Who do YOU say Jesus is?

[Spartan]

Are you saying that he had no "divinity" whatsoever whilst on Earth? I'm sorta confused.

Hope you had a great weekend, btw.

I'm not sure as to the extent he 'emptied' himself of his deity (Philippians 2) while on earth. But he's back to being God again in heaven.

Cheers!

 

[Spartan]

You also ignored the matter of the discrepancy between the genealogies of Jesus.

What is your purpose here? If it's to promote the divinity of Jesus to educated unbelievers, at a minimum, you'll need to know and respect their rules of discourse. @blü 2 cited seven New Testament scriptures from the Gospel of John attributed to Jesus saying that he was not God, nor the equal of the Father. And how did you answer him? You ignored his evidence and cited contradictory scripture. How do you think that you did there?

Listen, I don't have all day to answer your myriad of claims. I had 23 people to answer today, but I'll address a couple of your claims.

The genealogies of Jesus have been discussed in-depth in a dozen or more debate sites I've visited. They can consume WEEKS or MONTHS to really get into. It can go on and on and on. Now there are numerous Christian web sites that do into depth to answer the challenges of skeptics on this issue. I recommend you go visit those.

You wrote: @blü 2 cited seven New Testament scriptures from the Gospel of John attributed to Jesus saying that he was not God, nor the equal of the Father. And how did you answer him? You ignored his evidence and cited contradictory scripture. How do you think that you did there?

The OP itself refutes him. I've provided other examples.

All his examples are no doubt by Jesus IN HIS HUMANITY. There's also tons of web sites that address these Jehovah's Witness types of arguments. Here's one: Responses to Jehovah's Witnesses (page 1) . Knock yourself out.

 

[rrobs]

Do you believe Jesus was any good?​

I only ask because @blü 2 has quoted this verse to assure us he was not:

As Jesus started on His way, a man ran up and knelt before Him. "Good Teacher" he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" “Why do you call Me good?” Jesus replied. “No one is good except God alone.…"​

I'm at a loss as to how Jesus would be any good at the 12 or more things you've just enumerated especially since you and Blü have assured us Jesus is not God. Surely if Jesus is no good at these things, then it's his fault, not our own, which may explain why there are so many skeptics on this board.

But we don't want to get ahead of ourselves, so let's start with the first two items you posted.

As the only begotten Son of God, who was born without inherent sin, was Jesus good at being the Son of God, pretty good at it, or not so good at all? In other words, "WHY do you call" (name, suggest, infer) "Me" (Jesus) "good" at any of the things you've just enumerated (Teacher. Son of God, Lord, Mediator, etc.) when "No one is good but God alone"?

Besides God being good, so is your question. First of all, I don't understand all scripture and that verse is one I'm not 100% on. Having said that, I'll give you my first thoughts on it.

Jesus always gave his Father credit for everything. He said he could do nothing on his own, the the things he taught were not his own, but his Father's. It was like Joseph giving God he credit for interpreting Pharaoh's dream. It is like I am no good in myself and yet with Christ in me I am as righteous as God. You too.

Rom 3:22: "Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:"

Isn't that wonderful! Of course it is not by our own works that we have the righteousness of God. It is by the selfless life of our savoir, the second Adam, Jesus Christ. Adam wasn't God, so as the second Adam, neither was Jesus.

They were the only two men who started life sinless. They both had free will. Adam chose to try and become a god (Gen 3:5). The devil made pretty much the same offer to Jesus (Matt 4:8-9). Jesus could have said yes. He was not a robot. He had free will which didn't always line up with God's will. In the Garden of Gethsemane, Jesus was perfectly clear that he did not want to face the cross. He asked God twice if there was some other way. Of course, he knew in his heart that he was the promised seed of Gen 3:15, that he was the lamb without blemish, that he was the purpose of the ages. That is why, by his own free will, he said, "Not my will, but Thine be done." He did it for one reason and one reason only; he loved God enough to sacrifice himself so that God could have more children than the number of stars! That would include you an me.

