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Who has a neutral stance in this vaccine

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
Who has a neutral stance in this vaccine argument?

Meaning you're not for or against it, but just choose what's best for you and others with no overarching opinion either way?

I don't feel anti/pro are needed. Maybe just those who take it and those who don't.

Does one need a side to make a decision and how is that justification true?

When science runs experiments, a control is used to create a standard, by which to compare the results. If everyone got the vaccine, we would not have any control to compare. This could lead to improper conclusions, such as nobody on earth could naturally withstand the virus without the vaccines. Without controls, politicians and businesses can over estimate the vaccine and appear correct to the layman. If we have control subjects, who do not get the vaccine, we can better quantify the effectiveness of the vaccine. The controls will also tell something about the selective targets of the virus. My position is be a control, for the sake of valid science conclusions.

During the beginning of the pandemic, most jobs and activities stopped or had to change venue; work from home. I worked a job that was considered part of essential services. I was never unemployed, rerouted, or isolated from people, during the entire span of the virus. Everyone who got to stay home and control their environments were like the controls in this experiment. These two extremes for potential daily exposure gave us an opportunity to compare home isolated controls, with the daily socially interactive, in essential services.

The data showed that people who had to interact daily, via being part of essential services, did not drop like flies, even with their higher daily average risks of exposure. The common wisdom and hype did not hold true. The essential services personnel were the Guinea Pigs in this exposure experiment, and the results did not meet the hype. The super markets did not all close down, even with all the stock boys and cashiers being potentially exposed by every customer for over a year straight. This tells me that the virus does not target everyone. It appears that the "title" of essential service caused the virus to avoid you, since the extra exposure did not lead to 2-10 times higher attrition anticipated by the hype.

In the USA, there was another control experiment that happened by chance. The Democrat Party run states had forced lock downs and had forced mask wearing. The Republican run states stayed more open and did not force mask wearing to the same degree. Based on the same common wisdom of hype, the open states should have dropped like flies, but there were very little difference in attrition. Politicians are not scientists but are good at emotional manipulation, with Democrats more willing to be manipulated.

One might conclude from that experiment, that if the common wisdom was true, being a Republican, like being in essential services, gave you an immunity boost, since you got similar results with less precautions. It also showed that masks were not as effective against the virus, as the hype. This was expected, since even N95 and KN95 masks, which were the gold standard, were only 95% effective, while most of the masks available and re-used were 30-60% effective. Virus can get through. As an essential worker I had access to KN95 and N95, masks but I opted for the lighter 50% efficient masks, since it was easier to breath. Fear can create stress and stress can lower your immunity. If you lack fear, your immune system can work better.

Very early, it was discovered the virus had specific targets, connected to the elderly, people with respiratory and circulatory issues, as well as obesity. I do not have any of these issues, other than being late middle aged. I am not too worried about being a control for science integrity. I have already been part of one experiment and those results suggest that I am naturally immune. The data suggests that over 90% of the population is immune, but very few believe it, due to the hype and fear.

The question I have is since people can spread virus through fluid exchange, can immune people spread their immunity, through the same type of fluid exchange? In other words, if I got the virus and my body ground it down, my body fluids will contain specific immune factors and viral fragments, instead of increasing concentrations of active virus. If I sneeze or cough, do I spread a type of natural vaccine?

Masks can slow the entry of the virus into my system in proportional to mask efficiency. However, a mask would also reduce the amount of natural vaccine output from immune people by the same amount. This could explain the similarity in Democrats and Republican states, in spite of different approaches. Democrats absorbed less virus through shutting down and strict mask regulation, but they decreased the spread of natural immunity factors among each other. The opposite happened in Republican states; more natural immunity could be spread but with a higher viral exposure. The result appears to have been a wash with similar final results.

Essential services attrition was similar to the controls at home. This could have been due to the extra precautions, all day long, required for customers and visitors. However, there were also less precautions, among your own team, so natural immunity factors could still be obtained from each other, beyond your immediate families. Controls help science learn about the global affect of the virus and natural immunity.
 
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Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Lucky i am not American and bound by the idiotic FDA approval scheme. I know of Americans suffering because the FDA wont approve long approved and completely effacious European medicines, at least two on this forum.

Yeah. Each country is different.
Rates of death are different.
Level of risk are different
Risk factors (age, location, etc) differ
Many people in America are concerned about FDA regulations that aren't rushed cause of an emergency. However, because the nature of the pandemic, there are only a minority who would not go with the majority unless they assess the facts for themselves.

Without taking these things into consideration, anybody can carry any virus and potentially affect a person.

Talking of ill health, in the last 3 years i have almost died 4 times, once under a surgeons knife and 3 times as a result, having a 2nd, 4 hour op to put right the problem. I was advised by my doctor to have the vaccine because i would have less chance of dying if i caught covid.

He's a doctor... why would I expect you wouldn't?

