Who Has the truth? Who Will Bring World Peace?

[ajay0]

The principle of headship is outlined in the Bible by the apostle Paul....

"But I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn, the head of a woman is the man; in turn, the head of the Christ is God." (1 Corinthians 11:3)

There is order in all that God does. Even Christ has a "head" who is above him. So if all in the line follow the order of Jehovah, then no one will be out of place, trying to assume or usurp a role for which God himself did not design them.

Genesis 2:18....
"God said: “It is not good for the man to continue to be alone. I am going to make a helper for him, as a complement of him.”
The role of the woman is as a "helper"...a "compliment" of her mate. A complement is something that make something else complete. As a team, working together their complimentary roles assure them of success in marriage. Respecting the headship arrangement also maintained peace and order in the congregation.

Paul goes further....
"Let a woman learn in silence with full submissiveness. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man, but she is to remain silent." (1 Timothy 2:11-12)
At first glance this appears to be rather misogynistic, but taking into account how headship is to be exercised, it was really showing respect for God's arrangement. Women could teach their children and other women who wanted extra scriptural instruction, but a woman was not permitted to teach another man, for obvious reasons.

In male dominated societies of course, things tended to become chauvinistic and the position of women fell to a level that God never intended. Either extreme is not in keeping with why the headship arrangement was so important. The "silence" that women were to maintain was in respectfully holding their tongue during worship. It did not rob them of meaningful contribution to worship.

When Paul said..."let the women keep silent in the congregations, for it is not permitted for them to speak. Rather, let them be in subjection, as the Law also says. 35 If they want to learn something, let them ask their husbands at home, for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the congregation." (1 Corinthians 14:34-35)......he was only speaking about disrespectful interruption that may have denigrated the occasion. If there were questions that needed addressing, respectful women asked them at home, not causing unnecessary distraction during Christian worship.

A woman's role is just as important as a man's....it is just different and complimentary. Only when women compete with men do we see things going wrong.

In many cultures even today, women have no rights equal to men, but in God's arrangement, women had the freedom to be wonderful assets to their husbands. Read Proverbs 31:10-31 and see the description of a "capable wife"......what a woman!

This is indeed informative. But all this stuff is said by Paul, who had actually never met Jesus and was a late convert to Christianity after years of persecuting them severely.

I am only interested in the biblical teachings as taught by Christ that women ought to be submissive to men and be under their constant subjection and ought not to be a leader-teacher of the masses.

The Prajapita Brahmakumaris is a dharmic monotheistic sect where women are the leaders, administrators and teachers and they have in a short span of time established teaching and meditation centres in India and all over the world.They have received over seven peace messenger awards from the UN for their work promoting peace and human values all over the world.

In ancient India too, there has been reference to female sages like Gargeyi and Maitreyi who had taught wisdom to the masses.

In Buddhism as well, there has been female sages and teachers like Prajnatara who travelled in eastern India teaching buddhism, and was the teacher of Bodhidharma, the founder of Zen Buddhism.

Sudiksha Ji Maharaj is a female Sikh saint who is the head of the Sikh spiritual institution, Sant Nirankari Mission.

In Sufism, Rabia Basri is considered a great female Sufi enlightened master who taught religion and spirituality to many.

There are also female enlightened sages in modern times like Anandmurti Gurumaa, Mother Meera, Sharda Devi, Anandamayi Ma, Mata Amritanandamayi, Karunamayi Ma who had successfully taught religion and spirituality to millions.

 

[Trailblazer]

Any good Bible student knows that scripture always explains scripture. We do not need a prophet from another belief system coming in to tell us what our scripture means. I find that offensive actually.

Scripture does not do DO anything but sit on a page until it is interpreted by humans...
Obviously you DO need a Prophet from another religion since none of you Christians can agree on what the Bible means.
Do you know anything about logic?

The Hebrew scriptures were written for Jews.....Christ's teachings were written for Christians.

Correction: The Hebrew scriptures were written TO Jews.....Christ's teachings were written TO Christians.
The Baha'i scriptures were likewise written TO Baha'is (assuming it would be the Baha'is who would be reading them), but no scriptures that God revealed belong to any one religion. They belong to humanity.

Religions are not really separate, not anymore than chapters in a book are separate. They are all part of one continuous revelation from God to man.