Even though Jesus , like Adam, started out perfect (Jesus because God created seed in Mary's womb, the point of the virgin birth), Jesus maintained his perfection throughout his entire life by never once deviating from his Father's will regardless of what he himself may have wanted. Can't you see how fantastic it is that a man loved you so much that he would do that for you? How big of a deal would it have been for God to obey Himself, to believe He would raise Himself from the dead? What would go through your mind if God asked you to die the horrible death Jesus died, but not to worry,He would raise you from the dead after three days? Jesus was tempted in all points, just like every other man. How could that possible be true if he knew he was God. Do you have a sense of being God when you are tempted? Well, then neither did Jesus, because he was tempted just like you! The garden prayer showed that the devil was telling him that God might not really raise him from the dead. Isn't that what would go through your mind? The devil told Eve that they wouldn't really die if the ate from the tree. Adam and Eve followed their own thoughts where Jesus disregarded his own thoughts and believed God instead. Fantastic!

I don't know how to convey to you the greatness of what the man Jesus Christ accomplished. If he were God it would be the most ho-hum story ever. But being a man, the Bible becomes the most fantastic story ever imagined. The love Jesus had is the same love God wants us to have for each other.

There is absolutely no reason Jesus had to be God. Indeed, as Romans declares, since sin and death came by man, so would righteousness and life. I understand that there are some verses that can be made to say Jesus was God, but the overall evidence is that he was a man, albeit, the only begotten son of God. There is not a single verse usually used by trinitarians that can not easily be understood in a non-trinitarian way. One way fits with the many clear verses that show unequivocally that Jesus was not God the Son, but the son of God. The other way creates a multitude of contradictions.

The biggest trick of the adversary is to hide the true nature and character of the redeemer. Without a proper understanding of who Jesus is, the true greatness of God's plan to redeem man can never be know the way God meant for it to be known. Making Jesus God destroys God's plan and cheapens the true accomplishment of Jesus in carrying out that plan by his own free will, despite grave personal costs. I can't begin to tell you how bad I feel that the vast majority of Christians are in the dark because they don't understand the true greatness of God's plan for our redemption and of Jesus' life in making that plan a reality in this world. It breaks my heart to see the adversary so blind my brothers and sisters. Oh well, at least as children of God, I know that one day, when he returns, they will know even as they are known (1 Cor 13:2). Something to look forward to indeed!

Take care...

 

[rrobs]

I'm not sure as to the extent he 'emptied' himself of his deity (Philippians 2) while on earth. But he's back to being God again in heaven.

Philippians 2 doesn't say he emptied himself of his deity. That would be impossible.

Go back to Genesis 1 where God created all plants and animals, "after it's own kind," "whose seed is in itself." That is a fancy way of saying an apple tree seed makes another apple tree, a cow makes another cow, a cat makes another cat, a dog makes another dog, etc. It's nothing but basic biology. As a side note, there is nothing in Genesis that precludes "evolution" within a species. Birds can evolve but they will never become anything other than a bird. Likewise for every other animal. The word "kind" in "after his kind" in the Septuagint translation of Genesis is the word "genos" from which we get our word "genus." So a species may change over time but it will always stay within it's own kind or genus. That of course precludes man coming from a fish, or whatever. But I digress.

Getting back to Jesus' divine nature. Was he not God's son? God miraculously implanted His seed (sperm) in Mary's womb. So what nature would Jesus have had? The same as his Dad's nature. i.e. divine. Can a cow become a non-cow, or a dog a non-dog? Of course not. Like they say, "a leopard can't change his spots." Well, Jesus could no more shed his divine nature than the leopard. What Philippians is really saying is that despite Jesus knowing he had a divine nature, he would never have thought himself to have been God. That is exactly the opposite of what the first Adam did. When presented with the possibility of becoming God (Gen 3:5), he jumped at the chance. We know where that led.

Jesus was fully aware that he was God's only begotten son and thus had a divine nature. He just didn't think that actually made him his own Daddy. Real simple.

By the way, as children of God we also have a divine nature,

2Pet 1:4,

Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.​

Can we shed our divinity? Nope! No more than a cow or Jesus. Seed produces offspring of it's own kind. You can't ever become not your earthly father's son. Again, pure biology, which God instituted in the beginning. But our divine nature is way better than the nature we got from our earthly father.

