Who Has the truth? Who Will Bring World Peace?

[osgart]

And what becomes of the honest atheist in these religions? Shall we stand aside in despair at the waiting of all these kingdoms to come. Those that reject atheists live in a vacuum.

Sure i would love an upright God to teach us in the ways of everlasting life. Honestly i do not see one though!

I dont see life as a wager of belief and faith, whereas the obviousness of God stands out to all who would only seek in earnest. I fail your test of fitness because honestly i did seek quite long and hard, and it was my honesty that failed to see any real God forthcoming.

I suppose it runs well to consider an honest atheist an infidel. But what if you are all wrong, and this life is really chalk full of true unknowns, and what if this is the only life there is ever going to be? And what if some of those atheists were morally decent and compassionate, and kind, and even merciful?

What if ya had a blind eye to reality, and the honest atheist?

I always come across ideologies that run to fight the battles against the godless as infidels. And yes there are those godless ideologies that seek power and control, and conformity or else! And there are godless ideologies that seek to dominate and destroy to be rulers of earth.

But stepping outside of all ideologies when are humans going to accept other humans on the basis of what is in their hearts if and when those hearts choose the ways of goodness regardless of their beliefs and ideologies. And by goodness i mean the ways of compassion and empathy, and love for others.

And if ya had only one short life to live, how would you choose to live it?

 

[Dawnofhope]

No Adrian, I don't have to prove myself at all.....I am just a messenger, so all I have to prove is the Bible's truth.

We are all messengers but who do we represent and what is our message? You represent the JWs with a message of impending destruction of civilisation as we know it.

Every time you misquote scripture I will try to correct you, and help you see other scripture that proves it, because the Bible does not contradict itself. What is the point of "I'm right and you're dead"? The better way to view it is the way it really is for us.....we give up our time and resources to bring the Kingdom message to people so as to save their lives. We come with the good news, but it has a warning attached as Jesus said. (Matthew 24:37-39)

"Just as the days of Noah".....a world filled with violence, bloodshed and immorality, Jesus said we would see this again. How many people listened to Noah? The world is again filled with violence, immorality and bloodshed.....How many people are listening today?

I quote from the same biblical scripture you do. The JWs see themselves as being the sole arbiters of biblical truth. I see the JWs as just another sect of Christianity with no more credibility that other Christian sects it vaunts itself over. So of course the JWs see themselves right and everyone else wrong.

Except Jesus of course.....no one knew scripture more accurately than he did. When his Father's word was supplanted by man-made traditions, he became very verbal about it. Should we be any different. He is the model, our teacher....we are his students. (1 Peter 2:21) When someone misrepresents God's word and distorts its message, we will call then out on it.

Who says? Among our ranks are those with very diverse educational backgrounds. These then become our teachers as they share their knowledge. We also accept trade courses and certifications through TAFE and other educational certificates online. Our education is broad.....but our spiritual education is broader because God says it is the most important. Many of us are happy being drones in the hive.....all equal, all serving our God in whatever capacity he chooses for us.

What we also try to avoid is the immorality of the drug and alcohol ridden University campuses. Not a good atmosphere for a Christian. Many are choosing to home school their children now because of the disgusting conduct of many High School students these days. Its a jungle.

I have a couple of teenage sons who are doing just fine at public high school and in their personal lives. I don't recall my own high school years or time at university being a den of iniquity. It depends on the company we keep.

We don't avoid education at all....what we avoid is the notion that one must be educated at a University in order to get a well paying job and feel successful as a human being. That is simply not true for us. We are happy to be able to pay our bills and live a simple life free from the love of money. "Things" don't make you happy because the best things in life aren't "things". Family is important to us and time spent with family should not be squandered in order to provide "things" that stop families from communicating with each other.

The research I presented provided strong evidence JWs income is relatively poor due to an inability to make use of opportunities for tertiary study.

For Baha'is the first step in personal maturity is knowing our own self and what brings out the best and worst in us. Having succeeded in living a good life we should then choose work that is suited to our talents and capacities.

... man should know his own self and recognize that which leadeth unto loftiness or lowliness, glory or abasement, wealth or poverty. Having attained the stage of fulfilment and reached his maturity, man standeth in need of wealth, and such wealth as he acquireth through crafts or professions is commendable and praiseworthy in the estimation of men of wisdom, and especially in the eyes of servants who dedicate themselves to the education of the world and to the edification of its peoples...

Bahá'í Reference Library - Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh Revealed After the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Pages 33-44

Further work from the fullness of one's heart is seen as being the same as worship of God Himself.

“[A]ll effort and exertion put forth by man from the fullness of his heart is worship, if it is prompted by the highest motives and the will to do service to humanity.”3 are ‘Abdu’l-Bahá’s words. “This is worship,” He continues, “to serve mankind and to minister to the needs of the people.”

Further, striving to excel is integral to meaningful work and disinterested service to humanity. “You must become distinguished for loving humanity, for unity and accord, for love and justice. In brief, you must become distinguished in all the virtues of the human world—for faithfulness and sincerity, for justice and fidelity, for firmness and steadfastness, for philanthropic deeds and service to the human world, for love toward every human being, for unity and accord with all people, for removing prejudices and promoting international peace”

Work and Service | What Bahá’ís Believe

Once again, the Baha'i approach is very different from the JWs.