I've had brain surgery and would like my doctor to protect himself as well. I never said people shouldn't take the vaccine. People take it for many reasons. I'm just not a "just in case" person, that's all I'm saying.

No, ill health is not an excuse to avoid vaccine. In fact the vaccine is beneficial (if you call less chance of dying beneficial). This disease targets weak points, hence the initial claims of covid doesn't kill you but contributing factors do.

True.

The vaccines are not particularly experimental, they are older vaccines tweeked for covid, hence the reason they were approved (notice that) for use as fast as they were.

Experimental meaning they are still learning about it and testing it. Right now, they are experimenting or testing it on children. They still learning about side affects and things of that nature.

What's wrong with it being experimental? (I'm speaking from US perspective)
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
CDC: Key Points (emphasis added - JS)
  • All COVID-19 vaccines currently authorized in the United States are effective against COVID-19, including serious outcomes like severe disease, hospitalization, and death.
  • Available evidence suggests the currently authorized mRNA COVID-19 vaccines (Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna) provide protection against a variety of strains, including B.1.1.7 (originally identified in the United Kingdom) and B.1.351 (originally identified in South Africa). Other vaccines show reduced efficacy against B.1.351 but may still protect against severe disease. Continued monitoring of vaccine effectiveness against variants is needed.
  • A growing body of evidence indicates that people fully vaccinated with an mRNA vaccine (Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna) are less likely to have asymptomatic infection or to transmit SARS-CoV-2 to others. Studies are underway to learn more about the benefits of Johnson & Johnson/Janssen vaccine. However, the risk for SARS-CoV-2 infection in fully vaccinated people cannot be completely eliminated as long as there is continued community transmission of the virus.
  • At this time, there are limited data on vaccine effectiveness in people who are immunocompromised. People with immunocompromising conditions, including those taking immunosuppressive medications, should discuss the need for personal protective measures after vaccination with their healthcare provider.
  • This updated science brief synthesizes the scientific evidence supporting CDC’s guidance for fully vaccinated people and will continue to be updated as more information becomes available.
===========

Conversely, the unvaccinated are more likely to have asymptomatic infection and serve as disease vectors. Some people (e.g., currently children under 12) fall into this category for understandable reasons. Others are simply irresponsible and demonstrate the manifold danger of ignorance.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Yeah. Each country is different.
Rates of death are different.
Level of risk are different
Risk factors (age, location, etc) differ
Many people in America are concerned about FDA regulations that aren't rushed cause of an emergency. However, because the nature of the pandemic, there are only a minority who would not go with the majority unless they assess the facts for themselves.

Without taking these things into consideration, anybody can carry any virus and potentially affect a person.



He's a doctor... why would I expect you wouldn't?

I've had brain surgery and would like my doctor to protect himself as well. I never said people shouldn't take the vaccine. People take it for many reasons. I'm just not a "just in case" person, that's all I'm saying.



True.



Experimental meaning they are still learning about it and testing it. Right now, they are experimenting or testing it on children. They still learning about side affects and things of that nature.

What's wrong with it being experimental? (I'm speaking from US perspective)


I see so taking medical advice from doctors of medicine is no, no i your book?

See post #146 by @Jayhawker Soule
 
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TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
The way the argument is set it assumes privaxxers put the rare risk aside. So, if they do catch it, I wonder why the same view isn't seen in unvacinated. We didn't raise our risk catching it so if we do, we would do the same.

Unless provaxxers are taking for granted they are at risk too?

Sorry, I don't understand your question....
Or you are not understanding the end-goal of vaccination.

The end-goal is to attain group immunity. That marks the time for measures etc to be set aside and a return to "normal life".

There are 2 ways to go about it to reach group immunity:
1. massive vaccination (with group immunity after the mass vaccination is completed)
2. let covid run free

Option 2 comes with massive death and a complete collapse of health care. I should also note that the "massive death" also does not restrict itself to covid victims. Due to a total collapse of health care, other treatments suffer as well. Already, there is a rise in covid-unrelated deaths as a result of medical issues due to people being postponing treatment for whatever (by choice, or by necessity because the hospitals are full).


In summary, if only 20% gets vaccinated, that won't help. That would be the equivalent of 20% having had covid and healed from it.

Someone who had covid and gets healed, also is still expected to follow the measures concerning social distancing etc.

It is no different. And someone who had covid in the past, can catch it again also. Likely, their immune system will act more quickly.

In the end, a vaccine is about "simulating" you having been infected.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Only on RF when debates pop up.

Morally, I don't have emotional attachment either way. Rejection, things like that has emotional attachment.

Think of it like this. I'm an atheist and not angry at God to be one. I do find it weird one would be angry at God to be an atheist. I disagree but I have no stake on the matter.

I'm unvaccinated not because I reject vaccination. I do find it weird that people would not vaccinate out of rejection (and those that do out if fear). I disagree with provaxxers saying unvaccinated people putting people in danger, but I have no stake (emotional investment) in the area.