1Pet 1:23,

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
​

The seed we get from our earthly parent is corruptible. For that we can thank Adam. Once he blew it God said he'd die, and die he did. Unfortunately, we all share from that same corrupted seed Adam passed down. That's why Romans says by one man's disobedience came death and sin. But Romans also says that as by one man we got sin and death, it is by one man that we get justification form sin and eternal life (Rom 5:12-19, 1 Cor 15:21). Because of Jesus' perfect obedience to God, we can now be born again of incorruptible seed, which means we have eternal life.

It's amazing that any Christian would have the audacity to think they could make that incorruptible seed corruptible, that they can somehow undo God's work.

Eph 2:10,

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
​

Hello! Jesus is a complete savior. He finished the job (John 19:30). God never expected us to finish our own salvation. In that regard, he had something to say to the Galatians,

Gal 3:1-3,

1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
​

I always ask any Christian who thinks they can loose there salvation by sinning exactly how many sins it takes to do that. So far, nobody's come up with an answer. While we do have a divine nature, we also have our same old dead flesh nature. God's workmanship had nothing to do with our flesh. He didn't make it one wit better. It was dead before we got born again and it'll be dead until it's really dead, i.e. 6 feet under the ground. We become more Christlike by looking to him, not looking to our own flesh. God tells us over and over to put on the "new" man. That is the new creation God put withing every born again believer. That is where our righteousness is to be found. Forget the flesh! Set your thoughts on things above, not on things (e.g. your flesh) of the earth.

But if looking to Christ is the key, how far do you think you can get if you don't understand the most basic aspects of his character? I can't emphasize enough that by making him God you will miss the bus altogether. At least in this life. Since you've confessed him as Lord and believe God raised him from the dead (Rom 10:9-10), you got born again by incorruptible seed. That is your reserved seat in the new earth regardless of what you believe about Jesus' nature. Let's face it, anyone can do Romans 10:9-10, whether or not they subsequently think Jesus is God or not. I'm often told I'm going to hell because I don't believer Jesus is God (I'm not saying you said that), but I can't think of a more unloving thing to say to a brother or sister in Christ. I just chalk it up to an ignorance of God's plan for redemption. It's just what they've been taught. But I'd never think that about a trinitarian. I love the many trinitarian brothers and sisters as I do the few non-trinitarians. Pretty sure that's what Jesus told us to do somewhere in 1 John.

Take care.

 

[rrobs]

As stated previously Jesus emptied himself of his Divine Nature:

“…but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, andC)" style="box-sizing: border-box;"> being made in the likeness of men.” Philippians 2:7​

Philippians does not say Jesus emptied himself "of his divine nature." You are injecting an extraneous idea that simply isn't there. It says he, "emptied himself," period. You are adding the words, "of his divine nature" because of your predisposition to the trinity, which I understand is just what you've been taught. Here's a better way:

As God's son He had the same nature as his Dad's, just like every plant and animal God created. It's impossible for any plant or animal to shed it's own nature. Can a dog become a non-dog, a cat a non-cat, or a human become a non-human? Of course not! Everything has the nature of it's parent and there is no way it can be somehow shed. Read my post #124 to Spartan in this thread for more detail and the relevant scriptures.

God bless...

 

[Spartan]

Philippians 2 doesn't say he emptied himself of his deity. That would be impossible.

"...have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness." So, he was equal with God - having deity - and then he incarnated as a servant, who doesn't have divinity. Seems real clear to me.

Getting back to Jesus' divine nature. Was he not God's son? God miraculously implanted His seed (sperm) in Mary's womb. So what nature would Jesus have had? The same as his Dad's nature. i.e. divine. Can a cow become a non-cow, or a dog a non-dog? Of course not. Like they say, "a leopard can't change his spots." Well, Jesus could no more shed his divine nature than the leopard. What Philippians is really saying is that despite Jesus knowing he had a divine nature, he would never have thought himself to have been God. That is exactly the opposite of what the first Adam did. When presented with the possibility of becoming God (Gen 3:5), he jumped at the chance. We know where that led.

.

