Who do YOU say Jesus is?

[Spartan]

He's not asking you for evidence. He's gone beyond that. He knows that you can offer no evidence. He's telling you that you've offered none to support your chosen belief over other competing ones that are also unevidenced, and asked you on what basis you made that choice. It looks like a guess.

It just looks like a guess to the spiritually challenged.

 

[tayla]

who people say Jesus is.

If Jesus existed at all (I suspect he didn't) he was probably a mere mortal man, an apocalyptic preacher who got crucified by the Romans and was left to decompose hanging on the cross.

Bart Erhman and Richard Carrier provide good info for these two views.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

It just looks like a guess to the spiritually challenged.

And by that, you mean "everybody that doesn't believe what I believe".

 

[Ancient Soul]

In the Bible Jesus is clearly identified as the divine, pre-incarnate God, along with the Father and the Holy Spirit (i.e. the Trinity). Two articles provide backup for this:

The Deity of Jesus Christ in Scripture
Jesus Must be Jehovah

The Bible also identifies Jesus as the Creator of all things: "For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him." - Colossians 1:16

The Bible also says that Jesus existed as God BEFORE his incarnation as a man (Philippians 2:5-7, etc.).

The primary purpose of this thread is designed to find out who people say Jesus is. Is he God incarnate? Is he the Creator God like the Bible says or is he a created being? WAS JESUS RESURRECTED from the dead as all four Gospels attest (i.e. is Jesus the resurrected Savior)?

So typical.

Always taking select verses OUT of context and falsely claiming they mean something other than what they really mean.

Now IN context, Colossians 1:16 means GOD THE FATHER:


Giving thanks unto the FATHER, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

For it pleased the FATHER that in him should all fulness dwell;

And as to your reference of:

Philippians 2:5-7


Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

******************
In no way supports your claim, only undermines it.

 

[Riders]

No he was not is not never will be God. He was a jewish member of the Messiah movement and rebel, and prophet.

 

[lukethethird]

Who do YOU say Jesus is?
Depends on how we interpret The Bible, and who is doing the interpreting at any given time.

 

[Spartan]

So typical.

Always taking select verses OUT of context and falsely claiming they mean something other than what they really mean.

There's nothing taken out of context. Jesus is divine. He is Lord of the Sabbath and the Alpha and Omega - THE ALMIGHTY in Revelation.

Now IN context, Colossians 1:16 means GOD THE FATHER:

No it doesn't.

Colossians 1:16 - "For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him."

Colossians 1:16 is talking about Jesus because it's a continuation of who the previous verse is talking about in 1:15:

Colossians 1:15 - "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation."

And before you think "firstborn" means first created, it refers to preeminence. The same term - firstborn - is used to describe King David, even though he was not the first born in his family.

 

[blü 2]

I think it was blu 2 who suggested that as God's perfect representative, Jesus represented God perfectly and thus much of what can be said of God can also be said of Jesus.

I don't think I said that, but it makes a good point, so I wouldn't have minded saying it.

1Cor 15:27-28,

27 For he (God) hath put all things under his (Jesus') feet. But when he saith, all things are put under [him (Jesus), it is] manifest that he (God) is excepted, which did put all things under him (Jesus).

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him (Jesus), then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him (God) that put all things under him (Jesus), that God may be all in all.​

Thanks for those verses. I've added them to my kit.

 

[Muffled]

I'm pretty sure you are a Christian and therefore have some regard for scriptural evidence. But, I don't know, there are a lot of different brands of Christians these days, so maybe there are some that don't believe the Bible. Anyway, I'm going to assume you do give them credence, so maybe you can tell me how Romans does not say exactly what I said, that Jesus got us out of the mess Adam got us into.

Rom 5:12-21,

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
​

Take care...

I believe Paul can be quite inspired but at other times he is just a theologian and this is one of those times. I believe Adam and Eve were not the first people on the earth and sin existed on the earth before they came into being. It could be that sin is simply a natural result of free thinking sort of like a baby putting everything into its mouth.

 

[Muffled]

It has gotten the attention of a few Scholars who are looking at it.
Primarily
Joseph Atwill.

The Flavian Signature provides an abridged version of the theory.

I believe even if Flavian wrote something, he is not inspired by God so I would not consider his word authoritative.

 

[Muffled]

Of course. The moment something comes along that can better answer the question, 'What's true in reality?' I'll be onto it in a flash!

I believe I am skeptical about that. I believe it is more likely that any valid argument will be viewed as flawed. The skeptic can't force himself to believe no matter how cogent the argument.

 

[rrobs]

I believe Paul can be quite inspired but at other times he is just a theologian and this is one of those times. I believe Adam and Eve were not the first people on the earth and sin existed on the earth before they came into being. It could be that sin is simply a natural result of free thinking sort of like a baby putting everything into its mouth.

Hello Muffled,

Interesting take on the scriptures.

What if I thought that John was just being a theologian when he said,

John 3:16,

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.​

Or maybe somebody else would think that Moses wasn't really inspired to write,

Gen 1:1,

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
​

What would we have left? People would have to make up their own God, which is pretty much what happens today anyway. When people make up their own God they are actually making themselves God. That's exactly what the devil promised Adam and Eve (at least if Genesis 3 isn't just another hair brained idea of Moses). There is much more respect for opinion and tradition than for the scriptures.