So do we......Jesus mixed with those people in order to teach them God's ways, not because he liked the company of sinners. He admonished them to "sin no more", clean up their lives and become his followers. Those who did not want to obey the Christ never became part of his circle of spiritual brethren.

I have often heard talk about how we can love people but not like them. That sounds more like an excuse for failing to genuinely love people. I have no doubt Jesus had genuine love and affection for most He came in contact with. I reject the belief He did not like people. Sounds like the joyless and pessimistic JWs projecting their own disinterest and disdain for humanity onto Christ!?

We place greater value on life skills and a Bible education that equips us for life in the new world to come. It also sees us through the end of this decaying system with its uncertainty and insecurity. We look to the future with confidence. Don't you? But our confidence is in God, not in educational diplomas.

If I want medical advice or a house built, I go to people who are both competent and qualified.

If I want advice about what the Bible says, I'll read it myself and consider the opinions of those who have taken the time to independantly research it.

The one that seeks to eliminate God as the Creator of all that exists. The one that teaches that life must have sprung spontaneously somehow from some primeval soup many millions of years ago by totally "natural" processes. That simple lifeform then, for no apparent reason, morphed itself into all the lifeforms we see on earth, both past and present. There is not one iota of proof for any of that, but that is apparently no impediment to acceptance. One must "believe" in organic macro-evolution or be laughed out of the hallowed halls of academia.

There is no branch of science that seeks to eliminate God.

There are certainly attractive and plausible theories about the origins of life and evolution. No credence is given to how the story of creation in genesis may be literally true and how Adam might have been the first man 6,000 years ago and how Eve was created from Adam's rib.

There is no obligation to believe in evolution to study medicine. About a third of my class were Christians, a number who didn't believe in evolution.

Two things stand out for me and always have.....
1) The unity of a global brotherhood who all believe and practice one faith in every country on earth, and the love we have for one another. (John 13:34-35) The level of our spiritual education is excellent. The students in that education system will be a reflection of any human endeavor.....some are natural students and some are not. We have many resources at our disposal now to make up for any personal deficiency. Not many of us are born students or teachers.

Many denominations and faiths would make similar claims.

2) The fact that in this time of the end, a global preaching work would be carried out in all nations by Jesus disciples (Matthew 24:14)....they would have one message that would be delivered personally to the doors of their neighbors. (Matthew 10: 11-15; Matthew 28:19-20) That is what Jesus said we would do with his backing, and it is clear that there are no others who undertake this commission on a global scale. The churches of Christendom are dying because they have no message of the Kingdom to give to anyone, not even to themselves.

There is no evidence of an impending apocalypse. There are threats to humanity with the possibility of war involving weapons of mass destruction, global warming, pollution, an economic crisis or pandemic.

As I've repeated stated, the great commission, or work Christ asked in preaching the gospel to all the nations was completed by the first half of the nineteenth century. I don't credit the JWs as having contributed to that work and I don't see the work in going door to door as contributing. I do see the rapid decline of Christianity in the West (JWs included). The proportion of the population who are JWs is declining in both of our countries despite the intensive outreach.

Yes I know....its up to us to find the truth for ourselves.....the treasure is not lying on the surface, Jesus said....we have to dig for it. Most are not willing to put in the effort, so they just go along with whatever demands the least from them. Jesus however, said that the road to life was "cramped and narrow" and that "few" would even find the gate that exited the superhighway that the world was on. (Matthew 7:13-14) Its a dead end.

I believe the Christain dispensation has come to an end. Its easy for you to see Chistendom as a mirror image of Judaism and I agree it is. What you don't see is the JWs being a mirror image of the same Christendom that's in rapid decline.

It was never about being right.....

 

[Deeje]

Can 1 John 5:19...be in dispute?

"19 We know oida that hoti we are eimi children of ek · ho God theos, and kai that the ho whole holos world kosmos lies keimai in en the power of the ho evil one ponēros." (Mounce Interlinear)

The whole world is under the devil's control. He admitted it himself and Jesus did not correct him.

"And he [the devil] led Him [Jesus Christ] up and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.

And the devil said to Him, “I will give You all this domain and its glory; for it has been handed over to me, and I give it to whomever I wish." (Luke 4:5-8 NASB)

Who alone could hand the control of this world over to the devil? Only the one to whom it belonged in the first place. So God handing the devil rulership of the whole world, has a purpose.....to separate those who are children of God from those who are children of the devil....the sheep from the goats.....the wheat from the weeds.

Who disputes clear scripture, wanting it to mean something other than what it says, I wonder....? 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12. Won't it be interesting to find out....?

 

[Deeje]

But stepping outside of all ideologies when are humans going to accept other humans on the basis of what is in their hearts if and when those hearts choose the ways of goodness regardless of their beliefs and ideologies. And by goodness i mean the ways of compassion and empathy, and love for others.

And if ya had only one short life to live, how would you choose to live it?

Everything depends on who we really are as individuals. We are the person God sees, not the person we imagine ourselves to be. The easiest person on this earth to fool is ourselves. God is never fooled. He sees what we cannot....motivation, condition of heart, moral character, all the stuff we can hide...even from ourselves. This is why I believe that he is the one who 'draws' us to become attracted to his truth. He sees a spark and he feeds it. Jesus plainly said this. No one can become a disciple of Christ unless God saw some potential in that person and "draws" them to want to know more about him (John 6:44)......but at the end of the day, not all stay the course. The road is "cramped and narrow" and human beings are human beings with a great capacity for accepting whatever appeals to their flawed characters. (Matthew 7:13-14) Some, after spending time on the narrow road, find it too restrictive and return to the superhighway only to remain as lost as all the other travellers....often drowning in morbid negativity....nothing is right...everything is wrong. God will not chase after anyone. We have to accept all that he teaches of our own free will.