It is what it is.

I can speak of it calmly until a provaxxer already have opinions about me and use their "dislike" to discredit my opinion.

THAT is what I dislike. Sarcasm, attitude, redness, and insults.

Civil conversation about vaccinations, I'm cool. I move on.
So why are you unvaccinated? (I assume, the way you wrote it, that this is by choice and not simply because it simply hasn't been your turn yet)
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
So why are you unvaccinated? (I assume, the way you wrote it, that this is by choice and not simply because it simply hasn't been your turn yet)

It's a choice.

I'm not sure what you mean by hasn't been my turn yet. Though, my reasons are non-FDA approve, side affects, and gut feeling. Though I had others but I'm forgetting what I wrote each time someone ask given each one has been discredited.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I see so taking medical advice from doctors of medicine is no, no i your book?

See post #146 by @Jayhawker Soule

What does more likely mean in this context (no ?) ... unvaccinated people have been more likely before the vaccine thing came up. You just lowered your risk. We're (unvaccinated) still at the same risk. Our risks won't be "more" likely unless we put ourselves in position-say work with COVID patients, travel, or high populated areas-that would make our risks and assessment of getting the vaccine more immediate than others.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
It's a choice.

So what motivated that choice?

I'm not sure what you mean by hasn't been my turn yet

Over here in Belgium, the vaccination process is planned out in detail. A priority has been set. First the elderly and those at risk. Then those older then 65. Then those older then 50. Then those older then 35 (I'm in that group and got my first shot a week or two ago). Etc.

When "your turn" comes up, you get an invitation with a couple of options for scheduling. If none of the options suite you, or if you refuse alltogether, you go to the back of the line and get reinvited at the very end of the process.

I'm assuming it's similar in other countries.


Though, my reasons are non-FDA approve

I just checked the FDA website. They are approved, no?

, side affects

What side effects?
I didn't feel a thing.

Also, take whatever FDA approved meds you have in your house and which you also take. No matter which one. Take the info sheet out. Check the "known side effects" section. I'm guessing those don't stop you from taking those meds.

Just for fun, I checked the known side effects of non-prescription pain killers that just about everybody has in their home and which are given all the time by doctors and hospitals. One of the side effects listed is "sudden death". :rolleyes:

, and gut feeling.

No comment.

Though I had others but I'm forgetting what I wrote each time someone ask given each one has been discredited.

Ok.


Sounds to me like your objections aren't reasonable.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
And if they are against it, isn't that their choice?
@Unveiled Artist is certainly acting as if she's against the vaccine, but she insists she's "neutral."


Even if they do get covid it won't hurt the vaccinated people, they are protected.
A foolish statement.

One way that this matters: the vaccines we have now are effective against the variants of concern that are out there right now.

The more unvaccinated people there are out there, the more infections we'll have. The more infections we have, the more new variants will emerge. The more variants that emerge, the higher the likelihood of new variants that our current vaccines aren't effective against.

So yes: refusal to vaccinate could very well hurt vaccinated people.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
No. I said I go to my doctors to make medical decisions.

I make no excuses on not taking the vaccine.
It's a decision regardless people's opinions.


Oh right so all the excuses you've given, both valid and invalid arw not excuses at all,fair enough
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
So what motivated that choice?

Experimental, side affects, gut feeling, and FDA approval (instead of emergency approval).

With medications and treatments FDA approval takes awhile and most people with non-emergencies tend to take treatments that are FDA approved unless, maybe, they "are" in a life/death emergency where treatments are needed immediately.

Over here in Belgium, the vaccination process is planned out in detail. A priority has been set. First the elderly and those at risk. Then those older then 65. Then those older then 50. Then those older then 35 (I'm in that group and got my first shot a week or two ago). Etc.

I'm assuming it's similar in other countries.

Same here. They're very proficient. I don't know if other countries "convince" people to take the COVID vaccine.

Will FDA Speed Up Full Approval Process For Covid Vaccines?
How does the FDA approve vaccines? - UChicago Medicine

I just checked the FDA website. They are approved, no?

Emergency approval.

COVID-19 Vaccines

What side effects?
I didn't feel a thing.

Also, take whatever FDA approved meds you have in your house and which you also take. No matter which one. Take the info sheet out. Check the "known side effects" section. I'm guessing those don't stop you from taking those meds.

Just for fun, I checked the known side effects of non-prescription pain killers that just about everybody has in their home and which are given all the time by doctors and hospitals. One of the side effects listed is "sudden death".

Not heart inflammations, blood clots, and things like that. I don't believe a lot of people with personal testimonies are lying even if they are discredited or pushed under the rug.

COVID-19 Vaccination

Ok.

Sounds to me like your objections aren't reasonable.

What would you consider a reasonable decisions outside medical exemptions?
 
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