Who Has the truth? Who Will Bring World Peace?

[Dawnofhope]

The Baha'i Faith has a great deal of insightful teachings in regards the relationship between science and religion.

For Baha'is we need to be educated in BOTH religion and science. Christianity doesn't teach this. The human intellect distinguishes man and his capacity for knowledge, invention and insights is what distinguishes us from the animal kingdom.

Sceince and religion are seen as being two wings of one birds, both needing to be strong and in harmony for a truly spiritual civilisation to emerge.

Religion and Science are inter-twined with each other and cannot be separated. These are the two wings with which humanity must fly. One wing is not enough. Every religion which does not concern itself with science is mere tradition…. Therefore science, education and civilization are most important necessities for the full religious life. – Abdu’l-Baha in London, p. 28-29.

Further religion and science must be balanced. If we have science without religion then materialism results. Religion without science (aka the Christian fundamentalists) then we have superstition. This principle is clearly stated in the baha'i writings and not mentioned at all in the Bible.

God has endowed man with intelligence and reason whereby he is required to determine the verity of questions and propositions. If religious beliefs and opinions are found contrary to the standards of science they are mere superstitions and imaginations; for the antithesis of knowledge is ignorance, and the child of ignorance is superstition. Unquestionably there must be agreement between true religion and science. If a question be found contrary to reason, faith and belief in it are impossible… – Abdu’l-Baha, Baha’i World Faith, p. 239.

So Baha'is don't start promoting pseudoscience and dismissing established scientific fact so we can continue to see the Bible literally. We understand when symbolism and metaphor is used.

The priests are attached to ancient superstitions and when these are not in keeping with science, the priests denounce science. When religion is upheld by science and reason we can believe with assurance and act with conviction, for this rational faculty is the greatest power in the world. Through it industries are established, the past and present are laid bare and the underlying realities are brought to light. Let us make nature our captive, break through all laws of limitation and with deep penetration bring to light that which is hidden. The power to do this is the greatest of divine benefits. Why treat with indifference such a divine spark? Why ignore a faculty so beneficial, a sun so powerful? – Abdu’l-Baha, Divine Philosophy, p.96; p.101-2.

The problem is religious leaders in both Islam and Christianity who cling tenaciously to outworn traditions of the past.

Unity of Science & Religion

Science and Religion | What Bahá’ís Believe

How about the importance of education in the Baha'i writings?

Baha'i Children see the importance of education as their parents encourage it and hold it in high esteem. Both moral education and learning through the sciences of important and if they have both then the result is light upon light.

Arts, crafts and sciences uplift the world of being, and are conducive to its exaltation. Knowledge is as wings to man’s life, and a ladder for his ascent. Its acquisition is incumbent upon everyone. The knowledge of such sciences, however, should be acquired as can profit the peoples of the earth, and not those which begin with words and end with words.
Baha'u'llah

Science and arts achievement without religion can lead to arrogance of course and it is better for a child to be well mannered and dull than to be high educated and arrogant as that child can do great harm.

Training in morals and good conduct is far more important than book learning. A child that is cleanly, agreeable, of good character, well-behaved – even though he be ignorant – is preferable to a child that is rude, unwashed, ill-natured, and yet becoming deeply versed in all the science and arts. The reason for this is that the child who conducts himself well, even though he be ignorant, is of benefit to others, while an ill-natured, ill-behaved child is corrupted and harmful to others, even though he be learned. If, however, the child be trained to be both learned and good, the result is light upon light.
Abdu’l-Bahá

So the urgent need for peoples all round the globe is education. Through education man is enable to achieve both happiness and prosperity.

The primary, the most urgent requirement is the promotion of education. It is inconceivable that any nation should achieve prosperity and success unless this paramount, this fundamental concern is carried forward. The principal reason for the decline and fall of peoples is ignorance. Today the mass of the people are uninformed even as to ordinary affairs, how much less do they grasp the core of the important problems and complex needs of the time.
Abdu’l-Bahá

The duty to educate one's children is not just a nice thing to do but a religious duty for Baha'i parents.

Were there no educator, all souls would remain savage, and were it not for the teacher, the children would be ignorant creatures. It is for this reason that, in this new cycle, education and training are recorded in the Book of God as obligatory and not voluntary. That is, it is enjoined upon the father and mother, as a duty, to strive with all effort to train the daughter and the son, to nurse them from the breast of knowledge and to rear them in the bosom of sciences and arts. Should they neglect this matter, they shall be held responsible and worthy of reproach in the presence of the stern Lord.
(Selections from the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá)

Selected Readings on Universal Education

So the Baha'i and JWs have a very different outlook when it comes to the importance of science and education.

 

[Deeje]

In regards biblical interpretation I think what you really mean is because Baha'is don't come to the same conclusions that are so self-evident to the Jehovah witnesses then we must be misinterpreting the Bible, picking and choosing scripture and taking it out of context.

Every passage of scripture Baha'is have posted with regard to Baha'u'llah have been taken out of context or grossly misinterpreted. Have I not pointed this out often enough? When I show you the other verses in scripture that prove that the Baha'i interpretation has been skewed, you just ignore it.