If God is our Creator and he has instilled a capacity for spirituality in us humans, then surely he would lead us to see the truth if it was there.....? I believe that he is choosing the citizens of his Kingdom very carefully, examining each applicant for the qualities that he is looking for.

The parable of the dragnet is interesting in this regard....

Matthew 13:47-50...
"Again the Kingdom of the heavens is like a dragnet let down into the sea and gathering fish of every kind. 48 When it was full, they hauled it up onto the beach, and sitting down, they collected the fine ones into containers, but the unsuitable they threw away. 49 That is how it will be in the conclusion of the system of things. The angels will go out and separate the wicked from among the righteous 50 and will cast them into the fiery furnace. There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be."

Not all the fish gathered into the net are "suitable", so the fishermen throw the unsuitable ones away. "The weeping and gnashing of teeth" is often all we hear from those who are no longer considered "suitable". They are not stayers.....we are well rid of these complaining, dead fish IMO.

At the conclusion of the system of things, it is angels who do the separating of the righteous from the wicked.
But its God's definition of "righteousness" and "wickedness" that makes the difference. We are not the judges and thankful for that.

No righteous person will perish and no wicked one will survive....of that we can be certain.

 

[savagewind]

. God will not chase after anyone. We have to accept all that he teaches of our own free will.

Psalms 146:3 Psalms 108:12 Psalms 118:8-9 Isaiah 2:22 Jeremiah 17:5

 

[Deeje]

We are all messengers but who do we represent and what is our message?

That is the most important point of any discussion regarding the Bible. Our message is from the son of God. The only "Christ" spoken about in scripture. There is nothing about a man who claimed to be Christ returned in the flesh through Ishmael who was to die again. Please show me where the Bible says that Christ was to come in the flesh and die twice....?

You represent the JWs with a message of impending destruction of civilisation as we know it.

The Bible says that the times we are living in right now are rapidly coming to their end. We are staring down the barrel of "the great day of God the Almighty". You don't have to believe it, but Jesus gave the "sign of his presence" (not his coming) to signify that the last days had begun. (Matthew 24:3-14) Wars, famine, great earthquakes, pestilence, the love of mankind in general waxing cold. This was because of the increase in lawlessness. Trust has disappeared from the world as more and more trusted institutions are exposed as corrupt from the top down.
And there was to be a global "witness" given about the coming of God's Kingdom and Jesus warning in Matthew 24:37-39.

Revelation 16:13-16.....
"And I saw three unclean inspired expressions that looked like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the wild beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 They are, in fact, expressions inspired by demons and they perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the entire inhabited earth, to gather them together to the war of the great day of God the Almighty."

15 “Look! I am coming as a thief. Happy is the one who stays awake and keeps his outer garments, so that he may not walk naked and people look upon his shamefulness.”

16 And they gathered them together to the place that is called in Hebrew Armageddon."

These "unclean expressions" originate from the "dragon" (satan the devil) the wild beast (this world's ruling authorities) and the false prophet (those who inspired the formation of the UN, the wild beast's image) Whatever form these "expressions" take, they will trigger an all out assault that will culminate in the greatest tribulation this world has ever seen.....and it will end with the war of Armageddon. The war between God and the devil....but involving all whom the devil has managed to sidetrack into false religion.

Peter said that God would expose what he sees at the time of the end. (2 Peter 3:9-13) We are beginning to understand what he meant as many once trusted institutions are exposed as completely corrupt, driven by greed.

I quote from the same biblical scripture you do.

But nothing you quote from your prophet is taken in context and it is completely misapplied. Anyone can put their own spin on the Bible......its what people do that matters, not what they talk about. What did Jesus tell us to do? And what did he tell us not to do?

The words of your prophet mean nothing to anyone but Baha'is. Who else recognizes him? How did he prove that he was the returned Christ? Jesus performed miracles....what did your prophet do?

We have no prophet but Jesus who said that he would appoint a "faithful and discreet slave" to "feed" his entire household "their food at the proper time". We all have to find that "slave" and feed on what he is serving. (Matthew 24:45) If you think you have done so, then that is your choice. I feed at a different table.

 

[Deeje]

The JWs see themselves as being the sole arbiters of biblical truth. I see the JWs as just another sect of Christianity with no more credibility that other Christian sects it vaunts itself over. So of course the JWs see themselves right and everyone else wrong.

The fact is, if we are right and everyone else is wrong, what does that mean for everyone else?
If Noah was right and everyone else was wrong, what did that mean for those to whom he preached? Jesus used this as an example of what was to happen again. (Matthew 24:37-39) You can ignore him if you wish. People are free to ignore us too.

I have a couple of teenage sons who are doing just fine at public high school and in their personal lives. I don't recall my own high school years or time at university being a den of iniquity. It depends on the company we keep.

Be grateful then.....there are those in the rest of the world where that is not the case. We are seeing bullying at High Schools with a level of evil never before experienced. Teen suicides are rampant because of the hopelessness they feel when others cut them down and tell them to top themselves. Gender confusion is putting teens under even more pressure as they question their sexuality. You are a physician....is your finger not on the pulse? If it does not occur at your son's school, does that mean its not happening anywhere else?

