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Who does God want the Antichrist to be?

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Baha'u'llah freed slaves and in His Most Holy Book [he] forbid slavery
And that's where we must be very adamant that these religious texts are so very often not intended to be changed. The authors believe, so we are told, these are the absolute truths from god, and deviate is to bring upon wrath, misery, destruction, and death. If god says "these are the laws you live by today," is it not human arrogance to assume god changed his mind as we've progressed? Are they too afraid to admit that we have progressed to a point of being more merciful, tolerant, and forgiving than their "merciful, loving, and forgiving" god? How is it Jesus can say "I have not come to do away with the law" ever be possibly be interpreted as "I have come to do away with the law." They point out how he averted the stoning of the woman, and he was clearly against people judging others. It seems more likely, to me, he was very clear, very very clear, to not change the law or lessen it, and while you're at it, don't be snitching and talking about things you don't know. Mind your own damn business!
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I think that being a slave and keeping slaves are conscience matters.
I do not believe that slavery was ever the Creator's intention.

I don't know if many people realize that to be a slave is some people's personal choice.
There had to be laws about the slave/master relationship because it is what people do.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
I think that being a slave and keeping slaves are conscience matters.
I do not believe that slavery was ever the Creator's intention.

I don't know if many people realize that to be a slave is some people's personal choice.
There had to be laws about the slave/master relationship because it is what people do.
With the Bible, even sex slavery is commanded and considered booty and plunder of war, and you can beat your slaves as severely as you want so long as you don't kill them and they recover in a few days because the slave is your property. Maybe not a "Creator's" intention, but very much an intention of Abraham's god.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
With the Bible, even sex slavery is commanded and considered booty and plunder of war, and you can beat your slaves as severely as you want so long as you don't kill them and they recover in a few days because the slave is your property. Maybe not a "Creator's" intention, but very much an intention of Abraham's god.
Maybe I do not know what "intention" means.

The law about taking captives would rightly cause the saving of lives.
The law about beating slaves would also cause the saving of a life.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
The law about taking captives would rightly cause the saving of lives.
The law about beating slaves would also cause the saving of a life.
Why such a scorched earth policy to begin with? Why such degradation to begin with? Those things were the common practices of those times, which to me makes it painfully obvious those aren't the words of a god but the words of men who ruled with s fist of dangerous radiation and threats of damnation for failure to obey. Why else would the "word of god" be going along with the flow of the standards and norms for the time?
 
How? By killing your rebellious teenage child instead of learning how to cope with it and help them adjust?

A theocracy is rule by god/religion. There is no secular law in the Torah as it is the law given to Moses by god.

Clearly they should neglect and ignore many of those laws. How is it even inconceivable for a all-knowing god to not tell his prophets that "oh, by the way, women don't always bleed when they're virgins, so that 'proof before the elders' nonsense has got to go."

It was god's law. God ordered it. God commanded it. God promised reward for those who followed and punishment for those who didn't.

Depending on the timeframe that we are talking about----there was Moses' day (where he was both the Law Giver and the Prophet) while wondering in the wilderness before they got to the Promised Land. After which time period, the civil and religious duties were divided between two parties---the King (civil law) and the prophet (religious leader). Still other time periods were ruled by a body of Judges and Chief Judges (civil law) and the prophet with priests and high priests (religious).

When Ancient Isreal decided that they wanted a King to rule over them (desiring to be like cultures surrounding them) rather than being led by God as their King (under the direction of the prophet) their laws were changed according to those holding that power. While some Kings were righteous and approved of God----there were just as many Kings who were wicked and opposed God's directives and God's representative prophet. Israel was overly tempted to follow after the pagan cultures that surrounded them (as well as the current King who wanted to follow after those cultures too) and it absolutely affected Israel's belief systems. They failed to live in the world, and yet NOT be of the world.

How much of these laws were directed from God.....it is not totally known....since there were priests, high-priests, (and maybe even prophets) who were appointed by the King instead of anointed by God (as His mouthpiece). And the Scribes (religious scholars/historians) may have even altered the record to support their chosen narrative.....like was a common practice in other cultures.

