Who Do You Believe that Jesus Is?

[Coder]

Hi,

I believe that Jesus is a man made god-man, the story of Jesus is based on all other god-men, the stories are plagiarized from other stories,

In religion, one can begin to see apparent patterns that seem to be the "currency" in religious credibility/thought. For example (bear with me), if there is an auto convention of classic cars and some are reputed to be the leading experts/dealers in classic cars etc. then people might want to know, well what classic cars does he/she own or has restored/sold etc.

In looking at the Jewish Scriptures, a pattern seems to emerge that a prophet can be recognized by miracles, prophecies, and being anointed (Spirit), among other things (Elijah, Elisha, Isaiah, David). The Christian Scriptures record Jesus as performing miracles and prophesying the Temple destruction. Jesus is also said to be anointed and conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit. So, such things could be the "currency" to lend credibility to Jesus as a Jewish prophet to Jewish people.

(By the way, one may wonder about the prophecy of the Temple destruction because the earliest known Gospel manuscript fragment post-dates the Temple destruction by about 75 years - i.e. is this known history recorded as a prophecy?)

Now, I propose that the Roman Empire also had its own "currency" for who is credible as a "god". Some Roman Emperors were also called divine and/or "son of god" (Divi Filius). Roman Emperors were also involved in the military e,g. "commander-in-chief". In Greco-Roman religion, some gods also impregnated human women and had "god-children". The main god in Rome was Jupiter (sky father). Jesus' title as "son of god", his parable about military battle, His praise of Roman soldier's faith, and His ascending into the sky (recall Jupiter, "sky father"), would certainly seem to fit the "currency" in the Roman Empire for who is a "god" (from their perspective). However, at the same time, it is clarified that Jesus is not just any "god" but "true God from true God" (Creed) perhaps as opposed to "pagan-god from pagan-god" (e.g. Hercules from Zeus). I also think that referring to the Holy Spirit (e.g. Trinity doctrine), further distinguishes Jesus from the Greco-Roman gods.

So the Christian Scriptures do appear to have much of these "currencies" recorded about Jesus that would give Jesus credibility both to Jews and Romans. As history shows, the Romans eventually accepted the new religion (in profession at least). However, many Jewish people at the time and most today including Jewish scholars do not see Jesus as God and many may also understand the aspects we are discussing here. I think the Catholic Church, in years past, referred to Jewish unacceptance of Christianity as "a problem" and I myself previously thought: "yes, can't Jewish people see the truth?" Now, I wonder if maybe some leaders in Christian religion, may have seen this as "a problem" because Jews have real authority/credibility when it comes to assessing who is a messiah or is "The" Messiah. The good thing is that today, all this is changing, and the Catholic Church seeks to work with Jewish leaders and at the same time Jewish and Christian scholars/philosophers are showing the validity to premises regarding the "man-made" aspects of Christianity.

...have told...that all other stories are false...

Its claim of exclusivity is indeed a main aspect of Christianity. One may wonder if (other than sincere faith) where this aspect may come from. The Romans were sometimes tolerant of other religions but also persecuted several religious bodies. It seems that after the Catholic Church became the state Church of the Empire, tolerance decreased rather then increased.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_church_of_the_Roman_Empire
I'd be interested if you have any further thoughts about this.

 

[psychoslice]

Hi,

In religion, one can begin to see apparent patterns that seem to be the "currency" in religious credibility/thought. For example (bear with me), if there is an auto convention of classic cars and some are reputed to be the leading experts/dealers in classic cars etc. then people might want to know, well what classic cars does he/she own or has restored/sold etc.

In looking at the Jewish Scriptures, a pattern seems to emerge that a prophet can be recognized by miracles, prophecies, and being anointed (Spirit), among other things (Elijah, Elisha, Isaiah, David). The Christian Scriptures record Jesus as performing miracles and prophesying the Temple destruction. Jesus is also said to be anointed and conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit. So, such things could be the "currency" to lend credibility to Jesus as a Jewish prophet to Jewish people.

(By the way, one may wonder about the prophecy of the Temple destruction because the earliest known Gospel manuscript fragment post-dates the Temple destruction by about 75 years - i.e. is this known history recorded as a prophecy?)

Now, I propose that the Roman Empire also had its own "currency" for who is credible as a "god". Some Roman Emperors were also called divine and/or "son of god" (Divi Filius). Roman Emperors were also involved in the military e,g. "commander-in-chief". In Greco-Roman religion, some gods also impregnated human women and had "god-children". The main god in Rome was Jupiter (sky father). Jesus' title as "son of god", his parable about military battle, His praise of Roman soldier's faith, and His ascending into the sky (recall Jupiter, "sky father"), would certainly seem to fit the "currency" in the Roman Empire for who is a "god" (from their perspective). However, at the same time, it is clarified that Jesus is not just any "god" but "true God from true God" (Creed) perhaps as opposed to "pagan-god from pagan-god" (e.g. Hercules from Zeus). I also think that referring to the Holy Spirit (e.g. Trinity doctrine), further distinguishes Jesus from the Greco-Roman gods.

