Who has the burden of proof?

[Awkward Fingers]

I'm confused. How does gnosticism enter the discussion? I admire gnosticism but do not understand how it relates.

Between this and post #336, there's either some serious comprehension difficulties at work, or you're just playing with us here...

 

[raw_thought]

"Once again, I honestly don't believe that there's anyone in the world who can honestly calculate the degree of their certainty about anything like that. A theist is someone who says "I believe there is a God". That's it."
ImmortalFlame

Science is based on agnosticism ( skepticism) about all propositions. True, I may be 99.99999% sure of the Copernican theory, but I am skeptical to declare that an absolute fact.
I am convinced that agnosticism is the only rational option. Atheism ( the belief that there is definitely no God) is still faith, even tho based on probabilities.

In other words if there is even 1% doubt about a proposition its agnosticism. YES!!! We agree!

 

[raw_thought]

Between this and post #336, there's either some serious comprehension difficulties at work, or you're just playing with us here...

OK, explain how gnosticism enters our discussion. Are you saying that gnostics do not define God? I can agree. But even then its superfluous to the topic and actually reinforces my point!
Perhaps you are confusing agnosticism with gnosticism?

 

[Awkward Fingers]

OK, explain how gnosticism enters our discussion. Are you saying that gnostics do not define God? I can agree. But even then its superfluous to the topic and actually reinforces my point!

Sure, but do me one favor first, and reference the first post that uses the word "gnosticism" for me.
Just to make sure were not talking about different posts.
I used gnostic and agnostic, of the root Greek word that means knowledge, which is how its used for things like "agnostic atheist" and "gnostic theist" like I explained.

Also, you're making up a completely arbitrary definition
of atheist, atheism doesn't require the belief that there can not be a God.
That is as logically sound as me saying that everything you've typed so far is wrong, because we all know agnostics are required to end all sentences with "as far as I know"

 

[ImmortalFlame]

"Once again, I honestly don't believe that there's anyone in the world who can honestly calculate the degree of their certainty about anything like that. A theist is someone who says "I believe there is a God". That's it."
ImmortalFlame
In other words if there is even 1% doubt about a proposition its agnosticism. YES!!! We agree!

I really don't think we do, since you seem to be making absolutely no sense whatsoever. I have repeatedly explained to you that you use of "percentages" with regards to certainty is totally inane, and that agnosticism and gnosticism deal strictly with knowledge, not belief. A person can believe a claim without being certain of the claim - hence why people are able to change their minds about things.

Do you understand the difference between saying "I believe X is true" and saying "I am absolutely 100% certain that X is true"?

 

[raw_thought]

So you are saying that one can believe something and say they know that they are wrong?
"... they would never say that Santa does not exist. It would be like saying, " I believe in Santa even tho I know he does not exist."
That makes no sense to me. Its as bad as saying "I believe X, even tho I know that I am wrong.""
from post 327 also see posts 321 and 325

The above is post 336
PLEASE! Explain how that post is not consistent with what I have said.

 

[Awkward Fingers]

For example, I am am agnostic atheist.
I don't believe in god because I've never seen reason to, once I started looking at my own faith.
I don't know if there is, or is not a god, but until I see suitable reason to believe there is one, I will continue acting as if there is not.
I am not gnostic in my claim, I do not know there is no god.
I am agnostic in my claim.
I am not theistic in my claim, I do not claim there is a god, I am atheistic.

Agnostic atheist. There might be a god, our gods, but I currently have no reason to believe that claim is true.

 

[raw_thought]

Sure, but do me one favor first, and reference the first post that uses the word "gnosticism" for me.
Just to make sure were not talking about different posts.
I used gnostic and agnostic, of the root Greek word that means knowledge, which is how its used for things like "agnostic atheist" and "gnostic theist" like I explained.

Also, you're making up a completely arbitrary definition
of atheist, atheism doesn't require the belief that there can not be a God.
That is as logically sound as me saying that everything you've typed so far is wrong, because we all know agnostics are required to end all sentences with "as far as I know"

So , atheism is not the belief that their is no God? That if you have doubts about the existence of God you are an atheist? Sounds more like agnosticism too me!

 

[raw_thought]

I really don't think we do, since you seem to be making absolutely no sense whatsoever. I have repeatedly explained to you that you use of "percentages" with regards to certainty is totally inane, and that agnosticism and gnosticism deal strictly with knowledge, not belief. A person can believe a claim without being certain of the claim - hence why people are able to change their minds about things.

Do you understand the difference between saying "I believe X is true" and saying "I am absolutely 100% certain that X is true"?

Yes! See my previous posts! Start at post 313!

 

[ImmortalFlame]

So , atheism is not the belief that their is no God?

Yes.

That if you have doubts about the existence of God you are an atheist?

No.

Sounds more like agnosticism too me!

They're not mutually exclusive positions! What is it about the fact that a person can be an atheist and an agnostic that you find difficult to understand? Do you not understand how the statement "I don't believe there is a God, but I don't know that there isn't a God" can be perfectly valid?