That's fine. But what then does Philippians 2 mean when it says, "Rather, he made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant"? What is the nature of a servant on earth - is that servant divine? Also, when you see Jesus doing miracles, etc., it is reportedly by the power of the Holy Spirit. Scriptures that support this include:


1. Jesus was born of the Spirit (Luke 1:35; Matthew 1:18-20)

2. He was filled with the Spirit (John 3:34)

3. He was led by the Spirit (Matthew and Luke 4:1)

4. He was empowered by the Spirit (Luke 4:14)

5. He was anointed by the Spirit (Luke 4:18)

6. He spoke and taught by the Spirit (Luke 4:18)

7. He healed the sick by the Spirit (Luke 4:18)

8. He cast out devils by the power of the Holy Spirit (Matthew 12:28)

9. He was justified (vindicated by the Spirit (1 Timothy 3:16)

10. He was offered up by the Spirit at Calvary (Hebrews 9:14)

11. He was resurrected by the Spirit (Romans 8:11; 1 Peter 3:18)

Source: The Foundations of Christian Doctrine, pg. 78

So, this begs the question: Since your argument is that Jesus was fully divine and with full power as a servant, why did he need help from the Holy Spirit?

BTW, I do believe in the divine Jesus Christ.

 

[rrobs]

"...have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness." So, he was equal with God - having deity - and then he incarnated as a servant, who doesn't have divinity. Seems real clear to me.

.

That's fine. But what then does Philippians 2 mean when it says, "Rather, he made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant"? What is the nature of a servant on earth - is that servant divine? Also, when you see Jesus doing miracles, etc., it is reportedly by the power of the Holy Spirit. Scriptures that support this include:


1. Jesus was born of the Spirit (Luke 1:35; Matthew 1:18-20)

2. He was filled with the Spirit (John 3:34)

3. He was led by the Spirit (Matthew and Luke 4:1)

4. He was empowered by the Spirit (Luke 4:14)

5. He was anointed by the Spirit (Luke 4:18)

6. He spoke and taught by the Spirit (Luke 4:18)

7. He healed the sick by the Spirit (Luke 4:18)

8. He cast out devils by the power of the Holy Spirit (Matthew 12:28)

9. He was justified (vindicated by the Spirit (1 Timothy 3:16)

10. He was offered up by the Spirit at Calvary (Hebrews 9:14)

11. He was resurrected by the Spirit (Romans 8:11; 1 Peter 3:18)

Source: The Foundations of Christian Doctrine, pg. 78

So, this begs the question: Since your argument is that Jesus was fully divine and with full power as a servant, why did he need help from the Holy Spirit?

BTW, I do believe in the divine Jesus Christ.

Having a divine nature in no way precludes one from making the decision to become a servant to their fellow man. In fact, although we also have a divine nature (2 Pet 1:4), God asks us to become servants, just like Jesus (too many verses to even quote on that one).

Yes, everything Jesus did, the miracles, the healing, the casting out of demons, and the rest absolutely depended on holy spirit. The scriptures declare that God was in Christ (2 Cor 5:19). God, who is holy and spirit, was the source of Jesus' power. That shouldn't be very surprising. It's exactly the same way with us. Jesus said we'd do everything he did.

I would never think that anything I do that is what Christ did was done by my own power. I can do all the things Jesus did, not through my putrid flesh, but because Jesus dwells within me (Col 1:27). Same with you and every other Christian. We all step out in faith to do the impossible because we are servants. You really have to forget yourself and rely on Jesus. Let's face it, it's not impossible to make oneself look incredibly foolish as they learn to do those works. I know a brother in Christ who, shortly after his new birth, walked up to the casket in a funeral home in front of a rather large crowd and, in a loud voice, ordered the deceased to rise in the name of Christ. Well, for various reasons (basically a lack of true belief on his part and those present) it didn't work but the people were appalled at his audacity. To man, he looked like a fool, but I'm sure God thought otherwise. I don't know if he's ever raised the dead, but I do know he has led many people to freedom from disease, injury, and broken hearts. It's a learning process, but ya gotta start somewhere!

 

[blü 2]

Do you believe Jesus was any good?

I only ask because blü 2 has quoted this verse to assure us he was not:

As Jesus started on His way, a man ran up and knelt before Him. "Good Teacher" he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" “Why do you call Me good?” Jesus replied. “No one is good except God alone.…"​

Not quite. I included it as one of seventeen or more statements attributed to Jesus in first person speech that he's not God. There was no discussion at the time about what 'good' means here.