So the Christian Scriptures do appear to have much of these "currencies" recorded about Jesus that would give Jesus credibility both to Jews and Romans. As history shows, the Romans eventually accepted the new religion (in profession at least). However, many Jewish people at the time and most today including Jewish scholars do not see Jesus as God and many may also understand the aspects we are discussing here. I think the Catholic Church, in years past, referred to Jewish unacceptance of Christianity as "a problem" and I myself previously thought: "yes, can't Jewish people see the truth?" Now, I wonder if maybe some leaders in Christian religion, may have seen this as "a problem" because Jews have real authority/credibility when it comes to assessing who is a messiah or is "The" Messiah. The good thing is that today, all this is changing, and the Catholic Church seeks to work with Jewish leaders and at the same time Jewish and Christian scholars/philosophers are showing the validity to premises regarding the "man-made" aspects of Christianity.

Its claim of exclusivity is indeed a main aspect of Christianity. One may wonder if (other than sincere faith) where this aspect may come from. The Romans were sometimes tolerant of other religions but also persecuted several religious bodies. It seems that after the Catholic Church became the state Church of the Empire, tolerance decreased rather then increased.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_church_of_the_Roman_Empire
I'd be interested if you have any further thoughts about this.

That was all very interesting but i still see Jesus as a man made god-man, and there is nothing wrong in that, as long as the story brings you to your true Self, after that you can drop the stories, its like digging a thorn out of your foot with another thorn, when the thorn is out you then throw both away.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

 

[Coder]

That was all very interesting but i still see Jesus as a man made god-man,

What I wrote doesn't contradict what you are saying (true, I don't draw explicit conclusions) - I closed with: "Jewish and Christian scholars/philosophers are showing the validity to premises regarding the "man-made" aspects of Christianity." (perhaps my post put you to sleep by that point )


As mentioned, I was also interested if you had thoughts on any human motives for the exclusivity aspect of Christianity.

 

[psychoslice]

What I wrote doesn't contradict what you are saying (true, I don't draw explicit conclusions) - I closed with: "Jewish and Christian scholars/philosophers are showing the validity to premises regarding the "man-made" aspects of Christianity." (perhaps my post put you to sleep by that point )


As mentioned, I was also interested if you had thoughts on any human motives for the exclusivity aspect of Christianity.

Well like the question, who do you believe that Jesus is, I have answered it, for me there was never a man called Jesus, that is the man Jesus portrayed in the scriptures.

 

[Coder]

...I have answered it...

Yes, what motives do you think were involved in "making up" what you believe is a story (and I tend to agree to some extent, by the way).

 

[psychoslice]

Yes, what motives do you think were involved in "making up" what you believe is a story (and I tend to agree to some extent, by the way).

Well humans as they grew more intelligent started to think of the world around them, the stars, the planets, they were so overwhelmed. When we started to grow crops and sometimes the crops would be a good one and sometimes a bad one, because of this we started to think that something was causing the bad crops, that it maybe that the higher power of what they couldn't understand, was angry with them, and so they had to suffer in certain ways, such as not having a good crop or not crop at all.
Yes, so you can see where I am going with this theory, and so as we grew over many years we simply made our stories more complicated and personal, and so we have many belief systems throughout the world, Christianity and their man Jesus is just one of those,

 

[Coder]

maybe that the higher power of what they couldn't understand,

That is interesting. Do you think that religious myths are ever formulated/used for political/economic reasons?

 

[psychoslice]

That is interesting. Do you think that religious myths are ever formulated/used for political/economic reasons such as wealth, power, or control?

Yes of course, religion would probably be one of the best ways to pull the wool over eye's, people are so emotionally attached to religion, they put all their life into it. Religion also keeps the weak in check, for without the religion there's a possibility of many going wild and causing havoc. So yea, I am in many ways glad we have much of religion, for me personally there is nothing sacred or holy about the world, we are all one with the world or Cosmos, and that is all it is, the rest is all made up.

 

[Coder]

...we are all one with the world or Cosmos, and that is all it is,...

Interesting, I see existence somewhat similarly, except I believe in God as one who transcends all of what we are used to, such as the physical universe. This disassociation from dependence upon anything for existence or meaning is part of my concept (perhaps the general concept) of a spiritual being. I see God as the Spiritual Being who is the ultimate authority in all existence e.g. "I am" (Jewish Scripture).

Analogous to you, I see that the "physical" world is an "extension" of the "spiritual" i.e. all is in God's hands (some think of it as all existence is in God's "mind").

 

[Coder]

...people are so emotionally attached to religion, they put all their life into it.

Some Jewish people under Roman oppression may have been very interested in the arrival of the Messiah at the time of Christianity.

religion would probably be one of the best ways to pull the wool over eye's,

In the case of Christianity though, Jewish concepts of love of God Deuteronomy 6:5 and justice/fairness among humans do come through and are good universal concepts.