Yes! See my previous posts!

I have looked at your previous posts, and most of them make about as much sense as what I am responding to.

What do you think agnosticism means? Because, from what I've read of your posts so far, you seem very confused on the subject of what the word actually refers to.

 

[Awkward Fingers]

So , atheism is not the belief that their is no God? That if you have doubts about the existence of God you are an atheist? Sounds more like agnosticism too me!

CORRECT, atheism is not the belief that there is no god. If you believe that, you are an atheist, but its not required.
Atheism, us the lack of a belief in god or gods. That's all it is.
A-theism. Not theism. "are you theistic? No? Then your not theistic, a-theistic"
I used to call myself am agnostic to, to be honest, until I looked into atheism more, and realized they are not mutually exclusive words.

Gnostic is a knowledge claim. Theism is a stance on gods.
Agnostic atheism is what I fall under.
Its quite possibly what you fall under, as well.
But I'm not going to stop you from just using the term agnostic but honestly, learn what atheism means, then. Because you are using it incorrectly.

They are not mutually exclusive. You can be an atheist, and agnostic in your claim.

Gnostic atheist (hard atheism) there is no god.
Agnostic atheism, there may be a god, I'm not convinced
Agnostic theism, there may be a god, I prefer to think there is one, so that's how I'll live
Gnostic theism, I know there is a god, and that's why I believe.

 

[Awkward Fingers]

Agnostic atheism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[raw_thought]

Yes.




They're not mutually exclusive positions! What is it about the fact that a person can be an atheist and an agnostic that you find difficult to understand? Do you not understand how the statement "I don't believe there is a God, but I don't know that there isn't a God" can be perfectly valid?


.

So an atheist can be an agnostic? A theist can be an agnostic?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

So an atheist can be an agnostic? A theist can be an agnostic?

Yes. I've already said and explained that at least twice.

 

[Awkward Fingers]

So an atheist can be an agnostic? A theist can be an agnostic?

Oh, I was so ready to cheer, that you actually understood it, until that face palm.
But YES
YES A MILLION TIMES YES.
They
Are
Not
Mutually
Exclusive.

They denote separate things.

Gnostic claim. I know, vs I don't know, but I think.

Theistic claim, god or gods, yes/no
An atheist, and a theist can be gnostic, or agnostic.

 

[Awkward Fingers]

I'll repost this part..
Gnostic atheist (hard atheism) there is no god. Agnostic atheism, there may be a god, I'm not convinced Agnostic theism, there may be a god, I prefer to think there is one, so that's how I'll live Gnostic theism, I know there is a god, and that's why I believe.

Picture them like an x axis, vs a y axis..
Up and down id gnostic or agnostic, whether you "know"or not
Left and right are theistic, if that knowledge our belief if that a god exists.

G Agnostic theist l gnostic theist
O ___________________l_____________________
D Agnostic atheist l gnostic atheist

K N O W L E D G E

 

[RitalinOhD]

That seems like more of an agnostic position leaning on atheism.

As a strong atheist, I claim knowledge.

How is it you've been here this long and still don't understand the very concise and clear definition of atheist?

I don't believe in any gods. Period. That is how atheism is defined. Lack of belief in a God or gods. More to the point, as I don't claim knowledge that a God or gods definitely dont exist, that would make me an agnostic atheist.

And by your definition, a strong atheist is the same as a gnostic atheist. Therefore, a "weak" atheist would not claim knowledge, yet would still lack belief.

It really gets tiresome having to rehash this over and over.

 

[Awkward Fingers]

How is it you've been here this long and still don't understand the very concise and clear definition of atheist?

I don't believe in any gods. Period. That is how atheism is defined. Lack of belief in a God or gods. More to the point, as I don't claim knowledge that a God or gods definitely dont exist, that would make me an agnostic atheist.

And by your definition, a strong atheist is the same as a gnostic atheist. Therefore, a "weak" atheist would not claim knowledge, yet would still lack belief.

It really gets tiresome having to rehash this over and over.

Frubals for that last line.

 

[outhouse]

How is it you've been here this long and still don't understand the very concise and clear definition of atheist?

I don't believe in any gods. Period. That is how atheism is defined. Lack of belief in a God or gods. More to the point, as I don't claim knowledge that a God or gods definitely dont exist, that would make me an agnostic atheist.

And by your definition, a strong atheist is the same as a gnostic atheist. Therefore, a "weak" atheist would not claim knowledge, yet would still lack belief.

It really gets tiresome having to rehash this over and over.

As much as I wish there was a clear cut definition, wiki page is not going to get any smaller describing the concept.

Because of the overlapping areas of implicit atheism, I see no changes soon.

 

[Willamena]

Agnostic atheism, there may be a god, I'm not convinced
Agnostic theism, there may be a god, I prefer to think there is one, so that's how I'll live

If "gnostic" is a knowledge claim, then this stance does the agnostic theist a complete disservice. That "I prefer" a thought is not the same as actually having one.