Adrian, if you are going to quote the Bible to Jehovah's Witnesses, then you had better know your scripture well....Bible study is all we do. We have an exhaustive library for research. This is the main education that is important to us. Many among us are tradesmen. Some have university degrees gained before becoming JW's. We have a wide cross section of educational backgrounds....none of them make us superior to one another.

The Gospel writers were outstandingly educated. The book of Matthew makes over 60 references to the Hebrew Bible.

The author had clearly mastered both the Hebrew Bible and the New Covenant of Christ.

I was referring to the 12. Matthew was a tax collector, so his education may have been a little better than the humble fishermen that Jesus chose....but none had attended the schools of higher education in Judaism according to the Jews. It was their lack of formal education that the Jews used to criticize them.

Luke was allegedly a physician and the author(s) of the Johannine works was clearly educated.

As for Luke...he was a disciple but not an apostle, and yes he is called "the beloved physician".

John and his brother James were fishermen. Again, not educated at the Rabbinical Schools. Jesus' apostles were called "uneducated G62 and untrained G2399 men" (Acts 4:13)
The two words listed there in Strongs Concordance are "agrammatos" meaning "illiterate, unlearned" and "idiōtēs"......well, need I say more?

When we say that higher education was not needed for these men, we don't mean that they could not read or write. Just like today when you call someone "uneducated" you mean that they don't have any formal education after High School. Yet they have still been educated in the basics.

The JWs continue to benefit from the fruits as science as we all do yet malign it as the design of the devil and there to take people away from the truth. Its clear now why JWs are amongst the underachievers in education.

There is only one branch of science that seeks to destroy all reference to a Creator. This is the only one with which we have issues, apart from those branches that are responsible for threatening all life on this planet. They are just a menace to society.

Its the world that values its educational achievements.....not God. We believe that he places greater emphasis on spiritual education. Not many get a better spiritual education than JW's. We do not seek accolades or degrees from the world...we would rather earn recognition with God...that is where our treasure is.

In his Sermon on the Mount, Jesus said...."Stop storing up for yourselves treasures on the earth, where moth and rust consume and where thieves break in and steal. 20 Rather, store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust consumes, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."

Serving God is a very satisfying life.....we don't need a fancy education or endless material things...we are happy with a simple life filled with spiritual aims and goals. (1 Timothy 6:6-8)

 

[sooda]

I would be a little more circumspect before rushing in to condemn. Isn't that what the Catholics did for those alleging sexual abuse by paedophile priests?

I've read a little more about disfellowshipping.

How to Treat a Disfellowshipped Person — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

Watchtower Disfellowshipping Offences - JWFacts



That's the problem though. One can appear outwardly respectable while being inwardly dispicable.



There are three sides to every story, his side, her side and what really happened. It would be as much a mistake for me to accept a story I hear from a stranger over the internet as it would be to reject it out of hand.

I'm prepared to hear @RedhorseWoman story if she wants to share it and listen with an open mind. I'm not sure you are.



There are problems with your comparison though. The Baha'is are an independant religion because we have a new Prophet, Baha'u'llah. We still have close fellowship with Christians and Muslims and would happily attend a church service or go to a Mosque. We see ourselves as having heaps in common with Christians and Muslims. We believe in the same Bible and Quran, Jesus and Muhammad, and of course the same God. The JWs don't have a new prophet but have come to believe yourselves as the only true followers of Christ. I don't believe that's scriptural but based on the teachings of your church.

While you do associate with others in your work and daily interactions, that is out of necessity. You don't seek close fellowship with peoples of other faiths unless you think you might convert them.



Once again, not the best analogy. Noah was a Prophet of God as was Jesus. To turn away from Noah and Jesus was the equivalent of turning away from God. I think what sets the JWs apart is not your devotion to Christ but your adherence to the leadership of the your church.

Noah was a mythical king in Sumer who traded in beer, grain and livestock.

Is Noah's Ark Real? | The Myth of Noah's Ark

 

[TransmutingSoul]

What is metaphorical about the whole world lying in the power of satan? It is an established Biblical fact. Its the very reason why this world is passing away....God is going to 'euthanize' it....put it out of its misery.....get rid of its current rulers and replace satan's rulership with God's Kingdom. (Daniel 2:44)

I see that evil and satan are our personal and collective choices. As an individual we can choose to be godless, which has many levels of evil or many shades of darkness. Collectively if we join in mind to propergate these various levels of godliness, then we together become the power of satan. There is no independant force of evil, it is our collective lack of good that brings darkness upon all of humaity. Thus if Baha'u'llah is as claimed, then the JW are part of this godliness, part of that prophecy, part of what JW accuse all others of.

Not easy to consider this, as every Baha'i has considered themselves and then bring oneself to account each day, as none of us are exempt.

Gods Kingdon dawned in 1844, Its been done and the New World Order, 'Gods kingdom on earth as it is in heaven', is undolding as we speak.

