Who has the burden of proof?

[RitalinOhD]

As much as I wish there was a clear cut definition, wiki page is not going to get any smaller describing the concept.

Because of the overlapping areas of implicit atheism, I see no changes soon.

Let's try this then and see how it goes.

Do you accept that the term "atheist" is defined by the lack of belief in a deity?

 

[Awkward Fingers]

If "gnostic" is a knowledge claim, then this stance does the agnostic theist a complete disservice. That "I prefer" a thought is not the same as actually having one.

Fair enough, I'll reword.
How about; agnostic theist- I can't say for absolute surety there is a god, but I believe there is one.

 

[idav]

Fair enough, I'll reword.
How about; agnostic theist- I can't say for absolute surety there is a god, but I believe there is one.

A person knows whether they believe or not. You don't have to be sure you just have to believe. Like jurors weigh evidence and make a decision without probably ever knowing for sure. The juror even assumes doubt if evidence is lacking.

 

[Thief]

A person knows whether they believe or not. You don't have to be sure you just have to believe. Like jurors weigh evidence and make a decision without probably ever knowing for sure. The juror even assumes doubt if evidence is lacking.

I've heard people say they don't know what to believe.

Doubting someone's guilt might not compare to doubting their existence.

 

[raw_thought]

Yes. I've already said and explained that at least twice.

One can be an agnostic that tends toward theism. However, by definition he is not a theist.

 

[raw_thought]

Between this and post #336, there's either some serious comprehension difficulties at work, or you're just playing with us here...

You honestly do not understand post 336?!!!!!!
Here it is,
"So you are saying that one can believe something and say they know that they are wrong?
"... they would never say that Santa does not exist. It would be like saying, " I believe in Santa even tho I know he does not exist."
That makes no sense to me. Its as bad as saying "I believe X, even tho I know that I am wrong.""
from post 327 also see posts 321 and 325"
It is hard to make the obvious simpler but I will try. There is a spectrum. atheist-agnostic-theist. If one has any doubts that there is a God one is an agnostic. If one has any doubts that there is no God one is an agnostic. One can be an agnostic that favors theism. One can be an agnostic that favors atheism. To say that one can have doubts and still be a theist ( or atheist) makes the term "agnostic" indistinguishable from theist or atheist.*
Note that I used the word "never". In other words, if someone is so far to the theist side of the spectrum that they can never say that God does not exist, they can no longer be considered agnostic. That would mean that there position is self-contradictory.
* Are you are claiming that someone that 51% believes is a theist? Obviously there are degrees of belief. For example, I might be more prepared to believe in extraterrestrials than that Elvis was from Pluto. Even if probabilities of belief cannot be quantified, that adds to my case. Any doubt then becomes proof of agnosticism.

 

[Parsimony]

It is hard to make the obvious simpler but I will try. There is a spectrum. atheist-agnostic-theist. If one has any doubts that there is a God one is an agnostic. If one has any doubts that there is no God one is an agnostic. One can be an agnostic that favors theism. One can be an agnostic that favors atheism. To say that one can have doubts and still be a theist ( or atheist) makes the term "agnostic" indistinguishable from theist or atheist.

If we are going to be that technical, then any reasonable person would be agnostic about pretty much all knowledge. There is always at least some doubt about the truth of a matter. Maybe the Earth really is flat and all of the evidence that it is round is part of some kind of supernatural conspiracy to fool me. Despite the fact that I acknowledge that such a scenario could be true, it doesn't mean that I am an agnostic in any practical sense about the Earth's roundness since I consider such a conspiracy to be highly unlikely.

 

[RitalinOhD]

One can be an agnostic that tends toward theism. However, by definition he is not a theist.

I don't know where you are getting your definitions, but they are demonstrably wrong.

 

[raw_thought]

Fair enough, I'll reword.
How about; agnostic theist- I can't say for absolute surety there is a god, but I believe there is one.

Agreed! One is an agnostic that favors theism.

 

[raw_thought]

For example, I am am agnostic atheist.
I don't believe in god because I've never seen reason to, once I started looking at my own faith.
I don't know if there is, or is not a god, but until I see suitable reason to believe there is one, I will continue acting as if there is not.
I am not gnostic in my claim, I do not know there is no god.
I am agnostic in my claim.
I am not theistic in my claim, I do not claim there is a god, I am atheistic.

Agnostic atheist. There might be a god, our gods, but I currently have no reason to believe that claim is true.

Yes, you are an agnostic that favors atheism. You are not an atheist.

 

[RitalinOhD]

Agreed! One is an agnostic that favors theism.

No, that is a theist that doesn't claim absolute knowledge.

The act of believing in a deity makes that person a theist. The definition of theist is not debatable. It's already been defined.

 

[raw_thought]

I don't know where you are getting your definitions, but they are demonstrably wrong.

read post 366! Simply insulting me is not only rude but shows a lack of debate skills. Please actually make an argument!!

 

[raw_thought]

I don't know where you are getting your definitions, but they are demonstrably wrong.

atheism
[ey-thee-iz-uh m] Spell Syllables
Examples Word Origin
noun
1.
the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
2.
disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.

