Testament were too called "firstborns" of GOD Almighty:
Exodus 4:22 "Thus saith Jehovah, Israel is my son, even my firstborn."
Jeremiah 31:9 "I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn."

Moses was telling Pharaoh to let his people go. "Israel" as used here means the Jew community in Egypt. "Firstborn" here means the Jews are his chosen people. (please note: Jews are his firstborn, not the Arabs. God loves Jews; those who tough the Jews, touches the apple of God's eye. Imagine how angry you will get if someone touches your eye!)
In both cases here it does not mean one man.

B-"by him(Jesus) all things were created things in heaven and on earth"
This is direct contradiction with
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."Genesis 1:1

No contradiction here brother.
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth (via Jesus Christ)."Genesis 1:1
How could Moses have put in those words "via Jesus Christ" when he didn't even know Jesus' name? So its easiest to just leave it as, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

Romans 11" For from him [God] and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever."

"The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil" (Prov. 16:4).

Again there's no contradiction. Its the same case as above. You did not quote Romans fully (Romans 11 chapter and verse please. I did a brief search then gave up. Like i said, i'm a lazy fellow. I may do it later though.). Just keep in mind, God is clever. He just made one guy, Jesus, then Jesus created all that God wanted. Pretty shrew manager God is.

I wouldn't be surprised that Paul lied here too--------Like I told you before Bible has been fabricated---And this proves my point even more

Paul is not a liar. No liar will take on all those sufferings and hardships and poverty, just to make converts. A liar will have given up at the first sign of trouble.

Where is that written in Bible??

What? that Jesus is a creation?
Here in Col 1:15 "He (Jesus) is the firstborn over all creation.
Brother, why are you not paying attention? Why are you not using your brain?

"the only begotten Son of God".----first do you know what begotten means----Its a animal act----what are you trying to indicate here

Brother, your mentor Dr. Ahmad Deedat is strong within you, isn't he?
Brother, why are you not paying attention? Why are you not using your brain?
I did say, Hence Jesus is also referred to as "the only begotton Son of God". That is to say, Jesus was the only one that God personally created with his own hands, so to speak. Nothing else has that honor. After being created, Jesus personally created everything else that was on God's mind (ie "by him all things were created"). Yes, by all things, i mean that even time itself was created by Jesus according to the will of God his father/creator.

I am sure you cannot understand that. Mohammad cannot understand it. Muslims cannot understand it. They are all so dense. I tells it like i sees it. Without fear or favor.

also this word begotten is thrown out of NEW REVISED EDITION of bible---because the scholars of bible said that it is fabrication

Sorry to say your complete post was based on assumptions---far far from reality

Like i said, muslims are soo hung up on the written word. They have no hope of understanding without the Holy Jinn.
Without the Holy Jinn, muslims the world over will forever be spiraling backwards towards the 7th century. And when they have reached the stage of Afganistan under the Talibans, then they will have finally arrived! What a God damn waste!

 

[Faithfreedom]

i am tired. i will continue later. InshaGod.

 

[Big_TJ]

Well, my Jesus of the bible taught that its ok to drink alcohol but not to the extent that we get drunk. Why, he even turn water into the best wine at a wedding. He even drank some wine before his farewell, promising his disciples that he will not drink wine again until his disciples are again together with him in his Father's house.

Well, if this is true, why did Jesus of the bible gives (or allow the giving) of wine to persons that were already drunk???

Jesus says it is not what goes into a person that defiles them. It is what comes out of their hearts that defiles them. (hatred, anger, lust,jealousies, put your 7 deadly sins here, etc...). Thus Jesus declared that all foods were permissible.

But not all drink? If it is what come out that defiles, then why do Jesus suggest that it is not ok to be drunk (as you mentioned above)?

Christians show our respect to Jesus by obeying him.

Well, I think the essence of the OP is to critically analyze this statement. Are christians obeying Jesus or Paul?

 

[Renji]

Jesus commanded his apostles, "Go therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am always with you, until the end of time" (Mt 28:17)

See, the apostles (like Paul) did not preach anything coming from themselves, What they've preached is the word that Jesus have taught them, making the Christians as the follower of Christ and not of the apostle Paul or any other apostles. It just happened that Jesus instructed them to continue on preaching His word until the ends of the earth.

 

[allright]

Ok--lets discuss these verses in bible

John chapter 14 verse 16:
"And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever."

Gospel of John chapter 15 verse 26:

"But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me."

