Who Has the truth? Who Will Bring World Peace?

[Deeje]

If the story of Adam and Eve along with the rest of Genesis was all literally true then Adam would have been the first man to have lived six thousand years ago. There's no scientific evidence to support such an idea and plenty to refute it.

Not necessarily so. The dating methods that science uses, count on the fact that the carbon decay is constant over time.
If the flood of Noah's day removed the water canopy that surrounded the earth prior to that time, as the apostle Peter says it did, (2 Peter 3:5-7) then radiation from the sun would have increased markedly since then, altering the accuracy of the dates. The radiation levels would not have been constant. Increased radiation exposure would also explain the rapid aging of mankind after the deluge. Lifespans fell from 969 years to a mere "three score and ten".

JW's do not believe that the earth or other creation is only 6,000 years old, but that we have a very ancient earth and that humankind are the last to arrive. We believe that the creative days were epochs which could have been thousands or even millions of years long. The Bible does not preclude this...but it does not support an old human race. We are the newbies here on earth.

You also have to believe that snakes originated from a sepent that once had the capacity to communicate to humans using spoken language.

Not so. The serpent in the garden was formerly a trusted angel according to scripture. He was a high ranking angel at that; a Cherub stationed in Eden in a guardianship position by God, who abused his position to achieve his ambitions.

Angels can materialize, and in the scriptures they almost always materialized in human form. What is not to say that this angel couldn't materialize in the form of a serpent? Or even to 'possess' a snake in order to carry out his plans....speaking through it. Remember that demons once asked Jesus to send them into a herd of swine?

The woman was new on the scene and the devil took advantage of her immaturity and trust.....but there was no excuse for her disobedience and especially not Adam's. He had been educated for some time by his God long before her creation.

We would have to believe knowledge could be derived from eating a fruit and there was once a time when man could talk to God directly.

I am sometimes amazed at your responses Adrian....it wasn't the fruit itself that caused the change in their circumstances....it was their willful disobedience. The tree was God's property and the fruit represented the knowledge of good and evil which was placed in God's exclusive jurisdiction. He alone was to determine what was good and what was evil in human activity....the humans chose to know it for themselves......but don't you see, humans have trouble determining which is which? "Sin" makes everything harder. (Romans 7:14-25) They stole what rightfully belonged to God and paid the price....they lost their innocence and their moral perfection, now failing to reflect the image of their Creator.
They chose to want to make those decisions for themselves and we have been paying the price ever since.

They each declared their independence from God in that one act, in effect choosing satan as their god and all that went with that choice. When God asked them what they had done, their response was telling. Each blamed someone else rather than to take responsibility for their own actions. Humans continue to do this as we see from the response of certain posters on this thread.

Rather than eliminate the rebels right then and there, God instead used the rebellion as a teaching tool for all mankind to follow, allowing them to see where their independence would take them.....and here we are.

There are many things we would need to believe to take the story literally. I don't believe the story is literal at all, along with other stories in Genesis such as the worldwide flood and Noah's ark that saved all the animals. Such beliefs are both illogical and contrary to science.

They may be "illogical or contrary to science" as man knows it now...but if you believe that God is constrained by human limitations, then think again. You are selling him short.

I believe that the Creator of the Universe can do whatever he wishes, whenever he sees fit. You don't have to believe him.....but as with the people who perished in Noah's day.....I am guessing that they wished they had.

What reason would God have to lie about those things? Jesus certainly believed in the flood or why would he use it to show us the exact situation of the end times? (Matthew 24:37-39) If it is literal now, it was most certainly literal back then too. What prevents it from being literal? Your beliefs?

If you want to believe its true, that's your choice. Unfortunately you have no evidence or effective arguments. Further many Christians reject a literal approach. Just because Christians have interpreted certain verses one way for centuries, doesn't make it true.

It doesn't make it false either. I don't need evidence other than what God himself says in his word. I don't need other "Christians" or scientists to tell me what to believe either....God's word tells me all I need to know.

It is my belief that God created all things....that he had a purpose in creating the material Universe and a reason for our existence on this tiny speck of a planet. The whole scenario is there in the Bible...we need no other prophets or scripture to enlighten us....if you believe we do, then that is your prerogative.

 

[Deeje]

Jesus died physically when He was crucified two thousand years ago. There is no physical body of Jesus going to return and how would we recognise Him anyhow if He did?

We do not believe that Christ was raised physically. Peter clearly says that Jesus was "put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit". (1 Peter 3:18) He was raised as a spirit who, like other spirits was capable of materializing. Is there some reason why you would deny the possibility of spiritual beings being able to manipulate matter in order to become visible to mortals on earth? The Bible tells of many such instances.