You wait for what has happened, plain and simple. The Baha'i do not have to modify the predictions when things do not happen (as the JW regularly do), because the future vision has been given. We know an event/s will happen, this/these event will spark the Lesser peace requirements, which have also already been given to us. The timing we do not know. It has been reported by pilgrims that it will be sudden, but we will see it comimg by interpretation of the news. A lot of events in the world, foretold by the Baha'i Writings do tend to indicate the time is fast approaching, on that we can agree.

Peace be with you and may we all find our unity.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I cannot see how Baha'u'llah fulfilled any Biblical prophesy. Sorry.

Thats quite ok, you will always be a great lover of Christ to me.

Personally I see Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah have come since Christ and I see the Bible sings their praises loud and clear.

We can only say that God doeth as He willeth and gifts faith as God so chooses. When our day is done we all get to stand and be accountable fo our choices.

Every passage of scripture Baha'is have posted with regard to Baha'u'llah have been taken out of context or grossly misinterpreted. Have I not pointed this out often enough? When I show you the other verses in scripture that prove that the Baha'i interpretation has

You may be interested to know, well if not, I can tell you that there are some powerful Muslim traditions about the end of ages and the prison city of Akka, consider these are hundreds of years old and have been fulfilled by Baha'u'llah and I made sure I did what this one said;

"..The Apostle of God - may the blessings of God and His salutations be upon Him - hath also said: "He that looketh upon the sea at eventide, and saith: 'God is Most Great!' at sunset, God will forgive his sins, though they be heaped as piles of sand. And he that counteth forty waves, while repeating: 'God is Most Great!' - exalted be He - God will forgive his sins, both past and future." well, who wouldn't

There are lots more, check this link and they are all confirmed traditions;

Akka Traditions (hadith) in the Epistle to the Son of the Wolf

So not only the Bible, Muslim and other Faith traditions and writings all talk about Baha'u'llah in a day that the date can be strongly confirmed by the Bible, but More amazingly, Baha'u'llah could quote them without ever being a student of religion.

Peace is here, we are still learning the unity aspect of a lasting peace, regards Tony

 

[RedhorseWoman]

You continue to misunderstand the Baha'i Faith. I appreciate why other religions are so perplexing and bewildering for many Jehovah Witnesses. It is because your church has such as negative perspective on other faiths yet has such a trumped up view of its own importance. I could explain it again and again but wonder how many from your congregation have the inclination or interest to properly learn about faiths other than your own. The Baha'i Faith will always be a Satan inspired religion along with every other Non-JW religion there to misled its hapless followers because that's what your church teaches.

In regards biblical interpretation I think what you really mean is because Baha'is don't come to the same conclusions that are so self-evident to the Jehovah witnesses then we must be misinterpreting the Bible, picking and choosing scripture and taking it out of context.

JWs base their knowledge of other religions on what their leaders tell them about other religions. JWs are sternly warned to avoid reading, or even accepting, literature from other groups, and this is something that I always found difficult to understand. My thinking was that it would be helpful to know what other religions believed and taught so that we could more effectively witness to them. After all, we had the truth, didn't we? How could reading "lies" from "false religion" cause us any problems?

What I discovered after leaving the JW organization, however, is that much of what we were told about other religions was incorrect. No wonder they never wanted us to research the beliefs and teachings of other religions. They preferred that we simply believe what they told us.

All the Gospel and New Testament authors were outstandingly educated. The book of Matthew makes over 60 references to the Hebrew Bible.

OT Quotations in the Gospel of Matthew

The author had clearly mastered both the Hebrew Bible and the New Covenant of Christ. Luke was allegedly a physician and the author(s) of the Johannine writers were clearly very educated.

The JWs continue to benefit from the fruits as science as we all do yet malign it as the design of the devil and there to take people away from the truth. Its clear now why JWs are amongst the underachievers in education.

Lack Of Education Leads To Lost Dreams And Low Income For Many Jehovah's Witnesses

This survey says it all, as JWs are ranked lowest with other fundamentalist Christian groups as those whose educational attainment is weakest.

Some JWs these days do opt to go to college. It doesn't seem as if the JW leaders are quite as adamant these days about the "dangers" of higher education. When I was of college age, we were strongly warned about how a college education would fill our minds with "philosophies of men" and that our spirituality and relationship with Jehovah would be in jeopardy. We were also warned about rampant immorality and drug use on college campuses and told that we would probably be lured into a hedonistic lifestyle that would, again, cause us to damage our relationship with Jehovah.

Add to all that the warnings that the "end" was so close that we would most likely not be able to complete our education, or, if we did manage to graduate, we would never have time to have a career in this world. Our best bet was to focus on the pioneer ministry. Interestingly enough, those of us who were JWs at that time are now either close to or several years into retirement.