The Herodian Dynasty which lasted about four generations during Christ's day---was ruled by King Herod the Great (appointed by Ceaser) and the Jewish Ruling Class which consisted of the Sanhedrin (who focused on politics/the majority of seats appointed by the Sadducees/aristocrats), the Scribes (religious scholars) and the Pharisees (focused on religious law/middle-class businessmen). Yes there were priests and high priests among them, however they were being appointed by the Ruling Political Class under the reign of Ceaser/Herod (and they were not being ordained by prophets).

So Israel's mode of government matters in what specific timeframe that we are talking about. Especially when the governing powers were split between different factions---they ended up being a melting pot of the particular beliefs of those appointed that come to the forefront (rather than the explicit directives from God through his mouthpiece--the prophet).

It is clear, that both in Old Testament and New Testament Times---that prophets and apostles denounced the directives of the appointed Ruling Class. There are too many verses to list of the Apostles doing this, however, in the prophet Isaiah's day he said,

  • Isaiah 24:5
    5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
 
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loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
That is true. But we don't see books being attached to ages, we see them being attached to cultures (if they had any books, that is). The ones you mentioned all came from fairly close geographic location, and with some of them, such as Krishna and Buddha, or Christ and Muhammad, we see some similarities because they are from specific regions such as India. Should we really be surprised that the Abrahamic god is so often associated with the desert, or that the Nile had even religious significance to the Egyptians?

Most of such people are not "updating," but establishing new laws and new beliefs for their people. Some have "updated" or "added to," and of course many split and branch off, but that most cultures have established their own religious views is nothing remarkable. We even see it happening today with more mainstream scientists expressing belief-in and having experiences a spiritual experience. But their morality is not coming from a god, but rather from ideas that in some way or another could be described as the principle of lesser harm. Of course we can see a "no harm" being practiced by the most devoted of Jains, but in this developing approach to spirituality it is consideration, thought, and conscience that guide moral decisions rather than a fear of offending god.
But, even that is following this pattern of "new and relevant." For the most part, the only thing it has to do with "the old" is pointing out how abhorrent so many parts are, how inaccurate it is overall, and how far along we've come since then. And that itself often only really comes out when having to defend against absurd claims such as how "atheists can't be moral."

Of course atheists can be very moral. They are just as human as anyone else and should be treated equally.

I wonder just how far we've really come in reality when I look at atrocities of the modern era, committed by modern man such as the holocaust, Hiroshima and Nagasaki, WW1 & WW2, North Korea, Vietnam, the civil wars of Lebanon and Syria and gassing of the Kurds.

When are we going to stop wasting $trillions on war and invest the monies in people's lives?

We need a change in direction towards tolerance, unity in diversity and peace. That is why we Baha'is believe God sent Baha'u'llah hopefully to instil some humanity back into us.

Otherwise we are heading for another contest for world ownership. What a waste of lives and money these wars are. Just think of how the $trillions could be spent on free education, scholarships, full employment, Medicare, to help the poor etc.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
I had to read that sentence three times over.

Baha'u'llah freed slaves and in His Most Holy Book forbid it [the freeing of slaves].

LOL

What you meant to say:

Baha'u'llah freed slaves and in His Most Holy Book [he] forbid slavery

LOL. Yes. Sorry about that.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
God is patient toward you, not wishing any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
2 Pet 3:9
That doesn't answer my question. God could have ended sin after it happened, but he didn't. Why? It hardly seems fair to not even give a child a chance to learn from the mistakes of their parents.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
I wonder just how far we've really come in reality when I look at atrocities of the modern era, committed by modern man such as the holocaust, Hiroshima and Nagasaki, WW1 & WW2, North Korea, Vietnam, the civil wars of Lebanon and Syria and gassing of the Kurds.
For a good chunk of the world, the chances of dying from violence, or even being attacked, has historically never been lower. We're beginning to see people as people, rather than races, or tribes, or religions, and working towards that can only bring about more peace, far more than clinging onto books that so rigidly define "us and them," and are notorious for demanding the deaths of "them."
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
So Israel's mode of government matters in what specific timeframe that we are talking about.
We are talking about the laws that god gave to Moses. Those that say "thou shalt not" and "it is an abomination before the lord." Anywhere it says "your lord has commanded."
 
Janet Waters said:
God's character is unchanging.....he will always be all-knowing and all-good.