How long will it take quantum physicists to work it out I wonder? Science is in it infancy when we come to terms with what God knows as compared to what mere humans know. Science can never disprove the existence of the Creator, nor will it ever diminish his power or interfere with his purpose.

Let me ask you, what was the surname of Paul, Jesus or any biblical character? Of course two thousand years ago, people didn't have a surname like we have today. So Jesus was identified by saying He was the Christ or Messiah, as Paul was identified by saying he was Paul of Tarsus (locality). So when we talk about the Christ we cimply mean the return of another Messiah or Christ, not the same physical body. The clear example of a return of an Old Testament Propeht in the New Testament is John the Baptist being the return of Elijah.

Jesus was known as the son of Joseph, the Carpenter. Males always took the name of their fathers. Its how we get names like Johnson and Davidson or Peterson. Yeshua ben Yoseph would have been Jesus' name in Bible times.("ben" meaning "son")

"Christ" meant anointed one, a title which was bestowed upon him at his baptism and his anointing with holy spirit. Thereafter he was able to perform miracles as proof that God was backing him.

Jesus himself warned as part of his sign of the last days...."Look out that nobody misleads you, 5 for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many." (Matthew 24:4-5) Is it surprising that these false Christs appeared then? What is to say that Baha'ullah wasn't just one of these? (2 Corinthians 11:14-15)

 

[Dawnofhope]

Not necessarily so. The dating methods that science uses, count on the fact that the carbon decay is constant over time.
If the flood of Noah's day removed the water canopy that surrounded the earth prior to that time, as the apostle Peter says it did, (2 Peter 3:5-7) then radiation from the sun would have increased markedly since then, altering the accuracy of the dates. The radiation levels would not have been constant. Increased radiation exposure would also explain the rapid aging of mankind after the deluge. Lifespans fell from 969 years to a mere "three score and ten".

The author of Genesis didn't witness the events recorded. Every culture has their creation myth and Judaism was no different. I'm happy with a God inspired creation myth and don't have any inclination or necessity to twist science. An allegorical story, even based around actual historic characters makes perfect sense.

JW's do not believe that the earth or other creation is only 6,000 years old, but that we have a very ancient earth and that humankind are the last to arrive. We believe that the creative days were epochs which could have been thousands or even millions of years long. The Bible does not preclude this...but it does not support an old human race. We are the newbies here on earth.

It doesn't matter to me whether the JWs belief the earth is 6,000 years old or not. Humans have clearly been on this earth for much longer.

Not so. The serpent in the garden was formerly a trusted angel according to scripture. He was a high ranking angel at that; a Cherub stationed in Eden in a guardianship position by God, who abused his position to achieve his ambitions.

I don't believe in Satan.

Angels can materialize, and in the scriptures they almost always materialized in human form. What is not to say that this angel couldn't materialize in the form of a serpent? Or even to 'possess' a snake in order to carry out his plans....speaking through it. Remember that demons once asked Jesus to send them into a herd of swine?

A more likely explanation is they were allegorical stories that conveyed spiritual truths. That is the nature of parables and most likely the appropach the gopsel writers took.

The woman was new on the scene and the devil took advantage of her immaturity and trust.....but there was no excuse for her disobedience and especially not Adam's. He had been educated for some time by his God long before her creation.

Poor Eve's brain can't have been very developed after just a few days! Adam OTOH being a day or two older must certainly carry the responsibility for humanities waywardness.

I am sometimes amazed at your responses Adrian....it wasn't the fruit itself that caused the change in their circumstances....it was their willful disobedience. The tree was God's property and the fruit represented the knowledge of good and evil which was placed in God's exclusive jurisdiction. He alone was to determine what was good and what was evil in human activity....the humans chose to know it for themselves......but don't you see, humans have trouble determining which is which? "Sin" makes everything harder. (Romans 7:14-25) They stole what rightfully belonged to God and paid the price....they lost their innocence and their moral perfection, now failing to reflect the image of their Creator.
They chose to want to make those decisions for themselves and we have been paying the price ever since.

They each declared their independence from God in that one act, in effect choosing satan as their god and all that went with that choice. When God asked them what they had done, their response was telling. Each blamed someone else rather than to take responsibility for their own actions. Humans continue to do this as we see from the response of certain posters on this thread.

Rather than eliminate the rebels right then and there, God instead used the rebellion as a teaching tool for all mankind to follow, allowing them to see where their independence would take them.....and here we are.

They may be "illogical or contrary to science" as man knows it now...but if you believe that God is constrained by human limitations, then think again. You are selling him short.