I'm at a loss as to how Jesus would be any good at the 12 or more things you've just enumerated especially since you and Blü have assured us Jesus is not God.

Jesus could be good at those things because he's using God's goodness rather than his own, no? That would be consistent with his saying such things as ─

John 5:19 “the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing”

John 5:30 “I can do nothing on my own authority; as I hear, I judge; and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.”

John 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me​

Surely if Jesus is no good at these things, then it's his fault, not our own, which may explain why there are so many skeptics on this board.

Surely if none of us is good at being good then since God is almighty and all-knowing and benevolent, the buck stops with God, no? How can it possibly stop anywhere else?

I try as best I can, not always succeeding, to act with decency and in good conscience towards others in this world, and I suspect this is what everyone, believer or not, ends up doing. The sources of this morality are our evolved instincts as gregarious primates for the main part, and upbringing, culture, education and experience for the rest.

As the only begotten Son of God, who was born without inherent sin

Once again I query this Christian notion of original sin. It's found nowhere in the Garden story, which doesn't mention sin, original sin, the fall of man, death entering the world, &c, and it is baldly contradicted by Ezekiel 18, a substantial discussion which includes ─

20 The soul that sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
​

Of course each is free to believe as each pleases, but why wish oneself innately vile? We didn't raise our kids with such degrading notions, and they turned out fine. Why would Christians?

 

[JJ50]

Having a divine nature in no way precludes one from making the decision to become a servant to their fellow man. In fact, although we also have a divine nature (2 Pet 1:4), God asks us to become servants, just like Jesus (too many verses to even quote on that one).

Yes, everything Jesus did, the miracles, the healing, the casting out of demons, and the rest absolutely depended on holy spirit. The scriptures declare that God was in Christ (2 Cor 5:19). God, who is holy and spirit, was the source of Jesus' power. That shouldn't be very surprising. It's exactly the same way with us. Jesus said we'd do everything he did.

I would never think that anything I do that is what Christ did was done by my own power. I can do all the things Jesus did, not through my putrid flesh, but because Jesus dwells within me (Col 1:27). Same with you and every other Christian. We all step out in faith to do the impossible because we are servants. You really have to forget yourself and rely on Jesus. Let's face it, it's not impossible to make oneself look incredibly foolish as they learn to do those works. I know a brother in Christ who, shortly after his new birth, walked up to the casket in a funeral home in front of a rather large crowd and, in a loud voice, ordered the deceased to rise in the name of Christ. Well, for various reasons (basically a lack of true belief on his part and those present) it didn't work but the people were appalled at his audacity. To man, he looked like a fool, but I'm sure God thought otherwise. I don't know if he's ever raised the dead, but I do know he has led many people to freedom from disease, injury, and broken hearts. It's a learning process, but ya gotta start somewhere!

There is not the slightest shred of evidence that Jesus was any sort of god, or did the crazy things the gospels suggest he did which just aren't credible.

 

[rrobs]

There is not the slightest shred of evidence that Jesus was any sort of god, or did the crazy things the gospels suggest he did which just aren't credible.

If you've followed this thread, you already know that I agree with you 100% regarding Jesus not being a god. As far as whether or not Jesus did the things recorded in the gospels all I can say is that one believes whatever they choose to believe. Do you think I am lying about the supernatural deliverance of the many so called incurable diseases I myself have witnessed? I'm really not.

One thing the scriptures say is that we get whatever we believe, that we are the way we are because of what we believe. In that, many scientific disciplines agree. Furthermore we believe what we have been taught. You don't believe George Washington lived because you came programmed from the factory knowing all about him. No, you believe GW lived because someone outside of yourself told you so. But not only didn't you know about GW the day you made your grand appearance in this world, you didn't know anything about anything, nada, zippo. Everything you know is because of someone or something outside of yourself giving you input via one or more of your five senses, i.e. seeing, hearing, feeling, tasting, or touching. Based upon that input, you have formulated your belief system. The first time you "felt" the heat of fire, you came to believe that fire is hot. It's like that for everything, including the scriptures.