The research I presented provided strong evidence JWs income is relatively poor due to an inability to make use of opportunities for tertiary study.

Poor compared to what? A doctor's salary? As long as we have enough.....it is enough. (1 Timothy 6:7-10)
We don't love the world or its goal or ambitions. (1 John 2:15-17) It is enough to make a living, not a lifestyle.

I have often heard talk about how we can love people but not like them. That sounds more like an excuse for failing to genuinely love people. I have no doubt Jesus had genuine love and affection for most He came in contact with. I reject the belief He did not like people. Sounds like the joyless and pessimistic JWs projecting their own disinterest and disdain for humanity onto Christ!?

Seriously? If we had no love for mankind we would be using our free time serving our own interests instead of obeying Christ and taking the message out to an unreceptive audience. Their lives are in our hands...as Paul said..."Now if I am declaring the good news, it is no reason for me to boast, for necessity is laid upon me. Really, woe to me if I do not declare the good news!" It is our Christian obligation. Love for God and neighbor can be served in no better way that to help people enjoy what God has in store when his Kingdom rules this earth. (Revelation 21:2-4)

We would see ourselves as standing at the dock begging people not to get on the Titanic.......you guys seem to want to welcome people onboard and rearrange their deck chairs or upgrade them to a better cabin...but only after you have dispensed with the lifeboats, regarding them as unnecessary. Even after the ship is sinking, you're still telling people that everything is fine...you can patch up the ship if you all work together. But you have no volunteers.

If I want medical advice or a house built, I go to people who are both competent and qualified.

If I want advice about what the Bible says, I'll read it myself and consider the opinions of those who have taken the time to independantly research it.

Tell me just who is capable of "independent research" when the Bible is examined? There are only two forms of investigation as far as I know....those who want to prove that its true and those who want to prove that it is false....who is really "independent"?

There is no branch of science that seeks to eliminate God.

You seriously believe that?

 

[Deeje]

Many denominations and faiths would make similar claims.

And it is up to us to find the one that teaches the truth. There can only be one truth....."one Lord, one faith, one baptism". (Ephesians 4:5) That's it.

As I have said many times, Baha'i try to straddle all faiths whilst proving true to none of them. Are you Islamic....Jewish.....or Christian? These are the only "Abrahamic" religions. Since Baha'i are an offshoot of Islam, I cannot see how you can possibly use Ishmael as any part of the Biblical narrative.

He was a young man at the time of his dismissal from Abraham's household. An eviction brought on by his 'persecution' (mocking) of his younger brother Isaac. (Genesis 21:8-9) The two women, Hagar and Sarah are part of a Biblical drama in fact.
Paul wrote.....
"For it is written: “Be glad, you barren woman who does not give birth; break into joyful shouting, you woman who does not have birth pains; for the children of the desolate woman are more numerous than those of her who has the husband.” 28 Now you, brothers, are children of the promise the same as Isaac was. 29 But just as then the one born through natural descent began persecuting the one born through spirit, so also now. 30 Nevertheless, what does the scripture say? “Drive out the servant girl and her son, for the son of the servant girl will by no means be an heir with the son of the free woman.” 31 So, brothers, we are children, not of a servant girl, but of the free woman." (Galatians 4:27-31)

After almost losing his life in the desert, Ishmael became an archer and his mother took an Egyptian wife for him. As promised, he produced 12 sons and the Ishmaelites became a great nation. But instead of settling down (they built few cities), they preferred the nomadic life. Ishmael himself was “a zebra of a man,” that is, a restless wanderer who roamed the Wilderness of Paran and lived by his bow and arrows. His descendants were likewise tent-dwelling Bedouin for the most part. But an easy carefree life was not foretold for him. (Genesis 16:12) The Ishmaelites ended up as enemies of Israel.

There is no evidence of an impending apocalypse.

A thief does not give any warning....

(1 Thessalonians 5:2)

There are threats to humanity with the possibility of war involving weapons of mass destruction, global warming, pollution, an economic crisis or pandemic.

And there's that.....but no impending disaster though.....right?

As I've repeated stated, the great commission, or work Christ asked in preaching the gospel to all the nations was completed by the first half of the nineteenth century. I don't credit the JWs as having contributed to that work and I don't see the work in going door to door as contributing. I do see the rapid decline of Christianity in the West (JWs included). The proportion of the population who are JWs is declining in both of our countries despite the intensive outreach.

We do not go by numbers Adrian.....since Jesus said that "few" are on the road to life, compared to the "many" who are not, great numbers would be an indication that we were not on the right path. (Matthew 7:13-14; 1 Peter 4:17-18)

I believe the Christain dispensation has come to an end. Its easy for you to see Chistendom as a mirror image of Judaism and I agree it is. What you don't see is the JWs being a mirror image of the same Christendom that's in rapid decline.

You are entitled to think that if you wish. We see it very differently, of course. We do not mirror Christendom in any way.

 

[Dawnofhope]

And what becomes of the honest atheist in these religions? Shall we stand aside in despair at the waiting of all these kingdoms to come. Those that reject atheists live in a vacuum.

Sure i would love an upright God to teach us in the ways of everlasting life. Honestly i do not see one though!

I dont see life as a wager of belief and faith, whereas the obviousness of God stands out to all who would only seek in earnest. I fail your test of fitness because honestly i did seek quite long and hard, and it was my honesty that failed to see any real God forthcoming.