If it works for you.

I believe that the Creator of the Universe can do whatever he wishes, whenever he sees fit. You don't have to believe him.....but as with the people who perished in Noah's day.....I am guessing that they wished they had.

God can provide whatever allegorical stories Hewants. He is given us the capacity both morally and intellectually to distinguish allergory from history. He has given us the capacity to recognise His propehts and follow their teachings.

I have made my choice nearly 30 years ago and am happy with it. I doubt if I could ever be satisfied with the explanations you have provided for Adam and Eve and the story of Noah. Then again. I have thee science degrees and remain firmly with my colleagues in the scientific community who have no inclination to believe such stories literally.

 

[Dawnofhope]

We do not believe that Christ was raised physically. Peter clearly says that Jesus was "put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit". (1 Peter 3:18) He was raised as a spirit who, like other spirits was capable of materializing. Is there some reason why you would deny the possibility of spiritual beings being able to manipulate matter in order to become visible to mortals on earth? The Bible tells of many such instances.

How long will it take quantum physicists to work it out I wonder? Science is in it infancy when we come to terms with what God knows as compared to what mere humans know. Science can never disprove the existence of the Creator, nor will it ever diminish his power or interfere with his purpose.

Jesus was known as the son of Joseph, the Carpenter. Males always took the name of their fathers. Its how we get names like Johnson and Davidson or Peterson. Yeshua ben Yoseph would have been Jesus' name in Bible times.("ben" meaning "son")

"Christ" meant anointed one, a title which was bestowed upon him at his baptism and his anointing with holy spirit. Thereafter he was able to perform miracles as proof that God was backing him.

Jesus himself warned as part of his sign of the last days...."Look out that nobody misleads you, 5 for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many." (Matthew 24:4-5) Is it surprising that these false Christs appeared then? What is to say that Baha'ullah wasn't just one of these? (2 Corinthians 11:14-15)

Similiarly I believe the accounts of Christ's resurrection and post-resurrection appearances are allegorical.

From anti-semitism, anti-Catholicism, anti-Islam and now telling me the founder of my faith is Satan masquerading as an Angel of light! I'm not suprised as I'm aware JWs regard everyone but themselves as under the rule of Satan.

If our discussion has descended to this level best we have a break for now. Thanks for playing.

 

[Deeje]

The author of Genesis didn't witness the events recorded.

Oh, but the author of Genesis did witness the creation event...he was the one responsible for it. (Genesis 1:1)
It was he who provided Moses with knowledge that no other human being could have known back then about the amazing details of the process.

Flood survivors and their family members born after the deluge were acquainted with the flood story and when God confused the language at Babel, they took those flood stories with them to the ends of the earth. Moses just didn't write them down till later.

I have made my choice nearly 30 years ago and am happy with it. I doubt if I could ever be satisfied with the explanations you have provided for Adam and Eve and the story of Noah. Then again. I have thee science degrees and remain firmly with my colleagues in the scientific community who have no inclination to belief such stories literally.

These days its a tough choice between God and science, where creation vs evolution is concerned, it seems as if compromise is the bridge, IMO. Your own words back to you concerning evolution...."if it works for you"...

Three science degrees eh? Who gave them to you?

Yes, I know you have made your decision, but I am still under obligation to speak the truth as I understand it...as are you. Go in peace Adrian....your choice is yours to make...it always was. Mine was made 46 years ago.....nothing will budge me either.

Our judge will set all things straight in the not too distant future I believe.....we will all stand or fall by what we have accepted as truth.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Our judge will set all things straight in the not too distant future I believe.....we will all stand or fall by what we have accepted as truth.

Or we could all live faith now and help as many people as we can It would help if we could consider that we are all part of one human race.

Regards Tony

 

[Deeje]

Similiarly I believe the accounts of Christ's resurrection and post-resurrection appearances are allegorical.

That is your choice and you have every right to hold that belief.
The Bible speaks of other resurrections as well...are they only allegorical as well? What about Lazarus? (John 11:11-14)

From anti-semitism, anti-Catholicism, anti-Islam and now telling me the founder of my faith is Satan masquerading as an Angel of light! I'm not suprised as I'm aware JWs regard everyone but themselves as under the rule of Satan.

Oh dear....is this really how you respond to what I have said? Do you only see criticism and not the words of the Bible that you say you accept? If "the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one", (1 John 5:19) then we individually have some serious decisions to make.

"The whole world" is not just a few people....and if "few" are on the road to life, (Matthew 7:13-14) then the "majority" are heading down a super highway that is a spiritual dead end. Do we just let them?