On the other hand---
Man's character is always changing.....and we need constant direction based upon our current situation.

That doesn't make any sense. Why do we not change our ways to suit god? Why is it that god changes his laws to suit our ways?

We SHOULD change our ways....to suit God......especially when the spirit is willing, however the problem lies with the fact that the flesh is weak (we are rebellious and stubborn by nature).

  • Matthew 26:41
    41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
Since we as mortals are dualistic in nature---having both a spirit and physical body (of flesh)---the great task at hand is to OVERCOME the flesh (or our "natural man" tendencies).

It is not a matter of God changing His Laws to suit OUR WAYS.....but to help us OVERCOME those particular ways (rebelliousness and stubbornness that leads to wickedness). The Commandments are a list of directives of what should be avoided and what should be encouraged......which specifics will help us to be successful at overcoming the particular weaknesses of the flesh that we have (and help us instead to become what God would have us to BE).

Each generation, each nation, and time period----have different struggles and vices and those specific things need to be addressed to get us on the right path. This is what ONGOING REVELATION is all about.....tutoring a specific group, during a certain time period, so that each group can be on the same right path (the strait and narrow path) that leads to Eternal Life.

The Old Testament was a record of God's Covenant to Ancient Israel.....it met those people where THEY WERE SPIRITUALLY (to help them overcome the flesh) and led them by the hand (through Laws, performances, and ordinances that they had the ability to live on their spiritual level) to get them collectively to a better and higher place.

The New Testament was a record of God's Covenant to Israel (and the adopted Gentiles) it met them where THEY WERE SPIRITUALLY (to help them overcome the flesh) and led them by the hand (through Laws, performances, and ordinances that they had the ability to live on their spiritual level) to get them collectively to a better and higher place.

Both Covenants were specific to the struggles of the people who it preached to....to meet them where THEY were to get them collectively to BE at a better place. THIS IS CURRENT REVELATION....built upon the foundation of prophets and Apostles who God ordained and sent specifically to them.

God meeting us where we are SPIRITUALLY----reveals that He is not just a Authoritarian figure (expecting something we can't attain).....but instead he is a merciful and loving Father who knows where we are and will meet us there. And like the Good Shepherd (Jesus Christ) He is willing to leave the 99 (safe and secure in the fold) to go out and find that one black sheep (or the prodical) who has wandered away from the narrow path of safety. This is the God that I know.
 
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Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
We SHOULD change our ways....to suit God......
But hardly anyone would actually want that, let alone the legalities of such a thing. God gave his laws. We don't follow them anymore for a reason. We allow for religious freedom. Jehovah does not. We allow for freedom of association. Jehovah does not. We have freedom of speech of speech. Jehovah does not. We do not criminalize sex outside of marriage, nor do we tell people what they can and cannot eat. We don't tell them they can't work a certain time frame under penalty of death. The Bible says to take slaves, we say slavery is a crime. If a parent killed their child in the West for following a god other than Jehovah, there would be no shields of religious tolerance to avert justice.
The New Testament was a record of God's Covenant to Israel (and the adopted Gentiles) it met them where THEY WERE SPIRITUALLY (to help them overcome the flesh) and led them by the hand (through Laws, performances, and ordinances that they had the ability to live on their spiritual level) to get them collectively to a better and higher place.
There is no bettering society if slavery exists. There is no better society if women are held beneath men. There is no better society if people are killed for practicing basic human rights.
 
But hardly anyone would actually want that, let alone the legalities of such a thing. God gave his laws. We don't follow them anymore for a reason. We allow for religious freedom. Jehovah does not. We allow for freedom of association. Jehovah does not. We have freedom of speech of speech. Jehovah does not. We do not criminalize sex outside of marriage, nor do we tell people what they can and cannot eat. We don't tell them they can't work a certain time frame under penalty of death. The Bible says to take slaves, we say slavery is a crime. If a parent killed their child in the West for following a god other than Jehovah, there would be no shields of religious tolerance to avert justice.

The Old Covenant is for Ancient Israel.
The New Covenant is for Jews and Gentiles.

The New and Everlasting Covenant is for our time period.

Some still choose to live by the Old Covenant (without the direction of prophets)
Some still choose to live by the remains of the New Covenant (without the direction of apostles).