“Immerse yourselves in the ocean of My words, that ye may unravel its secrets, and discover all the pearls of wisdom that lie hid in its depths. Take heed that ye do not vacillate in your determination to embrace the truth of this Cause—a Cause through which the potentialities of the might of God have been revealed, and His sovereignty established. With faces beaming with joy, hasten ye unto Him. This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. Let him that seeketh, attain it; and as to him that hath refused to seek it—verily, God is Self-Sufficient, above any need of His creatures.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 136
​

It is religious believers who separate the religions and thereby separate themselves from everyone who has a different religion, thereby creating a sense of specialness, division, animosity, conflict and strife. Of course, I am sure Adrian has already explained this to you.

If other belief systems wish to tamper with those scriptures to support their own prophets, then we will have something to say about that.

The only way they could tamper with them would be if they made a new translation and published them. Interpreting the scriptures differently than you do is not by definition tampering.

You can SAY whatever you want to SAY, but that will not change the fact that Baha'u'llah was the Messiah and the return of Christ. Only God has anything to SAY about that, and He has already said it.

What it means to be Christian is for us to figure out....what it means to be Baha'i is entirely your problem.

But what the Bible means is up for grabs.
Everyone thinks they have the authority to interpret it and that they alone have the correct interpretation, but nobody has been given that authority by God, and that is why it is up for grabs.

 

[Deeje]

Mediumship and channeling is right, but spirit possession is not. The Prajapita Brahmakumaris claim direct channeling from God, also known as Shivalingam, Jehovah, Allah, Ahura Mazda in other religions.

They are a monotheistic sect that state God to be an incorporeal point of light.

One cannot claim channeling from God as spirit possession and the like. The Murlis derived from channeling of God talks of non-violence,non-reactivity, awareness, compassion, love and virtuous conduct, and there is nothing diabolical in them.

JW's do not see "GOD" as the deity of any faith except those who worship the God of Jesus Christ.
This God has one name only.....יְהֹוָ֣ה....YHWH (Yahweh...Jehovah. Psalm 83:18)

"Let them know that You-Your name alone is the Lord, Most High over all the earth.

יטוְיֵֽדְע֗וּ כִּי־אַתָּ֬ה שִׁמְךָ֣ יְהֹוָ֣ה לְבַדֶּ֑ךָ עֶ֜לְי֗וֹן עַל־כָּל־הָאָֽרֶץ:

Not written in the English translation due to Jewish tradition, but clearly visible in the Hebrew text.

Tehillim - Psalms - Chapter 83

In the Bible there are two "gods" mentioned who are competing for human worship. There is the true God Jehovah and the false god, satan the devil who is a pretender, stealing worship from the true God by deception. One of his deceptions is spiritism. God's law forbade his people to have anything to do with it. (Deuteronomy 18:9-12) Channeling to us would be spiritistic.

Every religion has so-called 'extreme beliefs', and so do the Jehovah's Witnesses, Muslims and Jews.

Out of interest, what beliefs of ours do you consider "extreme"?

I do not perceive any 'extreme beliefs' in the Prajapita Brahmakumaris. They are strictly vegetarian but vegetarianism is now a health fad all around the world, as it is linked to lesser incidence of heart disease, cancer and other diseases as per scientific research. It is also linked to lower levels of global warming .

The difference between those who promote strict health regimes and Christians is choice. We have those among us who are vegetarians, vegans, those who fast, etc, but there are no rules concerning those things because they are not written as commands in scripture.....we choose whether to do those things or not.

Unfortunately, the state of our health is not always our choice, but there is no doubt that certain dietary regimes do promote a healthier body. We can choose it if we wish. Commands OTOH are a different story. These we obey strictly.

 

[Deeje]

This is indeed informative. But all this stuff is said by Paul, who had actually never met Jesus and was a late convert to Christianity after years of persecuting them severely.

I am only interested in the biblical teachings as taught by Christ that women ought to be submissive to men and be under their constant subjection and ought not to be a leader-teacher of the masses.

What do you know about Paul?

It is true that Saul of Tarsus (as he was formerly known) was a Pharisee, intent on bringing as many Christians to justice as he could. (Acts ch 9) His zeal for God's worship was his prime motivational force, but it was misdirected.....an encounter with the resurrected Jesus Christ on the road to Damascus changed his life forever.

He became known as the apostle Paul and though not ever meeting Jesus in the flesh, he was commissioned by him as "an apostle to the nations". He was never one of the 12....but like the other apostles, he was personally instructed by Jesus, through the operation of God's spirit....he was not taught by the other apostles, who came to accept him as their brother in Christ, after he had proven himself to them.