I suppose it runs well to consider an honest atheist an infidel. But what if you are all wrong, and this life is really chalk full of true unknowns, and what if this is the only life there is ever going to be? And what if some of those atheists were morally decent and compassionate, and kind, and even merciful?

What if ya had a blind eye to reality, and the honest atheist?

I always come across ideologies that run to fight the battles against the godless as infidels. And yes there are those godless ideologies that seek power and control, and conformity or else! And there are godless ideologies that seek to dominate and destroy to be rulers of earth.

But stepping outside of all ideologies when are humans going to accept other humans on the basis of what is in their hearts if and when those hearts choose the ways of goodness regardless of their beliefs and ideologies. And by goodness i mean the ways of compassion and empathy, and love for others.

And if ya had only one short life to live, how would you choose to live it?

Faith in God is not something that can forced or come about because of as an act of will. It is a precious gift and priviledge bestowed by God Himself. Whether or not we have it, we need to make each day count and do the best we can with this short life available to us. Do we live simply from day to day for ourselves or is our larger concern for humanity as a whole? It is not for one human to judge another but for each of us, regardless of our worldview to encourage each other on the path of service and doing the right thing.

 

[Dawnofhope]

That is the most important point of any discussion regarding the Bible. Our message is from the son of God. The only "Christ" spoken about in scripture. There is nothing about a man who claimed to be Christ returned in the flesh through Ishmael who was to die again. Please show me where the Bible says that Christ was to come in the flesh and die twice....?

From Ishmael shall come a great nation.

And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
Genesis 17:20

The great nation is the religion of Islam based on the Prophet Muhammad. The twelve princes are the twelve Imams who rightly guided Islam after Muhammad's death.

Imam - Wikipedia

If you check out Isaiah 44:28 amd Isaiah 45:1 we have reference to King Cyrus the annointed one of God, King Cyrus was not a Jew but a Persian and most likely the follower of another monotheistic religion Zoroastrianism. As King David prefigured the Jewish Messiah Jesus, King Cyrus prefigures the Persian Prophet Baha'u'llah.

Jesus does not return in the flesh. It is the Christ or Messiah who returns. John the Baptist was the only example of a returned prophet in the New Testament. John the Baptist was not physically Elijah but the spirit of Elijah. Similarly the Christ is a different physical person to Christ.

I doubt if I can make it any clearer. You either have eyes to see it or you don't.

The Bible says that the times we are living in right now are rapidly coming to their end. We are staring down the barrel of "the great day of God the Almighty". You don't have to believe it, but Jesus gave the "sign of his presence" (not his coming) to signify that the last days had begun. (Matthew 24:3-14) Wars, famine, great earthquakes, pestilence, the love of mankind in general waxing cold. This was because of the increase in lawlessness. Trust has disappeared from the world as more and more trusted institutions are exposed as corrupt from the top down.
And there was to be a global "witness" given about the coming of God's Kingdom and Jesus warning in Matthew 24:37-39.

There has always been wars, famine, earthquakes, pestilence and hearts that grow cold. There as always been corruption. There has always been those who have been predicting the destruction of the entire human race.

List of dates predicted for apocalyptic events - Wikipedia

The Watch Tower Society has certainly excelled in failed predictions, perhaps more than any other organisation.

Watch Tower Society unfulfilled predictions - Wikipedia

Revelation 16:13-16.....
"And I saw three unclean inspired expressions that looked like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the wild beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 They are, in fact, expressions inspired by demons and they perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the entire inhabited earth, to gather them together to the war of the great day of God the Almighty."

15 “Look! I am coming as a thief. Happy is the one who stays awake and keeps his outer garments, so that he may not walk naked and people look upon his shamefulness.”

16 And they gathered them together to the place that is called in Hebrew Armageddon."

Revelation 16:13-16 speaks of events most but not all have already come to pass.

These "unclean expressions" originate from the "dragon" (satan the devil) the wild beast (this world's ruling authorities) and the false prophet (those who inspired the formation of the UN, the wild beast's image) Whatever form these "expressions" take, they will trigger an all out assault that will culminate in the greatest tribulation this world has ever seen.....and it will end with the war of Armageddon. The war between God and the devil....but involving all whom the devil has managed to sidetrack into false religion.

The UN has nothing to do with the book of revelation.

Peter said that God would expose what he sees at the time of the end. (2 Peter 3:9-13) We are beginning to understand what he meant as many once trusted institutions are exposed as completely corrupt, driven by greed.

Based on the JWs track record I wouldn't rely on it.

Corruption and greed are certainly signs of marked moral decay. Unfortunately being disengaged with the world and waiting for the apocalypese isn't the remedy the world needs.

But nothing you quote from your prophet is taken in context and it is completely misapplied. Anyone can put their own spin on the Bible......its what people do that matters, not what they talk about. What did Jesus tell us to do? And what did he tell us not to do?

The JWs are certainly not immune when it comes to placing their own spin on the Bible and taking verses out of context and in fact doing everything you accuse the Baha'is of doing.

The words of your prophet mean nothing to anyone but Baha'is. Who else recognizes him? How did he prove that he was the returned Christ? Jesus performed miracles....what did your prophet do?

You could make the same claim about the first three centuries of Christianity.