Gospel of John chapter 16 verse 7:
"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you".


The prophecy clearly says that only if Jesus (pbuh) departs will the Comforter come. The Bible states that the Holy Spirit was already present on earth before and during the time of Jesus (pbuh), in the womb of Elizabeth, and again when Jesus (pbuh) was being baptized, etc. Hence this prophecy refers to none other than Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

Also---"Ahmed" or "Muhammad" meaning "the one who praises" or "the praised one" is almost the translation of the Greek word Periclytos. In the Gospel of John 14:16, 15:26, and 16:7. The word 'Comforter' is used in the English translation for the Greek word Paracletos which means advocate or a kind friend rather than a comforter. Paracletos is the warped reading for Periclytos. Jesus (pbuh) actually prophesised Ahmed by name. Even the reek word Paraclete refers to the Prophet (pbuh) who is a mercy for all creatures.

In John 14:26 Jesus states plainly "the Comforter is the Holy Spirit" Like I said before youre making Islam look like a joke.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Jesus commanded his apostles, "Go therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am always with you, until the end of time" (Mt 28:17)

See, the apostles (like Paul) did not preach anything coming from themselves, What they've preached is the word that Jesus have taught them, making the Christians as the follower of Christ and not of the apostle Paul or any other apostles. It just happened that Jesus instructed them to continue on preaching His word until the ends of the earth.

Actually, he commanded that of his disciples.

Jesus never met Paul.
(Unless we take Paul's word about his vision.)

 

[Rainbow Mage]

1)Jesus(pbuh) told 3 times in New-testament that God is One

(Mk 12:29)"Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one"

(Eph 4:6) "There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all."

(Jas 2:19)"You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder"

Paul said god is three---He developed the concept of TRINITY Which is nowhere to be found in BIBLE----Trinity was doctrine derived 300 years after jesus(pbuh) death ---if it was a true doctrine Jesus(pbuh) would explicitly spoken of it but its not the case----The only verse close to TRINITY was in Gospel OF Jhon' In 'King James Version' of Bible But this verse is deleted in the 'New Revised Standard Version' of Bible as the scholars of Bible thought it was fabricated into Bible----Apart from that there is not a single verse in complete Bible which even remotely speaks about TRINITY

Actually Paul was teaching the oneness of God in that verse and not Trinity. You don't understand how Paul viewed Christ and God, he was a Jew first, and a mystic to boot. He believed that God was in all, as the verse says, and the body he is talking about is the unity of all mankind in a mystic consciousness of Christ.

 

[Faithfreedom]

Well, if this is true, why did Jesus of the bible gives (or allow the giving) of wine to persons that were already drunk???

I do not understand you. Can you tell me how you come by the above idea? I think the Christian stance regarding alcohol is pretty clear and logical.

But not all drink? If it is what come out that defiles, then why do Jesus suggest that it is not ok to be drunk (as you mentioned above)?

I think your logic is pretty weird. Its common sense (not only biblical admonishment) not to be drunk with wine. I hope you can see the logic of it and not ask for an elaboration.

Well, I think the essence of the OP is to critically analyze this statement. Are christians obeying Jesus or Paul?

I have already gave answer.

 

[Renji]

Actually, he commanded that of his disciples.

That's the problem with some biblical translation. Using the word disciples instead of apostles, which is what the Greek and Latin versions contain.

Jesus never met Paul.
(Unless we take Paul's word about his vision.)

Wasn't Paul become temporarily blind because of that vision?

 

[Faithfreedom]

I think you have different definition of truth

Jesus said, "I am the Truth and the Light, no one comes to the Father except by me".
ie Jesus is truth and light personified. This is the Christians' Truth.

All religions tells to do good things but Islam apart from telling good things tells you a way to how to achieve it ie to finish poverty---give zakat

On the whole, muslims are much poorer than non-muslims.
Generally, the larger the muslim population in a country, the poorer is that country.
Oil riches not counted.

In reality there should be no sect in Islam and IF you read Quran Sectarianism is detested by Allah(swt) in Al'Quran:

But in reality there is. Then, now, and forever.

So sorry you are tied to the written word brother. Its indescribable the freedom Christians feel because we are not chained slave to any written word. The word of God is written in our hearts.