 

[ManSinha]

JWs base their knowledge of other religions on what their leaders tell them about other religions. JWs are sternly warned to avoid reading, or even accepting, literature from other groups

And of course they have no qualms going door to door handing out pamphlets and other literature - well I do not know about others - but I am getting a feeling of some irony there

Some JWs these days do opt to go to college. It doesn't seem as if the JW leaders are quite as adamant these days about the "dangers" of higher education. When I was of college age, we were strongly warned about how a college education would fill our minds with "philosophies of men" and that our spirituality and relationship with Jehovah would be in jeopardy.
Add to all that the warnings that the "end" was so close that we would most likely not be able to complete our education, or, if we did manage to graduate, we would never have time to have a career in this world. Our best bet was to focus on the pioneer ministry. Interestingly enough, those of us who were JWs at that time are now either close to or several years into retirement.

Other than a certain William Gates - usually (not always) in the Western World - a college education is the means to get economically to a better place or keep the riches handed down by family. Stopping that would be overplaying their hand - the Council of the JW is a wise one I shall aver

 

[Dawnofhope]

JWs base their knowledge of other religions on what their leaders tell them about other religions. JWs are sternly warned to avoid reading, or even accepting, literature from other groups, and this is something that I always found difficult to understand. My thinking was that it would be helpful to know what other religions believed and taught so that we could more effectively witness to them. After all, we had the truth, didn't we? How could reading "lies" from "false religion" cause us any problems?

What I discovered after leaving the JW organization, however, is that much of what we were told about other religions was incorrect. No wonder they never wanted us to research the beliefs and teachings of other religions. They preferred that we simply believe what they told us.

I couldn't find an online JW position statement in regards the Baha'i Faith. Regardless the extremely negative perspective the JWs hold towards other faiths is already clear from what I've heard from other JWs.

Being able to hear what others have to say and be open to the positives in others beliefs, values and lives as well as critically evaluation is an essential part of my faith. Any faith that simply insists on the party line and discourages free and independant thinking will have control over its members. Add into the mix fear and suspicion of others beliefs. Well, Jesus taught the truth shall set you free and seek and ye shall find.

I went through this thread and counted 14 - 15 times you have responded to Deeje. Not one response back of course. Same deal with another ex-JW who has posted here. It seems incredible to take such an extreme approach. There is an ex-Baha'i who posts regularly on RF. He remains positive about the Baha'i faith though it isn't for him and the Baha'is in turn have a positive relationship with him.

I know one of the moderators on RF is an ex-JW.

Some JWs these days do opt to go to college. It doesn't seem as if the JW leaders are quite as adamant these days about the "dangers" of higher education. When I was of college age, we were strongly warned about how a college education would fill our minds with "philosophies of men" and that our spirituality and relationship with Jehovah would be in jeopardy. We were also warned about rampant immorality and drug use on college campuses and told that we would probably be lured into a hedonistic lifestyle that would, again, cause us to damage our relationship with Jehovah.

Add to all that the warnings that the "end" was so close that we would most likely not be able to complete our education, or, if we did manage to graduate, we would never have time to have a career in this world. Our best bet was to focus on the pioneer ministry. Interestingly enough, those of us who were JWs at that time are now either close to or several years into retirement.

The survey I posted was from Pew rsearch that is well regarded. It is relatively recent being from 2014. The numbers of JWs who have a college education is dramatically lower than other faiths. So while I have no doubt that many JWs do make their way into higher education the proportions are less than a quarter of that of other religious faiths.

The end of world as the JWs have been predicting for over a hundred years hasn't eventuated. Instead life has improved for countless peoples on the plant from the equality of men and women, less racism, less conflict and more international cooperation. The signs that humanity is slowly but certainly heading in the right directions are all there.

I do share the concern about the breakdown of family life and declining standards of morality. Its up to each of us to oppose the forces in the world that would take us away from a genuinely spiritual life.

 

[ManSinha]

IBeing able to hear what others have to say and be open to the positives in others beliefs, values and lives as well as critically evaluation is an essential part of my faith.

Glad to hear you acknowledge that - I have had a somewhat testy exchange with a member of your faith that always wants to justify her (and I am being quite particular in my choice of words) faith being the latest and therefore the best of all there is -

 

[Dawnofhope]

Glad to hear you acknowledge that - I have had a somewhat testy exchange with a member of your faith that always wants to justify her (and I am being quite particular in my choice of words) faith being the latest and therefore the best of all there is -

There are Universal Teaching in all faiths. I may succeed in applying just one or two principles to my life whereas you may apply nine or ten. Only God can judge another soul and perceive the full truth. According to Abdu'l-Baha when two people argue about religion they are both wrong.

 

[ManSinha]

Which is probably why I concluded my post with "I am done debating with you"

 

[Dawnofhope]

Every passage of scripture Baha'is have posted with regard to Baha'u'llah have been taken out of context or grossly misinterpreted. Have I not pointed this out often enough? When I show you the other verses in scripture that prove that the Baha'i interpretation has been skewed, you just ignore it.

Its really a matter of perspective. As you have an "I'm right and your wrong" religion then its important for you to prove yourself.

Adrian, if you are going to quote the Bible to Jehovah's Witnesses, then you had better know your scripture well....Bible study is all we do. We have an exhaustive library for research. This is the main education that is important to us.