Bahá'í prophecies - Wikipedia

Famous Miracles in the Baha’i Faith

 

[Dawnofhope]

We have no prophet but Jesus who said that he would appoint a "faithful and discreet slave" to "feed" his entire household "their food at the proper time". We all have to find that "slave" and feed on what he is serving. (Matthew 24:45) If you think you have done so, then that is your choice. I feed at a different table.

You have a revelation through Christ that was revealed nearly two thousand years ago that simply can not be applied in full to the modern age any more than the Torah could be applied during the early Christian era. The words about not pouring old wine into new wineskins seem apt.
(Mark 2:21-22).

The fact is, if we are right and everyone else is wrong, what does that mean for everyone else?
If Noah was right and everyone else was wrong, what did that mean for those to whom he preached? Jesus used this as an example of what was to happen again. (Matthew 24:37-39) You can ignore him if you wish. People are free to ignore us too.

The Jehovah Witnesses need to also ask the question, what if we are wrong and everyone else is right.

Be grateful then.....there are those in the rest of the world where that is not the case. We are seeing bullying at High Schools with a level of evil never before experienced. Teen suicides are rampant because of the hopelessness they feel when others cut them down and tell them to top themselves. Gender confusion is putting teens under even more pressure as they question their sexuality. You are a physician....is your finger not on the pulse? If it does not occur at your son's school, does that mean its not happening anywhere else?

I don't deny for a moment there are many problems afflicting our young people and as a parent I can't be complacent at all. I have worked in mental health including an adolescent service for a year as well as young people with a first episode of psychosis and a community drug and alsohol team. They are complex problems and of course there is a huge spiritual dimension to what is happening. Interesting I saw a couple of troubled teenagers who were homeschooled by their Christian families too. When it comes to helping young people I'm prepared to do what I can. How about you?

Poor compared to what? A doctor's salary? As long as we have enough.....it is enough. (1 Timothy 6:7-10)
We don't love the world or its goal or ambitions. (1 John 2:15-17) It is enough to make a living, not a lifestyle.

Part of the remedy is helping people find their place in the community and find satisfaction in doing so. This is an achieveable goal for many of our children. Discouraging education, avoiding the many opportunities available, and calling those who succeed worldly and ambitious is really negative IMHO.

Seriously? If we had no love for mankind we would be using our free time serving our own interests instead of obeying Christ and taking the message out to an unreceptive audience. Their lives are in our hands...as Paul said..."Now if I am declaring the good news, it is no reason for me to boast, for necessity is laid upon me. Really, woe to me if I do not declare the good news!" It is our Christian obligation. Love for God and neighbor can be served in no better way that to help people enjoy what God has in store when his Kingdom rules this earth. (Revelation 21:2-4)

We would see ourselves as standing at the dock begging people not to get on the Titanic.......you guys seem to want to welcome people onboard and rearrange their deck chairs or upgrade them to a better cabin...but only after you have dispensed with the lifeboats, regarding them as unnecessary. Even after the ship is sinking, you're still telling people that everything is fine...you can patch up the ship if you all work together. But you have no volunteers.

The Baha'is don't see the world as being like the Titanic at all. Instead we are working alongside others who are concerned for the world and wish to take practical steps for its betterment. Perhaps best summed up by Baha'u'llah's words:

The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.


We can well perceive how the whole human race is encompassed with great, with incalculable afflictions. We see it languishing on its bed of sickness, sore-tried and disillusioned. They that are intoxicated by self-conceit have interposed themselves between it and the Divine and infallible Physician. Witness how they have entangled all men, themselves included, in the mesh of their devices. They can neither discover the cause of the disease, nor have they any knowledge of the remedy. They have conceived the straight to be crooked, and have imagined their friend an enemy.


Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Page 213

Tell me just who is capable of "independent research" when the Bible is examined? There are only two forms of investigation as far as I know....those who want to prove that its true and those who want to prove that it is false....who is really "independent"?

Its not so black and white. There are those who just want to better understand the Bible and have an open mind.

You seriously believe that?

Richard Dawkins is not the appointed representative of the scientific community or any branch of it for that matter. He is pushing his own agenda. Of course the fundamentalists give him plenty of ammunition. However scientists are composed of peoples from all walks of life and worldviews.

 

[Dawnofhope]

As I have said many times, Baha'i try to straddle all faiths whilst proving true to none of them. Are you Islamic....Jewish.....or Christian? These are the only "Abrahamic" religions. Since Baha'i are an offshoot of Islam, I cannot see how you can possibly use Ishmael as any part of the Biblical narrative.

As I've said many times Baha'is are not Muslims, Jews or Christians. We are a fourth Abrahamic Faith. We recognise a clear succession of Manifestations of God including Moses, Christ, Muhammad and more recently the Bab and Baha'u'llah. We follow the teachings of Baha'u'llah. The Gospel of Christ is to the Baha'is what the Torah is to Christians.

He wrote to the Kings and Rulers of the world. His assessment:

O ye the elected representatives of the people in every land! Take ye counsel together, and let your concern be only for that which profiteth mankind, and bettereth the condition thereof, if ye be of them that scan heedfully. Regard the world as the human body which, though at its creation whole and perfect, hath been afflicted, through various causes, with grave disorders and maladies. Not for one day did it gain ease, nay its sickness waxed more severe, as it fell under the treatment of ignorant physicians, who gave full rein to their personal desires, and have erred grievously. And if, at one time, through the care of an able physician, a member of that body was healed, the rest remained afflicted as before. Thus informeth you the All-Knowing, the All-Wise.