 

[Pegg]

Paul said god is three---He developed the concept of TRINITY Which is nowhere to be found in BIBLE----Trinity was doctrine derived 300 years after jesus(pbuh) death ---if it was a true doctrine Jesus(pbuh) would explicitly spoken of it but its not the case----

Paul did not teach the trinity. As you said, it was introduced 300 years later...Paul lived in the first century - not the 3rd.

According to Jesus(pbuh) Law of Moses(pbuh) is still valid and if you read the Old-Testament Moses said there are three prophets to follow :

1)Jhon the baptist
2)jesus
3)Is still a mystery


But Paul broke the law of God----and told the law of previous Prophets isn't needed any more---According to him "Jesus fulfilled the law" which is in direct contradiction of what Jesus(pbuh) said:
Gospel of John chapter 16 verse 12-14:
"I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth is
come, he will guide you unto all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me".

The 3rd one to come was not a person...it was Gods holy spirit. Its the holy spirit which teaches christians...it was the holy spirit that gave the christians power beyond what is normal. Holy spirit is what God used to create the earth....it is his own power.

So Paul did not break the law. Paul understood that the 'one to come' was the 'holy spirit'....not a person.

 

[Faithfreedom]

Thats not just true ---for example Adam(pbuh),Abraham(pbuh),Noah(pbuh) etc were not a jew

Brother, you speak from a muslim point of view. To Christians, Abraham was the first Jew - he is considered by Christians (and Jews) to be the father of all Jews.
But yes, Christians do not consider Adam and Noah as Jews.

Also the Prophesy in Old-Testament certainly matches to Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) rather than Jesus(pbuh)


a) God Almighty speaks to Moses in Book of Deuteronomy chapter 18 verse 18:

"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."

b) Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is like Moses (pbuh):

i) Both had a father and a mother.

ii) Both were married and had children.

iii) Both were accepted as Prophets by their people in their lifetime.

iv) Both besides being Prophets were also kings i.e. they could inflict capital punishment.

v) Both brought new laws and new regulations for their people.

vi) Both died a natural death.


c) Muhammad (pbuh) is from among the brethren of Moses (pbuh). Arabs are brethren of Jews. Abraham (pbuh) had two sons: Ishmail and Isaac. The Arabs are the descendants of Ishmail (pbuh) and the Jews are the descendants of Isaac (pbuh).

d) Words in the mouth:

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was unlettered and whatever revelations he received from God Almighty he repeated it verbatim.

Deuteronomy (18:18):

"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."

2) Muhammad (pbuh) is prophesised in the book of Isaiah:

It is mentioned in the book of Isaiah chapter 29 verse 12:

"And the book is delivered to him that is not learned saying, ‘Read this, I pray thee’; and he saith, ‘I am not learned’.

"When Archangel Gabriel commanded Muhammad (pbuh) by saying ‘Iqra’, he replied "I am not learned".

3) Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is mentioned by name in the Song of Solomon chapter 5 verse 16:

"Hikko Mamittakim we kullo Muhammadim Zehdoodeh wa Zehrace Bayna Jerusalem."

"His mouth is most sweet: ye, he is altogether lovely. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughter of Jerusalem."

All the prophecies mentioned in the Old Testament regarding Muhammad (pbuh)

Ahh...Dr. Ahmad Deedat all over again.

And for people who kill the Innocent they certainly aren't Muslims

Says you. I'm sure they say the opposite about you moderates.

thats your assumption

Its not my assumption, brother. Just ask any Christian if he/she has got Jesus in his/her heart teaching him/her what to do, and they will say, "Yes". Ask them if they have to obey to the letter of the law, every word in the bible and they will say, "No".

Where is it written in Bible that to be Christian you have to do that stuff (sigh)---infact if you read Bible Jesus(pbuh) clearly said follow the Prophet to come

Gospel of John chapter 16 verse 12-14:

"I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth is
come, he will guide you unto all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me".

"Where is it written" this and "where is it written" that (x infinity). You are thinking so small, brother. Christians have the Holy Spirit in their hearts. Having tasted that, we are not shaken by clever lawyer tactics.

According to a FBI report, in the year 1990, every day on an average 17S6 cases of rape were committed in U.S.A alone. Later another report said that on an average everyday 1900 cases of rapes are committed in USA

Sorry mate, there is no such thing as a Christian country.

So clearly don't have the slightest clue about life of Prophet Muhammad(pbuh)

He was a bad apple.

why don't you read his biography then ask about something which actually occurred
His Biography

He was a killa, his buddies were killas, all the way from then till now. Unending rivers of blood.