I just present thoughts on the Bible from a Baha'i perspective. Its difficult to objectively assess biblical knowledge. Someone could study for years and not properly understand it. In my experience people who genuinely know the Bible don't need to exalt themselves over others and put others down.

Adrian, if you are going to quote the Bible to Jehovah's Witnesses, then you had better know your scripture well....Bible study is all we do. We have an exhaustive library for research. This is the main education that is important to us. Many among us are tradesmen. Some have university degrees gained before becoming JW's. We have a wide cross section of educational backgrounds....none of them make us superior to one another.

OTOH educational attainment is something that can be objectively measured. I agree that having degrees doesn't make a person superior and had you have read my previous post I made that very clear. Living in a complex world does require training in the knowledge and skills of diverse fields of human endeavour. Increasingly tertairy education is necessary.

I was referring to the 12. Matthew was a tax collector, so his education may have been a little better than the humble fishermen that Jesus chose....but none had attended the schools of higher education in Judaism according to the Jews. It was their lack of formal education that the Jews used to criticize them.

Are you saying its better to avoid education? Maybe some of the disciples weren't educated but their association with Christ was for their moral and intellectual education. Their ministry would be to spread the Gospels throughout the regions. This required great spiritual qualities but also excellent reasoning and communication skills. Paul of Taurus was a highly skilled orator and Teacher.

Jesus mixed with all peoples, sinners and saints, the learned and untutored.

As for Luke...he was a disciple but not an apostle, and yes he is called "the beloved physician".

John and his brother James were fishermen. Again, not educated at the Rabbinical Schools. Jesus' apostles were called "uneducated G62 and untrained G2399 men" (Acts 4:13)
The two words listed there in Strongs Concordance are "agrammatos" meaning "illiterate, unlearned" and "idiōtēs"......well, need I say more?

When we say that higher education was not needed for these men, we don't mean that they could not read or write. Just like today when you call someone "uneducated" you mean that they don't have any formal education after High School. Yet they have still been educated in the basics.

It sounds like the JW place a low value on any education that isn't about the Bible.

here is only one branch of science that seeks to destroy all reference to a Creator. This is the only one with which we have issues, apart from those branches that are responsible for threatening all life on this planet. They are just a menace to society.

I'm not sure what branch you refer to. You'll need to spell it out for me.

Its the world that values its educational achievements.....not God. We believe that he places greater emphasis on spiritual education. Not many get a better spiritual education than JW's. We do not seek accolades or degrees from the world...we would rather earn recognition with God...that is where our treasure is.

It is a matter of opinion as to the quality of spiritual education the JWs really do get. Other than JWs rhetoric and proclaiming their faith as the best are there any actual objective measures we could go by?

In his Sermon on the Mount, Jesus said...."Stop storing up for yourselves treasures on the earth, where moth and rust consume and where thieves break in and steal. 20 Rather, store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust consumes, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."

Most faiths could make exactly the same claims.

Serving God is a very satisfying life.....we don't need a fancy education or endless material things...we are happy with a simple life filled with spiritual aims and goals. (1 Timothy 6:6-8)

 

[Deeje]

Its really a matter of perspective. As you have an "I'm right and your wrong" religion then its important for you to prove yourself.

No Adrian, I don't have to prove myself at all.....I am just a messenger, so all I have to prove is the Bible's truth.
Every time you misquote scripture I will try to correct you, and help you see other scripture that proves it, because the Bible does not contradict itself. What is the point of "I'm right and you're dead"? The better way to view it is the way it really is for us.....we give up our time and resources to bring the Kingdom message to people so as to save their lives. We come with the good news, but it has a warning attached as Jesus said. (Matthew 24:37-39)

"Just as the days of Noah".....a world filled with violence, bloodshed and immorality, Jesus said we would see this again. How many people listened to Noah? The world is again filled with violence, immorality and bloodshed.....How many people are listening today?

Its difficult to objectively assess biblical knowledge. Someone could study for years and not properly understand it. In my experience people who genuinely know the Bible don't need to exalt themselves over others and put others down.

Except Jesus of course.....no one knew scripture more accurately than he did. When his Father's word was supplanted by man-made traditions, he became very verbal about it. Should we be any different. He is the model, our teacher....we are his students. (1 Peter 2:21) When someone misrepresents God's word and distorts its message, we will call them out on it.

OTOH educational attainment is something that can be objectively measured. I agree that having degrees doesn't make a person superior and had you have read my previous post I made that very clear. Living in a complex world does require training in the knowledge and skills of diverse fields of human endeavour. Increasingly tertairy education is necessary.

Who says? Among our ranks are those with very diverse educational backgrounds. These then become our teachers as they share their knowledge. We also accept trade courses and certifications through TAFE and other educational certificates online. Our education is broad.....but our spiritual education is broader because God says it is the most important. Many of us are happy being drones in the hive.....all equal, all serving our God in whatever capacity he chooses for us.

What we also try to avoid is the immorality of the drug and alcohol ridden University campuses. Not a good atmosphere for a Christian. Many are choosing to home school their children now because of the disgusting conduct of many High School students these days. Its a jungle.