We behold it, in this day, at the mercy of rulers so drunk with pride that they cannot discern clearly their own best advantage, much less recognize a Revelation so bewildering and challenging as this. And whenever any one of them hath striven to improve its condition, his motive hath been his own gain, whether confessedly so or not; and the unworthiness of this motive hath limited his power to heal or cure.


That which the Lord hath ordained as the sovereign remedy and mightiest instrument for the healing of all the world is the union of all its peoples in one universal Cause, one common Faith. This can in no wise be achieved except through the power of a skilled, an all-powerful and inspired Physician. This, verily, is the truth, and all else naught but error.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 254-255

He was a young man at the time of his dismissal from Abraham's household. An eviction brought on by his 'persecution' (mocking) of his younger brother Isaac. (Genesis 21:8-9) The two women, Hagar and Sarah are part of a Biblical drama in fact.
Paul wrote.....
"For it is written: “Be glad, you barren woman who does not give birth; break into joyful shouting, you woman who does not have birth pains; for the children of the desolate woman are more numerous than those of her who has the husband.” 28 Now you, brothers, are children of the promise the same as Isaac was. 29 But just as then the one born through natural descent began persecuting the one born through spirit, so also now. 30 Nevertheless, what does the scripture say? “Drive out the servant girl and her son, for the son of the servant girl will by no means be an heir with the son of the free woman.” 31 So, brothers, we are children, not of a servant girl, but of the free woman." (Galatians 4:27-31)

There is clear lineage, blessings and God's guidance that have come through both Isaac and Ishmael. Clearly the Bible emphasises Isaac but the elephant in the room is Islam a religion you and your JW buddies seem to know little about.

After almost losing his life in the desert, Ishmael became an archer and his mother took an Egyptian wife for him. As promised, he produced 12 sons and the Ishmaelites became a great nation. But instead of settling down (they built few cities), they preferred the nomadic life. Ishmael himself was “a zebra of a man,” that is, a restless wanderer who roamed the Wilderness of Paran and lived by his bow and arrows. His descendants were likewise tent-dwelling Bedouin for the most part. But an easy carefree life was not foretold for him. (Genesis 16:12) The Ishmaelites ended up as enemies of Israel.

Christianity has proved just as much an enemy of Israel and the Jewish people as Islam. Be fair.

A thief does not give any warning....

(1 Thessalonians 5:2)

And there's that.....but no impending disaster though.....right?

Baha'u'llah certainly came as a thief on the night.

We do not go by numbers Adrian.....since Jesus said that "few" are on the road to life, compared to the "many" who are not, great numbers would be an indication that we were not on the right path. (Mathew 7:13-14; 1 Peter 4:17-18)

One sincere faithful person in God is preferable to the multitude.

You are entitled to think that if you wish. We see it very differently, of course. We do not mirror Christendom in any way.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The Watch Tower Society has certainly excelled in failed predictions, perhaps more than any other organisation.

Watch Tower Society unfulfilled predictions - Wikipedia

Which invokes a warning for the JW;

Ezekiel 13:9 "My hand will be against the prophets who see false visions and utter lying divinations. They will not belong to the council of my people or be listed in the records of Israel, nor will they enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Sovereign LORD."

Wheras, Baha'u'llah was banished to Israel.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Which invokes a warning for the JW;

Ezekiel 13:9 "My hand will be against the prophets who see false visions and utter lying divinations. They will not belong to the council of my people or be listed in the records of Israel, nor will they enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Sovereign LORD."

Wheras, Baha'u'llah was banished to Israel.

Regards Tony

@adrian

Actually Baha'u'llah marched triumphant with his army of Valliant souls into Akka to a complete victory.

Regards Tony

 

[Shantanu]

Actually Baha'u'llah marched triumphant with his army of Valliant souls into Akka to a complete victory.:)

I know the feeling, as a Born Again Human Being.

 

[ManSinha]

And what becomes of the honest atheist in these religions? Shall we stand aside in despair at the waiting of all these kingdoms to come. Those that reject atheists live in a vacuum.

What if ya had a blind eye to reality, and the honest atheist?

I always come across ideologies that run to fight the battles against the godless as infidels. And yes there are those godless ideologies that seek power and control, and conformity or else! And there are godless ideologies that seek to dominate and destroy to be rulers of earth.

But stepping outside of all ideologies when are humans going to accept other humans on the basis of what is in their hearts if and when those hearts choose the ways of goodness regardless of their beliefs and ideologies. And by goodness i mean the ways of compassion and empathy, and love for others.

And if ya had only one short life to live, how would you choose to live it?

This is a great post BUT I also think you answered your own question - if one is an atheist but living their life according to their own moral standards and doing what good they can for others - then that person is well on their way to spiritual salvation - whether they worship god or not - and that ladies and gentlemen, is the point!

A parent may be pleased when s/he gets a thank you or a hug in return for a birthday present or an unexpectedly made dessert for their child but really they do not expect it - it is done out of love - similarly God - at least the way I understand is way beyond our worship and remembrances or not - all that is to satisfy our own inner mind - not an external entity.

 

[Deeje]

This is a great post BUT I also think you answered your own question - if one is an atheist but living their life according to their own moral standards and doing what good they can for others - then that person is well on their way to spiritual salvation - whether they worship god or not - and that ladies and gentlemen, is the point!

Is it? Is this the message that we get from our scripture? Perhaps it is the message you get from yours?