 

[Sententiae]

Hi,

The Christian Scriptures record Jesus as asking "Who do you say that I am?" and I am interested in answers to that question and the basis for the answer. The Christian Scriptures indicate that the answer is that faith in Him is a gift from God.

I respect and love much of the wisdom found in both the Hebrew and Christian Scriptures, however, I think that the Christian Scriptures may be pragmatic in many ways and contain external influences. Some go as far as to propose that Jesus is a fictional figure. Do some think that Christianity is possibly a fable by the Roman Empire to have one state religion? I don't go that far but I do see that Christianity seems to incorporate elements from so many religions/beliefs in the Roman Empire at that time. Here is a list of Christian replacements of or commonality with former religions:

Jewish sacrifices -- new Sacrifice
Passover meal -- Christian "breaking of the bread" (Communion)
patron gods in Roman religion -- saints in Roman Church
Jupiter (sky father) in Roman religion -- God the Father
God as Father in Judaism -- God the Father
Jupiter (sky father) -- Jesus ascended into the sky
father-son gods in Roman religion -- Father and Son
Holy Spirit in Judaism -- Unity of the Trinity (Father-Son)
gods who impregnated women in Greek/Roman/pagan religion -- virgin birth
The human soul in Greek philosophy -- The belief in the soul
God breathes life into man in Judaism (Holy Spirit) -- Jesus is man by the Holy Spirit

Also one may wonder if it is coincidental that the Jewish Temple was destroyed by the Romans and Jewish sacrifices ceased. Some of the miracles of Jesus have close parallels in the Hebrew Scriptures. It is interesting that some responded to Jesus that some say He is Elijah. Also, one may wonder if some of the portrayal of Jewish leaders in Christian Scriptures accepted by the Roman Church was not based on Roman opposition to Judaism. At the same time, other Scripture passages seem to appeal to other Jews to accept this new religion (e.g. to form unity in the Empire). If the Roman government had an interest in turning Jewish people against their own leaders and have them accept a new state religion, wouldn't that be a clever way to do it? This raises the question of whether the Romans modified and leveraged Christianity (including Scripture) for their own purposes.

Its possible he is the human male son of a being beyond human understanding who was born is some manner from a virgin girl who was married to someone else at a time when birth control... and this is just me thinking maybe... there were no condoms but Joseph being male probably wasn't really into it. Maybe.

In any event this great being figured out someway to make human girls bear his children without the normal processes of making kids.

Then the baby of this human girl and godly god was a male human named jesus but he had some of the powers left from his dad. Sometimes. He also died but came back to life but died again and just think he never had an instragram account, facebook or even a single tweet on twitter.

Amen.

 

[psychoslice]

Interesting, I see existence somewhat similarly, except I believe in God as one who transcends all of what we are used to, such as the physical universe. This disassociation from dependence upon anything for existence or meaning is part of my concept (perhaps the general concept) of a spiritual being. I see God as the Spiritual Being who is the ultimate authority in all existence e.g. "I am" (Jewish Scripture).

Analogous to you, I see that the "physical" world is an "extension" of the "spiritual" i.e. all is in God's hands (some think of it as all existence is in God's "mind").

Yes as a metaphor I can agree with you, but what you call God I call exsiteance, the Cosmos, the Source, and we and everythig else is one in that Source, for me there is no need to worship the Source for you would only be worshiping your self, which to me is ignorance of your Self.

 

[psychoslice]

Some Jewish people under Roman oppression may have been very interested in the arrival of the Messiah at the time of Christianity.

In the case of Christianity though, Jewish concepts of love of God Deuteronomy 6:5 and justice/fairness among humans do come through and are good universal concepts.

There is good and bad concepts in all belief systems, Hitler even had some good ideas.

 

[Sully]

I think the Sultan of Swing has it right one must go back to the scriptures...when you start out with the statement how I see Jesus...that is a problem. It is the prevalent form of ideology we see today "i"deology. We can't understand God's glory unless we look to the scriptures because that is where he has been revealed to us.

Jesus wasn't a good moral teacher...he was our Lord Savior. CS Lewis distilled it down to its basic choices Lord, Liar or Lunatic...Jesus could only be one.

 

[_nameX]

I think you've watched the movie, "Tron" too many times!

The Bible clearly speaks the Jews falsely worshipping the devil.

 

[Rival]

The Bible clearly speaks the Jews falsely worshipping the devil.

More anti-Semitic trash, proudly brought to you by the New Testament.

 

[_nameX]

More anti-Semitic trash, proudly brought to you by the New Testament.

Sorry but this is Old Testament

 

[Rival]

Sorry but this is Old Testament

And what exactly is your understanding of 'the devil'? Where in the Tanach do the Jews worship him?

 

[_nameX]

And what exactly is your understanding of 'the devil'? Where in the Tanach do the Jews worship him?

Throughout. Even Moses was tricked.
Remember Satan is the god of this world. His emmesarry is the devil(2 different but united in cause angels).