Paul was so different to the 12 and for good reason did Jesus tell Ananias that he was "a chosen vessel to me to bear my name to the nations as well as to kings and the sons of Israel. 16 For I will show him plainly how many things he must suffer for my name.”" (Acts 9:5)

As a Pharisee, Saul was well educated (in contrast to the 12 who were not educated men at all by Jewish standards.) Paul's education and his Roman citizenship took him to places that others could never have gone.
He was able to address the learned Greek philosophers as well as the nation's rulers with the persuasive speeches of an educated man.

His Roman citizenship allowed him privileges that the other apostles were not able to call on. Jesus taught Paul everything he knew...so I am always surprised when people question his credentials. He wrote more NT scripture than any of the other apostles.

Under the Jewish arrangement, no women were priests or teachers in the synagogues. Paul was not creating a new paradigm, but simply continuing what was always taught in Judaism. Abraham's wife Sarah was a submissive wife. It didn't mean that she had no opinion or a voice for her concerns, but she understood her place in God's arrangement. (1 Peter 3:6)

Jesus' mother Mary was another example of a submissive Jewish wife. Joseph was a carpenter and taught the young Jesus his trade as was common back then. Mary had at least six children in what was a typical, devout Jewish family. They always put God's worship first.
The Law did not require women to attend the Passover celebration. Yet, it was Mary’s custom to accompany Joseph on the annual journey to Jerusalem for the festival. (Exodus 23:17; Exodus 34:23) Each year, they made the trip with their growing family. It may have been a round-trip of nearly 300 km (190 mi) through hilly terrain.

Understanding the way women were treated in those times helps us to see why Jesus had so many women among his close friends. Many women of faith were chosen for life in the heavenly Kingdom along with their male companions.

 

[ajay0]

JW's do not see "GOD" as the deity of any faith except those who worship the God of Jesus Christ.
This God has one name only.....יְהֹוָ֣ה....YHWH (Yahweh...Jehovah. Psalm 83:18)

The Prajapita Brahmakumaris perceive Shivalingam, Jehovah, Allah, Ahura Mazda to be one and the same.

They do not create any divisions between religions and emphasize the unity of all religions, which is necessary for peace and harmony.

In the Bible there are two "gods" mentioned who are competing for human worship. There is the true God Jehovah and the false god, satan the devil who is a pretender, stealing worship from the true God by deception. One of his deceptions is spiritism. God's law forbade his people to have anything to do with it. (Deuteronomy 18:9-12) Channeling to us would be spiritistic.

By channeling I also mean intuitive communication. Jesus himself communicated with God intuitively and not person to person. No one criticises him for spiritism.

The false god or Satan, in the Dharmic religions is described as Maya/Mara, which stands for the psychological impressions or vasanas in one's own mind that promotes desires in the form of cravings and aversions, especially when they transcend virtuous conduct for the sake of transitory pleasures.

It is not an actual person or demon, but one's own mind that is the source of negativity.

"Monks, I know not of any other single thing that brings such woe as the mind that is untamed, uncontrolled, unguarded and unrestrained. Such a mind indeed brings great woe.

"Monks, I know not of any other single thing that brings such bliss as the mind that is tamed, controlled, guarded and restrained. Such a mind indeed brings great bliss." - Buddha (Anguttara Nikaya)

 

[ajay0]

What do you know about Paul?

It is true that Saul of Tarsus (as he was formerly known) was a Pharisee, intent on bringing as many Christians to justice as he could. (Acts ch 9) His zeal for God's worship was his prime motivational force, but it was misdirected.....an encounter with the resurrected Jesus Christ on the road to Damascus changed his life forever.

He became known as the apostle Paul and though not ever meeting Jesus in the flesh, he was commissioned by him as "an apostle to the nations". He was never one of the 12....but like the other apostles, he was personally instructed by Jesus, through the operation of God's spirit....he was not taught by the other apostles, who came to accept him as their brother in Christ, after he had proven himself to them.

Paul was so different to the 12 and for good reason did Jesus tell Ananias that he was "a chosen vessel to me to bear my name to the nations as well as to kings and the sons of Israel. 16 For I will show him plainly how many things he must suffer for my name.”" (Acts 9:5)

As a Pharisee, Saul was well educated (in contrast to the 12 who were not educated men at all by Jewish standards.) Paul's education and his Roman citizenship took him to places that others could never have gone.
He was able to address the learned Greek philosophers as well as the nation's rulers with the persuasive speeches of an educated man.