The scriptures say that belief in God comes by hearing the scriptures. As one studies them, one begins to see the logic and comes to believe them. But here is the problem; The typical erroneous teaching that Jesus is God pretty much ruins the scriptural message right out of the gate. Jesus is the main character of the scriptures from beginning to end. Making him God is a gross misrepresentation of his character which renders the rest of the story pretty much unintelligible. So what you think you may know about the scriptures may not be at all accurate. Actually, I think it safe to say that is almost certainly the case, given the error usually promulgated about the main character, Jesus. You've simply not been exposed to the truth and, as a logical individual, you have chosen to reject that which you've heard. I get it.

I believe that if the preachers would learn the true nature of Jesus and begin teaching the scriptures from a non-trinitarian perspective, many more people would be open to the message. I'm not saying you would, but I really believe it would make way more sense to the discriminating person who is turned off at the thought of a mythical god-man creature. Anyway, that's my take on the whole matter.

Take care...

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I'm not sure as to the extent he 'emptied' himself of his deity (Philippians 2) while on earth. But he's back to being God again in heaven.
Cheers!

I find at Revelation 3:12 Jesus is 'Not back to being God.....' rather just as on Earth, the heavenly resurrected Jesus still thinks he has a God over him.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

3. He was led by the Spirit (Matthew and Luke 4:1)
4. He was empowered by the Spirit (Luke 4:14)
5. He was anointed by the Spirit (Luke 4:18)
6. He spoke and taught by the Spirit (Luke 4:18)
7. He healed the sick by the Spirit (Luke 4:18)
BTW, I do believe in the divine Jesus Christ.

I would like to address the ^ above ^ points as found in Luke.
Continuing to Luke chapter 11, I find at Luke 11:13 Jesus says to ask his Father for holy spirit.
Then, at Luke 11:20 Luke equates 'God's spirit' as with the ' finger of God ' ( a finger Not being a person ).
Notice what word is used at Exodus 31:18, and about the use of God's finger.
Matthew 12:28 thus uses the term ' spirit of God ' the same as used as the ' finger of God ' at Luke 11:20.
So, finger and spirit thus being one and the same thing.- Psalms 104:30
Plus, at Numbers 11:17, 25 we find God's spirit is a neuter "it".
God's Son Jesus is divine in the sense that his God sent the pre-human Jesus to Earth for us.

 

[rrobs]

Not quite. I included it as one of seventeen or more statements attributed to Jesus in first person speech that he's not God. There was no discussion at the time about what 'good' means here.

Jesus always claimed to be God's son. I don't know exactly how many times he did that, but I suspect more than 17. I do know that he was called the son of God 49 times altogether. Clearly a son can't be his own father, so Jesus was, by any sense of logic and sane thinking, someone other than God.

I try as best I can, not always succeeding, to act with decency and in good conscience towards others in this world, and I suspect this is what everyone, believer or not, ends up doing. The sources of this morality are our evolved instincts as gregarious primates for the main part, and upbringing, culture, education and experience for the rest.

Well said, my friend.

Rom 2:14-16,

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
​

People pretty much know right out of the gate that it's not nice to kill other people. Regarding verse 16, God will judge us by what's in our hearts. Man judges by external appearances and they tend to project that onto God, but the scriptures declare over and over that God will look at what's inside, not necessarily the outward acts. If He did go by externals, we'd all be in trouble, because we all do something that is far from loving. That brings me to your next point.

Once again I query this Christian notion of original sin. It's found nowhere in the Garden story, which doesn't mention sin, original sin, the fall of man, death entering the world.

Well, God did tell Eve she would die if she disobeyed. I suppose, as you say, it didn't specifically speak of "original sin." However the book of Romans is quite specific on the matter.

Rom 5:12,

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
​

Instead of the term "original sin" I prefer to think of it as a "sin nature." We are born to sin, so to speak. We don't have that nature because we sin, but we sin because it's our nature. Dogs bark, cats meow, cows moo, and people sin.

If you read the first the chapters of Genesis very carefully you may notice the following:

Everything in the original creation, including man was "good." Now the concept of "good" to the ancient Hebrew mind was not at all like we think of "good." We tend to go to a moral quality, but the Hebrews didn't think like that. It is the Hebrew word "tov" and is better thought of as "functional." Quite simply, when God created the universe everything worked to ensure a life of, more or less, ease for humankind. All their need were provided for by that creation. Adam and Eve had no consciousness of things not working out for their benefit. Everything was functional.