The New and Everlasting Covenant was prophesied to be restored to be under the direction of Prophets and Apostles.

There is no bettering society if slavery exists. There is no better society if women are held beneath men. There is no better society if people are killed for practicing basic human rights.

Each time period has different standards and beliefs. Every society is different. Each culture is different. What is culturally acceptable in one society is not acceptable in another. We are a product of the society, culture, standards, and beliefs that we have in our particular time period. It is not FAIR to judge and condemn the people of another culture of a different place and in a different time----using the current standards and beliefs of our time.

Call those beliefs ignorant or wrong....ok. But don't demonize people for being the product of their environment. We are also....a product of our environment....and "where much is given much is required" of us. We have been greater light to see some things----that others have not been as blessed. They also may see some things---that we don't. Don't demonize another people because they had different information, that is not currently the accepted norm, and therefore didn't have the light to know the cultural error of their ways.
 
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Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
The Old Covenant is for Ancient Israel.
The New Covenant is for Jews and Gentiles.
Jesus was clear that he did not come to do away with or end the law.
Each time period has different standards and beliefs. Every society is different. Each culture is different. What is culturally acceptable in one society is not acceptable in another.
That's true. But that doesn't mean I can't say they did things that are wrong. It also weakens the argument that the Bible is "God's word" if if they laws we find are really just a reflection of the culture it came from. The Babylonians calculated pi to be 3. Though we know that is wrong, it is also what the Bible puts pi at. That's not god, that's man.
Call those beliefs ignorant or wrong....ok. But don't demonize people for being the product of their environment. We are also....a product of our environment....and "where much is given much is required" of us. We have been greater light to see things, others have not been so blessed. Don't demonize a people because they were given less and therefore didn't have the light to know the error of their ways.
I'm not demonizing people. I'm demonizing "religious books" that contain the "words and laws of god" that contain instructions such as "kill those who don't want me to reign over them."
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
For a good chunk of the world, the chances of dying from violence, or even being attacked, has historically never been lower. We're beginning to see people as people, rather than races, or tribes, or religions, and working towards that can only bring about more peace, far more than clinging onto books that so rigidly define "us and them," and are notorious for demanding the deaths of "them."

Yes there definitely is a new spirit and I am much encouraged by your comments expressing abhorrence of this 'us and them' attitude hopefully to be replaced forever with just 'us or we'.

But just noble sentiments of peace are not enough. We need a new system. We are not out of the woods yet while so many countries have nukes. Do you really think they will never be used?

Baha'u'llah's laws include world disarmament.and the establishment of a world system based on the oneness and equality of all people.

The current system in the world is unjust and corrupt. We need a just system to replace it..
 
Jesus was clear that he did not come to do away with or end the law.

HE DIDN'T. Let me explain.....

When God's Covenant with mankind is broken and the ordinances associated with it are changed by man.....that generation of people are cast-out (or scattered) from the Promised Land, until there is a new generation of people (who qualifies themselves) to return to the Promised Land and BE the Covenant People.

When the next generation is ready---God then reintroduces the same Covenant with them (restoring it to it's pure state before it was altered by men). A Covenant is a sacred contract--that essentially states, that if you choose me to be your God, then you, will be my covenant people.

There were Covenants issued by God to Adam and his descendants (before the flood) and those who were righteous where translated to heaven, leaving behind the wicked who died in the flood (because they broke the covenant). Methuselah (who was righteous) but he was allowed to tarry, so that Noah could be born and then we start all over again with a New Covenant between God and Noah and his descendency. Whose descendents also broke the covenant when they built the Tower of Babel and they were confounded and then scattered.

Then we have another generation starting out with Abraham, and restored through Isaac, Jacob, and Judah & Joseph. Then we have the breaking of that covenant and Israel was taken into bondage by Egypt (for 400 years).

Next generation......is with Moses and the OLD COVENANT, but Israel whose generation was never allowed to enter into the Promised Land (wondering in the wilderness for 40 years and that generation died) because they could never live the covenant (which was the same covenant from previous generations). Since Israel had been slaves in Egypt they had become like rebellious teenagers and they were less mature and civilized than previous generations. For this reason, God amended that Covenant, making the Mosaic Law which was a PREPETORY COVENANT---designed for an unschooled people to prepare them to recieve the WHOLE COVENANT (as was known before) that Jesus Christ would bring at a later date...when they were ready to receive the complete Law.