For Christians, we are under only two laws, often called the "Law of Love". When Jesus was asked what was the greatest commandment in the Law, he said...."‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 The second, like it, is this: ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets.” (Matthew 22:37-40)

These two commandments, in order of importance, do not allow "good atheists" to qualify as citizens of God's Kingdom, which we believe will rule the whole world in the not too distant future. (2 Peter 3:13) All of the laws that God gave to his people had these two as their foundation. You can't practice them in isolation from one another.

The most important command was to "love God" with your whole being....if these people have no love for God, no matter how outstanding they are as humanitarians, they are not on the road to spiritual salvation until such times as they recognize their rightful Sovereign and submit themselves to his will.

So those who believe that God requires nothing more than a show of humanitarianism are well short of the requirements according to my understanding.

 

[ManSinha]

@Deeje

We can agree to disagree on this point - this is not coming from my scriptures or religious teaching per se - it is coming from my own inner understanding of what is the way for those that choose to believe differently -

As to love - the same is said by the 10th Master - the contexts may be different - but the similarity is there for all to see

 

[Hockeycowboy]

@Deeje

We can agree to disagree on this point - this is not coming from my scriptures or religious teaching per se - it is coming from my own inner understanding of what is the way for those that choose to believe differently -

As to love - the same is said by the 10th Master - the contexts may be different - but the similarity is there for all to see

View attachment 27435

You have an interesting signature line, bordered by red. It says, "...he would realize the Lord. 9.29."

Doesn't that sort of contradict your statement? I mean, what if someone doesn't "realize the Lord"?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

We are all messengers but who do we represent and what is our message? You represent the JWs with a message of impending destruction of civilisation as we know it.



I quote from the same biblical scripture you do. The JWs see themselves as being the sole arbiters of biblical truth. I see the JWs as just another sect of Christianity with no more credibility that other Christian sects it vaunts itself over. So of course the JWs see themselves right and everyone else wrong.





I have a couple of teenage sons who are doing just fine at public high school and in their personal lives. I don't recall my own high school years or time at university being a den of iniquity. It depends on the company we keep.



The research I presented provided strong evidence JWs income is relatively poor due to an inability to make use of opportunities for tertiary study.

For Baha'is the first step in personal maturity is knowing our own self and what brings out the best and worst in us. Having succeeded in living a good life we should then choose work that is suited to our talents and capacities.

... man should know his own self and recognize that which leadeth unto loftiness or lowliness, glory or abasement, wealth or poverty. Having attained the stage of fulfilment and reached his maturity, man standeth in need of wealth, and such wealth as he acquireth through crafts or professions is commendable and praiseworthy in the estimation of men of wisdom, and especially in the eyes of servants who dedicate themselves to the education of the world and to the edification of its peoples...

Bahá'í Reference Library - Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh Revealed After the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Pages 33-44

Further work from the fullness of one's heart is seen as being the same as worship of God Himself.

“[A]ll effort and exertion put forth by man from the fullness of his heart is worship, if it is prompted by the highest motives and the will to do service to humanity.”3 are ‘Abdu’l-Bahá’s words. “This is worship,” He continues, “to serve mankind and to minister to the needs of the people.”

Further, striving to excel is integral to meaningful work and disinterested service to humanity. “You must become distinguished for loving humanity, for unity and accord, for love and justice. In brief, you must become distinguished in all the virtues of the human world—for faithfulness and sincerity, for justice and fidelity, for firmness and steadfastness, for philanthropic deeds and service to the human world, for love toward every human being, for unity and accord with all people, for removing prejudices and promoting international peace”

Work and Service | What Bahá’ís Believe

Once again, the Baha'i approach is very different from the JWs.



I have often heard talk about how we can love people but not like them. That sounds more like an excuse for failing to genuinely love people. I have no doubt Jesus had genuine love and affection for most He came in contact with. I reject the belief He did not like people. Sounds like the joyless and pessimistic JWs projecting their own disinterest and disdain for humanity onto Christ!?



If I want medical advice or a house built, I go to people who are both competent and qualified.

If I want advice about what the Bible says, I'll read it myself and consider the opinions of those who have taken the time to independantly research it.



There is no branch of science that seeks to eliminate God.

There are certainly attractive and plausible theories about the origins of life and evolution. No credence is given to how the story of creation in genesis may be literally true and how Adam might have been the first man 6,000 years ago and how Eve was created from Adam's rib.

There is no obligation to believe in evolution to study medicine. About a third of my class were Christians, a number who didn't believe in evolution.



Many denominations and faiths would make similar claims.



There is no evidence of an impending apocalypse. There are threats to humanity with the possibility of war involving weapons of mass destruction, global warming, pollution, an economic crisis or pandemic.

As I've repeated stated, the great commission, or work Christ asked in preaching the gospel to all the nations was completed by the first half of the nineteenth century. I don't credit the JWs as having contributed to that work and I don't see the work in going door to door as contributing. I do see the rapid decline of Christianity in the West (JWs included). The proportion of the population who are JWs is declining in both of our countries despite the intensive outreach.



I believe the Christain dispensation has come to an end. Its easy for you to see Chistendom as a mirror image of Judaism and I agree it is. What you don't see is the JWs being a mirror image of the same Christendom that's in rapid decline.

" Just as in the days of Noah.... And they knew nothing until the flood came and swept them all away. It will be the same at the presence of the Son of Man." -- Matthew 24:39.