Are you saying its better to avoid education? Maybe some of the disciples weren't educated but their association with Christ was for their moral and intellectual education. Their ministry would be to spread the Gospels throughout the regions. This required great spiritual qualities but also excellent reasoning and communication skills. Paul of Taurus was a highly skilled orator and Teacher.

We don't avoid education at all....what we avoid is the notion that one must be educated at a University in order to get a well paying job and feel successful as a human being. That is simply not true for us. We are happy to be able to pay our bills and live a simple life free from the love of money. "Things" don't make you happy because the best things in life aren't "things". Family is important to us and time spent with family should not be squandered in order to provide "things" that stop families from communicating with each other.

Jesus mixed with all peoples, sinners and saints, the learned and untutored.

So do we......Jesus mixed with those people in order to teach them God's ways, not because he liked the company of sinners. He admonished them to "sin no more", clean up their lives and become his followers. Those who did not want to obey the Christ never became part of his circle of spiritual brethren.

It sounds like the JW place a low value on any education that isn't about the Bible.

We place greater value on life skills and a Bible education that equips us for life in the new world to come. It also sees us through the end of this decaying system with its uncertainty and insecurity. We look to the future with confidence. Don't you? But our confidence is in God, not in educational diplomas.

I'm not sure what branch you refer to. You'll need to spell it out for me.

The one that seeks to eliminate God as the Creator of all that exists. The one that teaches that life must have sprung spontaneously somehow from some primeval soup many millions of years ago by totally "natural" processes. That simple lifeform then, for no apparent reason, morphed itself into all the lifeforms we see on earth, both past and present. There is not one iota of proof for any of that, but that is apparently no impediment to acceptance. One must "believe" in organic macro-evolution or be laughed out of the hallowed halls of academia.

It is a matter of opinion as to the quality of spiritual education the JWs really do get. Other than JWs rhetoric and proclaiming their faith as the best are there any actual objective measures we could go by?

Two things stand out for me and always have.....
1) The unity of a global brotherhood who all believe and practice one faith in every country on earth, and the love we have for one another. (John 13:34-35) The level of our spiritual education is excellent. The students in that education system will be a reflection of any human endeavor.....some are natural students and some are not. We have many resources at our disposal now to make up for any personal deficiency. Not many of us are born students or teachers.

2) The fact that in this time of the end, a global preaching work would be carried out in all nations by Jesus disciples (Matthew 24:14)....they would have one message that would be delivered personally to the doors of their neighbors. (Matthew 10: 11-15; Matthew 28:19-20) That is what Jesus said we would do with his backing, and it is clear that there are no others who undertake this commission on a global scale. The churches of Christendom are dying because they have no message of the Kingdom to give to anyone, not even to themselves.

Most faiths could make exactly the same claims.

Yes I know....its up to us to find the truth for ourselves.....the treasure is not lying on the surface, Jesus said....we have to dig for it. Most are not willing to put in the effort, so they just go along with whatever demands the least from them. Jesus however, said that the road to life was "cramped and narrow" and that "few" would even find the gate that exited the superhighway that the world was on. (Matthew 7:13-14) Its a dead end.

It was never about being right.....

 

[savagewind]

I have to admit the more I become familiar with the beliefs of the JWs the less impressed I become.

1/ As an organisation you seem to view every other organisation as under the domain of Satan whether religious or political.

I have been able to understand the Jehovah's Witnesses' slant of scriptures for pure worship and warnings about straying from what is right and true, BUT I can't fathom their trust in themselves and their immovable belief that those warning can't ever be about any of their understandings!

They are living both sides!

 

[savagewind]

JWs base their knowledge of other religions on what their leaders tell them about other religions. JWs are sternly warned to avoid reading, or even accepting, literature from other groups, and this is something that I always found difficult to understand. My thinking was that it would be helpful to know what other religions believed and taught so that we could more effectively witness to them. After all, we had the truth, didn't we? How could reading "lies" from "false religion" cause us any problems?

What I discovered after leaving the JW organization, however, is that much of what we were told about other religions was incorrect. No wonder they never wanted us to research the beliefs and teachings of other religions. They preferred that we simply believe what they told us.





Some JWs these days do opt to go to college. It doesn't seem as if the JW leaders are quite as adamant these days about the "dangers" of higher education. When I was of college age, we were strongly warned about how a college education would fill our minds with "philosophies of men" and that our spirituality and relationship with Jehovah would be in jeopardy. We were also warned about rampant immorality and drug use on college campuses and told that we would probably be lured into a hedonistic lifestyle that would, again, cause us to damage our relationship with Jehovah.

Add to all that the warnings that the "end" was so close that we would most likely not be able to complete our education, or, if we did manage to graduate, we would never have time to have a career in this world. Our best bet was to focus on the pioneer ministry. Interestingly enough, those of us who were JWs at that time are now either close to or several years into retirement.

I can vouch for this. It is what I read and heard too. @RedhorseWoman has not bent it to make any faulty impression. It was true when I was a JW. I don't know about now.