However, when they disobeyed God, it says their eyes were opened and they now became aware of evil. Again, the Hebrews didn't think of that word in a moral sense, but in the opposite sense of tov, i.e. it meant dysfunctional. Well now, some things went right for mankind, but other things didn't function they way God intended. Whereas before, they were guaranteed a ready supply of food with very little effort, they now had to work like dogs to make anything grow. But to make matters worse, they may go through the work and end up with a failed crop. Clearly not everything was functional any more. There was a lot of dysfunction, the main one being man no longer knew for sure what God wanted for them and thus they began to act contrary to what was functional, i.e. they sinned. The word "sin" in Greek is "amartia" and it means "missing the mark." People often miss the bullseye when shooting their arrows.

and it is baldly contradicted by Ezekiel 18, a substantial discussion which includes

20 The soul that sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.​

I'm not sure why this contradicts the truth that people have a sin nature, they don't always act in their own best interest or that of others. All it says is that I'm not to blame for the mistakes my father made. It certainly doesn't suggest I haven't made my own stupid mistakes. Both my father and I have a sin nature, so we both sin, and so we will both die.

Of course each is free to believe as each pleases, but why wish oneself innately vile? We didn't raise our kids with such degrading notions, and they turned out fine. Why would Christians?

Well said. As I mentioned God gave us free will and so we absolutely do believer whatever we choose. As far as wishing oneself vileness, I'd only say I never wished myself death, which I consider highly vile. It wasn't my idea. It was thrust upon me the day I was born. I had not choice in the matter. Jesus has paved the way for anybody who thinks like me to avoid death. He promises an eternal life of ease, free from sickness, sadness, worry, fear, and all the other dysfunctional things things we face in this life. I'm willing to follow a guy like that! When one confesses Jesus as Lord and believes God raised him from the dead (Rom 10:9-10), they are saved and guaranteed a seat in paradise. It's not a matter of being a "good" person. It doesn't depend on what I've done, but on what he did. He conquered death and undid what Adam and Eve caused.

By the way, while getting saved does guarantee the believer a seat in paradise ahead of time, it in no way means that everyone who chose not to confess Jesus will burn in hell. Heck, as is so often mentioned, there have been plenty of people who lived who never heard of Jesus. God is not going to throw them into hell because of that. At the end, God will raise everybody from the dead. He will then judge them. But He won't judge like man judges, by outward appearances. He will judge them by what's in their hearts. I suspect most people are decent folks, including those who have not confessed Jesus as Lord. You sound like one of them. In any case, those folks will be in the same new earth as those who did confess Jesus as Lord. The others will be cast into a lake of fire where they will promptly die what is called the second death and, like their first death, they will have no consciousness of anything whatsoever. They will not suffer the agony of an eternity of burning in fire. It'll be as though they never existed.

Take care...

 

[rrobs]

I find at Revelation 3:12 Jesus is 'Not back to being God.....' rather just as on Earth, the heavenly resurrected Jesus still thinks he has a God over him.

Are you suggesting that Jesus saying the words "my God" means Jesus had a God, and was therefore not God Himself?

Gee, I guess that's what the word "my" means. What do ya know!

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Are you suggesting that Jesus saying the words "my God" means Jesus had a God, and was therefore not God Himself?
Gee, I guess that's what the word "my" means. What do ya know!

I'll also throw in the word "me" as found at Revelation 3:21 besides the word "my" at Revelation 3:12.

 

[rrobs]

I'll also throw in the word "me" as found at Revelation 3:21 besides the word "my" at Revelation 3:12.

You're right, two thrones.

But what about the poor Holy Spirt's throne. Doesn't the other parts of God care about about that part? What? Does that even make any sense? Why, no it doesn't!

Sure looks like Jesus isn't the one God spoken of in 1 Cor 8:6. Could it be that he is the son of God?

Take care...

 

[Kenny]

Well, since Gentiles were never under the Law to begin with, ...

I've thought about that before. It is true that we weren't under the Jewish law, but as I thought about it, every person has a law which we brake anyways. So I figured, either way, I still needed Jesus.

 

[Oeste]

Where then did God come from?

God is eternal. He always has been, always is, and always will be.