His Roman citizenship allowed him privileges that the other apostles were not able to call on. Jesus taught Paul everything he knew...so I am always surprised when people question his credentials. He wrote more NT scripture than any of the other apostles.

Under the Jewish arrangement, no women were priests or teachers in the synagogues. Paul was not creating a new paradigm, but simply continuing what was always taught in Judaism. Abraham's wife Sarah was a submissive wife. It didn't mean that she had no opinion or a voice for her concerns, but she understood her place in God's arrangement. (1 Peter 3:6)

Jesus' mother Mary was another example of a submissive Jewish wife. Joseph was a carpenter and taught the young Jesus his trade as was common back then. Mary had at least six children in what was a typical, devout Jewish family. They always put God's worship first.
The Law did not require women to attend the Passover celebration. Yet, it was Mary’s custom to accompany Joseph on the annual journey to Jerusalem for the festival. (Exodus 23:17; Exodus 34:23) Each year, they made the trip with their growing family. It may have been a round-trip of nearly 300 km (190 mi) through hilly terrain.

Understanding the way women were treated in those times helps us to see why Jesus had so many women among his close friends. Many women of faith were chosen for life in the heavenly Kingdom along with their male companions.

Okay, but the fact remains that he had no contact with the living Christ, and had only converted to Christianity after years of persecuting them.

I do not regard him as an enlightened one, and am only interested in Christ's teachings in this regard, as aforementioned, which you have failed to provide as well.

 

[savagewind]

J

In the Bible there are two "gods" mentioned who are competing for human worship.

SIGH! No, I have to wonder, God help me! where the idea comes from that God is "competing".

Hebrews 2:10

For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

 

[savagewind]

Do I really need to explain it?

 

[RedhorseWoman]

Again, I can vouch for this, though I think I have heard from @Deeje that she doesn't count her time on the forum as preaching, or it was someone else.

Oh! What a waste of precious time I often believed my field service was and the directive to record and submit a person's time was the first serious disagreement I had with the JW society.

It's always interesting to see groups of JWs hurrying into a donut shop in order to take a "coffee break" while out in field service. JWs haven't stopped in our area for a really long time, and I often wonder if it's because there are no good "coffee break" places nearby.

It's possible that Deeje doesn't count her time here, but I doubt that From what she has revealed in various posts, she became a JW after she was already married, and she has been one for 46 years. That would put her in her 60s or, possibly, 70s and I'm sure that going out in field service would be somewhat difficult at this point in her life.

Couple that with the amount of time she spends here (which appears to be considerable) and the tenor of her posts, which are almost always of a "witnessing" type rather than a "discussing" or "debating" type. It's just my opinion, but I would be surprised if she wasn't counting time here. After all, that's what's important in JW-land. In order to be considered an active JW, they must report time. Luckily for her, I think that the previously required "quotas" of literature placed has been eliminated. Maybe, though, she gets to report placements by dropping off old magazines at doctors' offices or laundromats?

 

[savagewind]

It's always interesting to see groups of JWs hurrying into a donut shop in order to take a "coffee break" while out in field service. JWs haven't stopped in our area for a really long time, and I often wonder if it's because there are no good "coffee break" places nearby.

It's possible that Deeje doesn't count her time here, but I doubt that From what she has revealed in various posts, she became a JW after she was already married, and she has been one for 46 years. That would put her in her 60s or, possibly, 70s and I'm sure that going out in field service would be somewhat difficult at this point in her life.

Couple that with the amount of time she spends here (which appears to be considerable) and the tenor of her posts, which are almost always of a "witnessing" type rather than a "discussing" or "debating" type. It's just my opinion, but I would be surprised if she wasn't counting time here. After all, that's what's important in JW-land. In order to be considered an active JW, they must report time. Luckily for her, I think that the previously required "quotas" of literature placed has been eliminated. Maybe, though, she gets to report placements by dropping off old magazines at doctors' offices or laundromats?

All true, but.........LOL

I have not seen @Deeje debating. She used to notice me and it wasn't good, but it was something. But now, I seem to be dead to her. You too, by the way. When another poster is put on ignore nothing can be seen of their posts. I wouldn't be surprised if some JWs here private message other JWs here to tell them about the likes of us. Put them on IGNORE! But, I have none ignored. It is a weakness to ignore everything, I think.