 

[savagewind]

@Deeje probably can't see this as respecting the forum she has made me dead (ignored), which of course, isn't a bad thing but, she won't see this unless SOMEONE ELSE can come to the same conclusion and share it.

Respecting this: The Whole World in the evil lies. 1 John 5:19

1 John 5:19 Greek Text Analysis

And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

The Jehovah's Witnesses call it "the evil one" as do some other Bibles.

19 We know that we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.+ The New World Translation

Might "the power of evil" simply mean that to be resting one's soul on some error that is contrary to something which is true and believing in it negates something that we need to know?

So, the wickedness that has power is something that is holding us back from enlightenment. It doesn't need to be the same for everyone. It means believing in the lies that hold us back from seeing the truth.



IMO

 

[savagewind]

Or, another way of putting it is that evil is anything that keeps a person away from the way, the truth, and the life, which I trust is not three things, but just ONE.


And, it has just occurred to me that the Jehovah's Witnesses are choosing to be kept away from it as they don't have it except through other men.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

If Jesus said that "the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one" then what part of the world is left out of his statement?

You mean the whole world except the Jehovah's Witnesses, of course.

As one who can masquerade "as an angel of light", his minions do his bidding without being aware that they are in fact the prime tools of his trade.

Once again, everyone except the Jehovah's Witnesses, right? They alone are aware of Satan. It's not a very convincing claim

Ah science.....the 'religion' of the educated masses, some branches of which are designed by the ruler of this world to eliminate the need for a Creator.

The branches of science have no interest in disproving the existence of a god. Their interest is to determine how the universe works, which they can do without invoking gods. No scientific theory has one, and no scientific theory would benefit by adding one. A curious person might wonder how that's possible if a god or gods play a fundamental role in the workings of the cosmos.

If people are faced with a "God or science" choice, what do you think they will choose?

God. If they feel forced to choose, it's because they are already under the influence of fundamentalists. Other kinds of Christians don't seem to feel the need to choose. They accept both.

His 'science' must be accepted with no proof.

Still tripping over the word proof? The stellar success of science is the evidence that its methods are sound and its conclusions useful for understanding the world. It's the sine qua non of a correct idea - it's allows one to predict outcomes. Contrariwise, the sine qua non of an incorrect idea is its inability to do that. You would probably agree that astrology is based on a wrong idea, so it is no surprise that its horoscopes are useless except as entertainment. Likewise with creationism. It's an idea that cannot be used for anything legitimate.

How is that not a belief system?

Science is a belief system. It founded in assorted principles such as rational skepticism, empiricism, falsifiability, etc, and it has generated hundred or thousands of additional ideas, such as energy is conserved and force equals the product of mass annd acceleration.

Science is a rational belief system that has repeatedly improved the human condition. That is the warranty for its validity.

How are we disengaged? By not propping up a dying system?

Nobody is asking you to address any system. It's about people, and improving the lot of those in need today here on earth.

JW's are engaged in the greatest preaching campaign the world has ever seen.

That has little value. It is not helping people any more than the Scientologists do.

No one will be able to say that God did not send his messengers with a warning and a message of hope

That's what the Muslims say to you. There is no reason why one should one believe the Jehovah's Witness' messenger over competing messengers and messages.

Even those who were not religious are seeking answers as to why mankind's rulers can never seem to get anything right.

Mankind's rulers? I don't have a ruler. But I am grateful to the men and women who came before me and created the world I was born into. I'd say that they got a lot right.

"we can work on making the world a better place if we just all work together"...when do you wake up and admit that humans are incapable of bringing peace to this earth by any means?

It's not about bringing peace. It's about making the world better in any way possible to any degree possible.

What is metaphorical about the whole world lying in the power of satan?

Satan is a metaphor for the worse side of humanity - its destructive urges. There is no reason to believe a literal demon exists.

Do you believe that Christ was resurrected? If not, where is Jesus' tomb?

Where's Jimmy Hoffa's tomb? If we can't find one, is that evidence of his resurrection?

Every passage of scripture Baha'is have posted with regard to Baha'u'llah have been taken out of context or grossly misinterpreted. Have I not pointed this out often enough?

Perhaps, but once again, you are unconvincing. Scripture is like a verbal Rorschach test. Its interpretation says more about the interpreter than what is being interpreted.

There is only one branch of science that seeks to destroy all reference to a Creator.

No branch of science seeks to destroy references to gods. And at least three branches of science contradict the Christian creation story - biology (evolution), cosmology, and geology (plate tectonics)

all I have to prove is the Bible's truth.

The Bible gives the evidence that it dies not contain truth in many areas. You have an impossible task. You are forced to ask people to accept its validity by faith, and to overlook scriptural error.

What we also try to avoid is the immorality of the drug and alcohol ridden University campuses. Not a good atmosphere for a Christian.

I think you mean the education ridden university campuses. Education is the enemy in the eyes of the elders.

The one that teaches that life must have sprung spontaneously somehow from some primeval soup many millions of years ago by totally "natural" processes.

No branch of science teaches that we must have arisen spontaneously. Biologists are investigating the abiogenesis hypothesis - the idea that life may have arisen spontaneously..