Nah, Changing, adding, and/or omitting words are what’s required to promote a distortion of the Trinity.

As you know, Jesus said on no fewer than seventeen occasions that he was not God, god was someone else;

These verses have been addressed and none of them stated what you claimed. Then we posted what…a hundred and fifty more verses showing Jesus is God?

Look at the link @Spartan gave you.

never once said that he was God;

If only you were there to explain that to the Jews!

No doubt the rocks they picked up to stone Jesus for blasphemy would have been dropped immediately.

like the authors of the NT, had never heard of the Trinity doctrine, which church politics brought into existence towards the end of the 4th century CE;

The Arians brought forth heresy and the church brought forth sound doctrine, that’s all.

Look, some guy, somewhere at some time gets a strange idea about Christ. He talks to others about the idea and soon it's spread like a contagion through a congregation. The church gets wind of it, examines the doctrine in light of scripture, and pronounces it a heresy. They also produce a work, like "Against the Heresies" which explains exactly why the church did not adopt the aberrant teaching.

50 years later some new guy comes along and dreams up a different take on the issue, and a 100 years later some other guy comes up with a brand new heresy that's even more bizarre than the last two combined.

It's not the church's fault that it didn't get around to addressing a heresy earlier because it’s not the church that dreams up these heresies to begin with.

and if in some anachronistic fashion he'd ever got to hear of it, he'd have agreed with the churches (and me) that it's incoherent, a nonsense.

Too funny blu! It's you who believes the doctrine nonsense, not the traditional church. I'm sure we would have gotten the memo had the church agreed with you.

What test will tell us whether something is "above reason" or not? I mean, without such a test, there'd be no way of knowing whether the Trinity doctrine actually has that status, or whether the phrase is an empty excuse to cover a hole ─ one that the churches admit ─ in the doctrine itself, no?

You are correct...the answer is "No".

The test of the Trinity doctrine is in scripture…simple exegesis and hermeneutics. As for God, Christians are not encouraged to put Him to the test.

It's church doctrine that the Trinity is "a mystery in the strict sense".

Yes. A mystery in this context is simply a “revealed truth”.

And as you'll recall, this means it "can neither be known by unaided reason apart from revelation,

Correct! We needed God to reveal who He was. He's not someone you normally stumble upon.

nor cogently demonstrated by reason one it has been revealed."

Correct again! This is why we can’t develop and/or test for God in a laboratory.

So the Trinity doctrine is admitted by the churches to be a nonsense,

Incorrect (and you were doing so well!)

"Nonsense" is a statement you've made about the Trinity, not the church. You appear to be conflating your personal opinions with that of the historic church.

even if they don't actually like that term.

The term doesn’t apply. The idea there is nothing beyond the comprehension of the human mind is simply a vanity. In other words, it’s nonsense.

We are a tiny speck on one of many planets which itself is a speck revolving around a relatively small sun which composes a solar system which is one of innumerable solar systems located in an insignificant section of the Milky Way which is only one of anywhere from 200 billion to 200 trillion galaxies in our observable universe…in other words, there are more galaxies than grains of sand on earth!

Yet skeptic scoff at the idea there might be things beyond man’s ability to reason. IMO,that requires unimaginable hubris. As a practical matter its simply an indulgence into nonsense.

But, heavens forbid, I don’t want you to think me close minded about this. Since my assertions are based on scripture and faith while you prefer those based on reproducible, objective evidence, kindly post your Theory of Everything. Explain how you tested the results, which objects, both visible and non-visible were tested, which objects in our universe were excluded, how you reasonably arrived that there were no objects, material or non-material beyond the scope of your test, how you arrived at your conclusions, and describe the equipment we’ll need to duplicate your experiment to verify the results ourselves.

We can then test whether there is, in fact, anything beyond the comprehension of human reason. Surely we'll find there is no such thing, and we can all scoff along with the skeptics at the suggestion there is or ever was.

 

[Spartan]

I find at Revelation 3:12 Jesus is 'Not back to being God.....' rather just as on Earth, the heavenly resurrected Jesus still thinks he has a God over him.

Towards the end of Revelation, Jesus said he's the Alpha and Omega. That's God.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I've thought about that before. It is true that we weren't under the Jewish law

Unless of course you were, or are, a Jew.