Now, that post might be on the edge. Be careful about that kind. We don't want to lose you.

 

[Vinayaka]

It's always interesting to see groups of JWs hurrying into a donut shop in order to take a "coffee break" while out in field service. JWs haven't stopped in our area for a really long time, and I often wonder if it's because there are no good "coffee break" places nearby.

It's possible that Deeje doesn't count her time here, but I doubt that From what she has revealed in various posts, she became a JW after she was already married, and she has been one for 46 years. That would put her in her 60s or, possibly, 70s and I'm sure that going out in field service would be somewhat difficult at this point in her life.

Couple that with the amount of time she spends here (which appears to be considerable) and the tenor of her posts, which are almost always of a "witnessing" type rather than a "discussing" or "debating" type. It's just my opinion, but I would be surprised if she wasn't counting time here. After all, that's what's important in JW-land. In order to be considered an active JW, they must report time. Luckily for her, I think that the previously required "quotas" of literature placed has been eliminated. Maybe, though, she gets to report placements by dropping off old magazines at doctors' offices or laundromats?

When the higher-ups ask for a report of what you've done in the evangelizing department, and time spent. I'm sure time on the internet would be thought highly of, if not officially counting.

 

[savagewind]

When the higher-ups ask for a report of what you've done in the evangelizing department, and time spent. I'm sure time on the internet would be thought highly of, if not officially counting.

NOT be thought highly of. Jehovah's Witnesses are warned about worldly web sites. They are cautioned to go only to the JW official site. But, that was ten years ago. I do not know the present light.

 

[savagewind]

My opinion? When people see that the Jehovah's Witnesses are not open to even consider any other point of view it is a turnoff. So if I was the governing body I would forbid chat rooms too.

 

[Vinayaka]

NOT be thought highly of. Jehovah's Witnesses are warned about worldly web sites. They are cautioned to go only to the JW official site. But, that was ten years ago. I do not know the present light.

I understand the drive to proselytize to be very strong. It must take a ton of determination to keep doing it, despite the many setbacks and people against it. So if indeed someone was unable due to age to go out, the internet may well be the answer. Not like real life, but still.

 

[savagewind]

I understand the drive to proselytize to be very strong. It must take a ton of determination to keep doing it, despite the many setbacks and people against it. So if indeed someone was unable due to age to go out, the internet may well be the answer. Not like real life, but still.

Yes, they might cut her some slack.

 

[RedhorseWoman]

When the higher-ups ask for a report of what you've done in the evangelizing department, and time spent. I'm sure time on the internet would be thought highly of, if not officially counting.

Actually, no. The WTS has sternly counseled JWs to stay off forums like this. The only acceptable internet site (other than for research or online shopping) is JW.org They constantly warn JWs about staying away from any site where "apostates" might be present.

Also, the WTS has actively worked to shut down forums created by JWs where they would simply interact and possibly share study materials.

 

[RedhorseWoman]

All true, but.........LOL

I have not seen @Deeje debating. She used to notice me and it wasn't good, but it was something. But now, I seem to be dead to her. You too, by the way. When another poster is put on ignore nothing can be seen of their posts. I wouldn't be surprised if some JWs here private message other JWs here to tell them about the likes of us. Put them on IGNORE! But, I have none ignored. It is a weakness to ignore everything, I think.

Now, that post might be on the edge. Be careful about that kind. We don't want to lose you.

I'm sure that both of us are on IGNORE. It is sad to think that we are considered to be such fearsome individuals that they have to ignore everything we post.

 

[RedhorseWoman]

My opinion? When people see that the Jehovah's Witnesses are not open to even consider any other point of view it is a turnoff. So if I was the governing body I would forbid chat rooms too.

I think that they do counsel against chat rooms.

 

[RedhorseWoman]

I understand the drive to proselytize to be very strong. It must take a ton of determination to keep doing it, despite the many setbacks and people against it. So if indeed someone was unable due to age to go out, the internet may well be the answer. Not like real life, but still.

It does take determination, but JWs also know that if they don't turn in a field service report every month, they will not be considered to be active JWs, and will be looked down upon as slackers.

 

[RedhorseWoman]

Yes, they might cut her some slack.

Well, if she just turns in her field service report and doesn't tell anyone how she got her time in, they probably would think that it was due to incidental witnessing rather than on a forum where "apostates" roam.