 

[rrobs]

Philippians 2:5-7
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

******************
In no way supports your claim, only undermines it.

Trinitarians must totally ignore verse 5. Clearly we are supposed to have the same mind Jesus had. Well, if Jesus thought he was God, then trinitarians are exhorted to think they are God also.

 

[Riders]

I believe even if Flavian wrote something, he is not inspired by God so I would not consider his word authoritative.

Yes I think thats the video I put up it says the Flavians wrote the bible is that right? Yes

 

[Ancient Soul]

There's nothing taken out of context. Jesus is divine. He is Lord of the Sabbath and the Alpha and Omega - THE ALMIGHTY in Revelation.



No it doesn't.

Colossians 1:16 - "For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him."

Colossians 1:16 is talking about Jesus because it's a continuation of who the previous verse is talking about in 1:15:

Colossians 1:15 - "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation."

And before you think "firstborn" means first created, it refers to preeminence. The same term - firstborn - is used to describe King David, even though he was not the first born in his family.

Thanks for proving my point that you take verses completely OUT of context and then twist it's meaning to make it say whatever you want it to say. Just like ALL self proclaimed Christians do. I already supplied the complete context of that verse and how it clearly referred to "god" the FATHER, yet you still cling to the lie you've been fed.

All you are doing is making up false claims, false meanings, out of thin air, then demanding that everyone blindly believe them no matter how UNsupported they are. "Firstborn" means "firstborn" and implies nothing else. My older sister was the "firstborn" in my family, so what?

And how come almost ALL Christians are likewise brainwashed that they TOTALLY IGNORE all the verses that CLEARLY defines the Christian "god" as "god" the FATHER, and Jesus as the SON of this "god" the FATHER, and that "god" the FATHER is GREATER than Jesus the SON?

 

[Ancient Soul]

Trinitarians must totally ignore verse 5. Clearly we are supposed to have the same mind Jesus had. Well, if Jesus thought he was God, then trinitarians are exhorted to think they are God also.

YES, exactly!

That's what I've been forced to come to believe as ALL play that game, taking only the verse or verses out of context that they were brainwashed to blindly believe means something other than what it really means, and totally ignore the complete context of that verse or verses or any other verses that exposes the lie they've been brainwashed with. I find it fascinating how easily some minds can be so completely hijacked that they can no longer process real facts.

 

[rrobs]

YES, exactly!

That's what I've been forced to come to believe as ALL play that game, taking only the verse or verses out of context that they were brainwashed to blindly believe means something other than what it really means, and totally ignore the complete context of that verse or verses or any other verses that exposes the lie they've been brainwashed with. I find it fascinating how easily some minds can be so completely hijacked that they can no longer process real facts.

Kind of like Adam and Eve. It didn't take to many brains to understand what God said would happen if they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. God was pretty clear in what He said. But it took one conversation with the adversary to convince them God didn't know what He was talking about. Same thing today. God clearly calls Jesus His son. Jesus was called the son of God some 50 times and yet most Christians insist and saying God didn't know how to use simple words to form a sentence. Nope, to them, Jesus was God the Son and God's opinion means nothing.

There is simply no respect for God's word in most Orthodox churches today. I suppose there never really has been since everybody turned against Paul before the poor guy even died. Remember, he said people were preaching a false Jesus. I often ask when the churches got back to the right one. Gee, was it when the Pagan, self proclaimed god, Roman Emperor, Constantine convened the Nicaean Council? Apparently that's what many sincere Christians believe. What mess!

 

[Spartan]

Thanks for proving my point that you take verses completely OUT of context and then twist it's meaning to make it say whatever you want it to say.

That's absolute nonsense.

"Firstborn" means "firstborn" and implies nothing else.

God refers to David as his "firstborn" in Psalm 89:27, "the highest of the kings of the earth", and David had seven brothers born before him. So do your homework.

FInally, here's additional information that militates against your sophomoric premise of the "firstborn": What does it mean that Jesus is the 'first-born' over Creation?

 

[Ancient Soul]

Kind of like Adam and Eve. It didn't take to many brains to understand what God said would happen if they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. God was pretty clear in what He said. But it took one conversation with the adversary to convince them God didn't know what He was talking about. Same thing today. God clearly calls Jesus His son. Jesus was called the son of God some 50 times and yet most Christians insist and saying God didn't know how to use simple words to form a sentence. Nope, to them, Jesus was God the Son and God's opinion means nothing.

There is simply no respect for God's word in most Orthodox churches today. I suppose there never really has been since everybody turned against Paul before the poor guy even died. Remember, he said people were preaching a false Jesus. I often ask when the churches got back to the right one. Gee, was it when the Pagan, self proclaimed god, Roman Emperor, Constantine convened the Nicaean Council? Apparently that's what many sincere Christians believe. What mess!

Yes, the Christian beliefs have been turned into a complete mess. There is now not even a bit of sense in any of it.

And since you brought up the Adam and Eve thing, yes, their God was wrong/lied about them both dying on that very day, as Adam lived several HUNDRED years after eating from the tree.

 

[Ancient Soul]

That's absolute nonsense.



God refers to David as his "firstborn" in Psalm 89:27, "the highest of the kings of the earth", and David had seven brothers born before him. So do your homework.

FInally, here's additional information that militates against your sophomoric premise of the "firstborn": What does it mean that Jesus is the 'first-born' over Creation?

Besides making baseless condemnations, you have failed to offer any proof to back up your wild claims.

And WHY are you ignoring the facts I presented? I find it funny how you are so afraid to face them that you even edited them out from your reply.