That simple lifeform then, for no apparent reason, morphed itself into all the lifeforms we see on earth, both past and present.

For no apparent reason? It was inevitable. Genetic variation is inevitable. Natural selection is inevitable. Therefore, the evolution of the species is inevitable.

There is not one iota of proof for any of that, but that is apparently no impediment to acceptance.

There is a mountain of evidence. You just never looked.

One must "believe" in organic macro-evolution or be laughed out of the hallowed halls of academia.

Creationists are just like the flat earthers. They're both too far behind to be taken seriously.

 

[Deeje]

Creationists are just like the flat earthers. They're both too far behind to be taken seriously.

If you say so.....

 

[RedhorseWoman]

I couldn't find an online JW position statement in regards the Baha'i Faith. Regardless the extremely negative perspective the JWs hold towards other faiths is already clear from what I've heard from other JWs.

I don't recall any specific position that was given concerning the Baha'i faith when I was still active. The emphasis was generally on the Catholic church and the major Protestant denominations, with Catholicism always being the one that received the most focus. Other religions, like the Baha'i faith, were simply lumped into "false religion" that worships Satan, albeit unknowingly.

Then again, we knew that we should not do any research into the beliefs of other faiths...it was a very dangerous thing to do...very dangerous.

Being able to hear what others have to say and be open to the positives in others beliefs, values and lives as well as critically evaluation is an essential part of my faith. Any faith that simply insists on the party line and discourages free and independant thinking will have control over its members. Add into the mix fear and suspicion of others beliefs. Well, Jesus taught the truth shall set you free and seek and ye shall find.

I agree with you on this. It's always wise, IMO, to be open to new thoughts and ideas. JWs, however, are taught to fear independent thinking. I can remember an article or perhaps it was a Questions From Readers blurb (can't remember which) that stated that JWs should be very thankful that the brothers in Bethel were doing all the research on religion and various other issues and presenting it to the JWs in the publications. We were supposed to be overjoyed that we didn't have to spend our time doing any research because those brothers were doing it for us.

Even then, I wondered if the Bethel brothers were considered to be so strong spiritually that they couldn't be adversely affected by researching the beliefs of other religions, or, conversely, were the Bethel brothers considered to be expendable so that they could be discarded if their research caused them to die spiritually?

I went through this thread and counted 14 - 15 times you have responded to Deeje. Not one response back of course. Same deal with another ex-JW who has posted here. It seems incredible to take such an extreme approach. There is an ex-Baha'i who posts regularly on RF. He remains positive about the Baha'i faith though it isn't for him and the Baha'is in turn have a positive relationship with him.

Yes, I even mentioned that I knew that Deeje, or any other JW here, would not respond directly to me. They consider me to be a disgusting thing and they are convinced that I must have been "thrown out" of the congregation for some egregious sin that I unrepentantly committed. JWs can't seem to wrap their heads around the fact that a good number of former JWs left the JW organization because they either disagreed with some doctrinal points or because they found that the JW organization and its leaders were morally and ethically bankrupt (my reason for leaving.)

In truth, the JW leaders warn the members about "apostates" and paint former members in the worst possible way simply because they are afraid that exposure to those of us who have, shall we say, looked behind the curtain and discovered that the Wizard of Oz isn't what he claims to be, will cause them to start examining the JW religion (as JWs always urge others to do) and will find that it is not what it purports to be. It's all about control.

The survey I posted was from Pew rsearch that is well regarded. It is relatively recent being from 2014. The numbers of JWs who have a college education is dramatically lower than other faiths. So while I have no doubt that many JWs do make their way into higher education the proportions are less than a quarter of that of other religious faiths.

I'm sure that that survey was very accurate. I based my comment on what I knew from years ago when I was of college age. Higher education is still discouraged, I'm sure (for instance, Deeje's comment about college campuses being overrun with drugs and alcohol and not a fit place for Christians) but I don't think that the discouragement is quite as vehemently presented as it used to be.

It is definite, though, that the JW leaders do not want JWs to be highly educated. Those who are educated are taught critical thinking skills and are exposed to many new ideas. That is a dangerous thing for JWs. Critical thinking is something that the JW leaders fear. They want compliant slaves who will do their bidding without questioning. In fact, they've even stated as much not too long ago:

"All of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether these appear sound from a strategic or human standpoint or not." Watchtower 2013 Nov 15 p.20

The end of world as the JWs have been predicting for over a hundred years hasn't eventuated. Instead life has improved for countless peoples on the plant from the equality of men and women, less racism, less conflict and more international cooperation. The signs that humanity is slowly but certainly heading in the right directions are all there.

I do share the concern about the breakdown of family life and declining standards of morality. Its up to each of us to oppose the forces in the world that would take us away from a genuinely spiritual life.

JWs look at life through a very dark lens. They put everything on hold and simply look forward to doing things in the "New System." If you talk to JWs about their hopes and dreams, they will almost always talk about how they want to do this or that "in the New System" and they tend to refrain from enjoying the life they currently have in order to slave for a religious publishing company, believing that that are serving God.