Atheism | Define Atheism at Dictionary.com
theism
[thee-iz-uh m] Spell Syllables
Word Origin
noun
1.
the belief in one God as the creator and ruler of the universe, without rejection of revelation (distinguished from deism ).
2.
belief in the existence of a god or gods (opposed to atheism ).
Theism | Define Theism at Dictionary.com
agnosticism
[ag-nos-tuh-siz-uh m] Spell Syllables
Word Origin
noun
1.
the doctrine or belief of an agnostic.
2.
an intellectual doctrine or attitude affirming the uncertainty of all claims to ultimate knowledge.
Agnosticism | Define Agnosticism at Dictionary.com
If you are uncertain about a proposition, you are agnostic about that proposition.
Note that the definition does not specify the level of uncertainty.
PS: You really should get a dictionary!

 

[RitalinOhD]

atheism
[ey-thee-iz-uh m] Spell Syllables
Examples Word Origin
noun
1.
the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
2.
disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.

Atheism | Define Atheism at Dictionary.com
theism
[thee-iz-uh m] Spell Syllables
Word Origin
noun
1.
the belief in one God as the creator and ruler of the universe, without rejection of revelation (distinguished from deism ).
2.
belief in the existence of a god or gods (opposed to atheism ).
Theism | Define Theism at Dictionary.com
agnosticism
[ag-nos-tuh-siz-uh m] Spell Syllables
Word Origin
noun
1.
the doctrine or belief of an agnostic.
2.
an intellectual doctrine or attitude affirming the uncertainty of all claims to ultimate knowledge.
Agnosticism | Define Agnosticism at Dictionary.com
If you are uncertain about a proposition, you are agnostic about that proposition.
PS: You really should get a dictionary!

Thanks for proving my point.

A person that believes in a deity but does not claim "ultimate knowledge" is an agnostic theist. The lack of "ultimate knowledge" is where the agnosticism comes from, not the theism (belief in a deity).

P.S. you really should brush up on reading comprehension.

 

[raw_thought]

Thanks for proving my point.

A person that believes in a deity but does not claim "ultimate knowledge" is an agnostic theist. The lack of "ultimate knowledge" is where the agnosticism comes from, not the theism (belief in a deity).

P.S. you really should brush up on reading comprehension.

UMMM Scroll back. So now you are claiming that my position was yours??!!! I have said over and over that one can be an agnostic theist. In other words an agnostic that favors theism. He is an agnostic because he is uncertain, however, he is not a theist ( even tho he favors that position). Why? because, well see the dictionary for the definition of theist!
Ironically, the post i quoted shows that you agree that a believer has no doubts. If he could have doubts, you would not have added the word "agnostic".

 

[raw_thought]

If we are going to be that technical, then any reasonable person would be agnostic about pretty much all knowledge. There is always at least some doubt about the truth of a matter. Maybe the Earth really is flat and all of the evidence that it is round is part of some kind of supernatural conspiracy to fool me. Despite the fact that I acknowledge that such a scenario could be true, it doesn't mean that I am an agnostic in any practical sense about the Earth's roundness since I consider such a conspiracy to be highly unlikely.

I agree! Any reasonable person is agnostic! However, to differentiate them from true believers ( and there are many) words must have definitions. Some here think that they can make up their own definitions!!!
Agnostic means uncertainty. Belief means certainty. If you say I believe X but I might be wrong, you are uncertain, an agnostic.

 

[RitalinOhD]

UMMM Scroll back. So now you are claiming that my position was yours??!!! I have said over and over that one can be an agnostic theist. In other words an agnostic that favors theism. He is an agnostic because he is uncertain, however, he is not a theist ( even tho he favors that position). Why? because, well see the dictionary for the definition of theist!

I never said a person couldn't be an agnostic theist.

Where you're getting confused is your insistence that a person who has belief in a deity is somehow not a theist because he doesn't claim absolute knowledge.

You do not need, as per the definition of agnosticism that you posted, "ultimate knowledge" to hold belief in a deity.

No additional qualifiers are needed to be a theist other than saying "I believe God exists".

If you go further and say "I believe in god, however I have no absolute knowledge that he exists", then by definition you are still a theist, with the agnostic qualifier added on.

That ^^ is what you aren't grasping.

And on that note, I'm done trying to explain it. If you are still not understanding it, then maybe someone else can explain it better. Although I doubt it.

 

[raw_thought]

I never said a person couldn't be an agnostic theist.
.

????????? My whole point was that you agree with me. Or at least now you do. Yes, we agree that there are agnostic theists. An agnostic that favors theism.
You yourself, showed that you agree that "theist" means believing in God with no doubts. That is why you added "agnostic" to "theist" and got "agnostic theist." Or did you add "agnostic" for no reason?

 

[RitalinOhD]

????????? My whole point was that you agree with me. Or at least now you do. Yes, we agree that there are agnostic theists. An agnostic that favors theism.
You yourself, showed that you agree that "theist" means believing in God with no doubts. That is why you added "agnostic" to "theist" and got "agnostic theist." Or did you add "agnostic" for no reason?

 

[raw_thought]

Obviously, you are a troll. No arguments or facts, only insults. If you actually have an argument, then why not make it?
I do find it funny that you now agree that an agnostic theist is possible, and actually claim that was your idea!!!!!