Meanwhile, the slaves coming from Egypt died in the wilderness, Moses was taken up, and Joshua led the children born in the wilderness into the Promised Land----and they continued to live the prepetory covenant (Mosaic Law/OLD COVENANT) until Jesus Christ would come to fulfill the purpose of the Mosaic Law with the full Covenant (known anciently) and it would became known as the NEW COVENANT when the time was right.

Then we have Israel being led by Kings and then divided into the Northern (Israel: Joseph and 10 tribes) and Southern (Judah: Jews/Benjamin) Kingdoms. Then the Northern Kingdom (Israel 700 BC) broke the Covenant and was taken into bondage by the Assyrians and then scattered into the Northern countries and intermarried with gentiles. Then the Southern Kingdom (Judah 600 BC) broke the Covenant and was taken into bondage by the Babylonians who then was taken over by the Medes/Persians and were returned back to Jerusalem (the Promised Land). But the Greeks and the Romans ruled over Jerusalem and the Jews. At this point, they also changed the ordinances and broke the Mosaic Law.


The Coming of the MESSIAH [Jesus Christ] was the FULFILLMENT of the Old Mosaic Covenant. The purpose of the Old Covenant was to lead ISREAL to Christ. The prophesy of the Messiah coming to SAVE ISREAL had been completed/fulfilled.

Jesus Christ came to fulfill and restore, by instituting the New Covenant (which was built upon the previous foundations). Why did this need to happen? Because over history......the ordinances had been changed and the everlasting covenant had been broken (by every previous generation) including after the current one.


That's true. But that doesn't mean I can't say they did things that are wrong. It also weakens the argument that the Bible is "God's word" if if they laws we find are really just a reflection of the culture it came from. The Babylonians calculated pi to be 3. Though we know that is wrong, it is also what the Bible puts pi at. That's not god, that's man.

Over time......those Laws.....are changed by men.....both unintentionally and intentionally.

I'm not demonizing people. I'm demonizing "religious books" that contain the "words and laws of god" that contain instructions such as "kill those who don't want me to reign over them."

The instructions given were acceptable for the time and place that these people lived. But many of their Laws which is credited to God.....was actually the work of men---and changed by men to reflect the cultures in which they lived (whether it was inspired by Egyptian, Babylonian, Persian, Greek, or Roman etc.).

As a Country....we also have had additional laws added to our Constitution and Bill of Rights (ect). The Judges and Lawyers end up "reinterpreting the Law" to deal with and answer our current state of affairs and legal situations, This is why it is necessary to have a RESTORATION of the FOUNDATIONAL PRINCIPLES which were laid forth from the beginning. We as a Nation have made it 1776-2017 and a lot has been added to our Laws---much of which our Founding Fathers would not agree with. No Nation and no religious institution will be able to make it past 300 years without the need for those Laws being RESTORED back to their sound foundational principles.

God knows this........this is why HE HAS RESTORED THE COVENANT OVER AND OVER THROUGH OUT TIME!!
 
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Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Over time......those Laws.....are changed by men.....both unintentionally and intentionally.
Yes. Changed by us. Not god. We deviated from what god said. We are better off for having done so.
The instructions given were acceptable for the time and place that these people lived.
Such instructions are never acceptable. Slavery is never acceptable. Genocide is never acceptable. It is never acceptable to kill over many of the things the Bible mandates death for.
As a Country....we also have had additional laws added to our Constitution and Bill of Rights (ect). The Judges and Lawyers end up "reinterpreting the Law" to deal with and answer our current state of affairs and legal situations, This is why it is necessary to have a RESTORATION of the FOUNDATIONAL PRINCIPLES which were laid forth from the beginning. We as a Nation have made it 1776-2017 and a lot has been added to our Laws---much of which our Founding Fathers would not agree with. No Nation and no religious institution will be able to make it past 300 years without the need for those Laws being RESTORED back to their sound foundational principles.
Yes. Thomas Jefferson even thought each generation should update the Constitution to address their own needs and so we aren't governed by the dead. However, the Bible makes it clear god does not change, his laws do not change, and there will be consequences for those who relax the law, change it, or omit things from it.
 
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