The truth is "anti" falsehood. I am not attacking people but institutions who are responsible for people's everlasting welfare. If I believe that these institutions are leading people to their deaths, as Jesus said, then what kind of Christian am I if I sit back and say nothing because I may hurt people's feelings? Jesus did not hold back from exposing false teachings. Some people were very offended by his words. He taught us to speak the truth even when it is not well received.

We have to acknowledge that the truth is the truth.....regardless of what any of us believe.

If our discussion has descended to this level best we have a break for now. Thanks for playing.

I am sorry you feel that way. But by all means, if you need to take a break....I understand.

 

[Deeje]

Or we could all live faith now and help as many people as we can It would help if we could consider that we are all part of one human race.

I agree that we are all one human race and it would be wonderful if we all agreed and helped one another.....but I also know that it's never going to happen because humans won't let it.......and according to Jesus, it isn't going to end well for the majority of humans because of the choices they make about their worship. Why would the scriptures say so if that wasn't the case?

Can everything people choose to believe be acceptable to God no matter who said it or how it contradicts all the others? How does that work?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Can everything people choose to believe be acceptable to God no matter who said it or how it contradicts all the others? How does that work?

Christ showed us how it works and left the advice. Christ told us how to determine a True Prophet and thus we have no excuses when we choose to accept the interpretation of men about scripture that have not proven to be true prophets.

This is how doctrines, that become the clouds a new prophet returns on, are formed. Clouds are vapor that prevent the sun shining in its full splendor, they are not a charriot that a person stands on as many christains expect literally.

Christ also said that it would be Christians calling out in His Name that got it wrong. To me that aspect of the Bible is very clear and correct, though it is hard for a Christain to consider. No one likes finding out thay they have misleading interpretation, especially if they feel they have it so right.

The Bible definitly says Christ will come with a New Name and that all things will made new. The Name is clearly given, as when it talks of the end of ages it talks about the 'Glory of God' or the 'Glory of the Lord'. They are the translations of Baha'u'llah, just as Christ means 'Annointed One'. Meaning they are annointed with these Names and Titles of the Holy Spirit.

Thus the passage which is as clear as day, as to where we should not look;

Matthew 7:21-23
I Never Knew You
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

That Father is Baha'u'llah, Christ the Son, returned as the Glory of God, the Father. There is a truckload of prophecy that comfirms this is so.

God doeth as he willeth and God guides us all as God so chooses, the history of religion shows that has always been Gods way.

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

That is your choice and you have every right to hold that belief.
The Bible speaks of other resurrections as well...are they only allegorical as well? What about Lazarus? (John 11:11-14)

Oh dear....is this really how you respond to what I have said? Do you only see criticism and not the words of the Bible that you say you accept? If "the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one", (1 John 5:19) then we individually have some serious decisions to make.

"The whole world" is not just a few people....and if "few" are on the road to life, (Matthew 7:13-14) then the "majority" are heading down a super highway that is a spiritual dead end. Do we just let them?

The truth is "anti" falsehood. I am not attacking people but institutions who are responsible for people's everlasting welfare. If I believe that these institutions are leading people to their deaths, as Jesus said, then what kind of Christian am I if I sit back and say nothing because I may hurt people's feelings? Jesus did not hold back from exposing false teachings. Some people were very offended by his words. He taught us to speak the truth even when it is not well received.

We have to acknowledge that the truth is the truth.....regardless of what any of us believe.

I am sorry you feel that way. But by all means, if you need to take a break....I understand.

I have to admit the more I become familiar with the beliefs of the JWs the less impressed I become.

1/ As an organisation you seem to view every other organisation as under the domain of Satan whether religious or political.

2/ Basic science seems to be discarded so your literal biblical interpretations can be accomodated.

3/ The JW beliefs about an impending apocalypse based on literal interpretation of the book of revelation are extremely implausible.

4/ The overall result is the JWs become disengaged with the actual work God requires of us to make the world a better place. Instead I hear JWs complaining about how bad the world is and an unwillingness to take positive action to make things better because of the impending apocalypse.

 

[ManSinha]

I have always been educated that JW's do not accept blood transfusions - but they accept organ transplantation
How can that be reconciled? Asking a long held question from my days at the bedside since there are those on here that can help educate me

 

[Dawnofhope]

I have always been educated that JW's do not accept blood transfusions - but they accept organ transplantation
How can that be reconciled? Asking a long held question from my days at the bedside since there are those on here that can help educate me

From their websites:

Questions From Readers — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/jehovahs-witnesses-why-no-blood-transfusions/

 

[Deeje]

I have to admit the more I become familiar with the beliefs of the JWs the less impressed I become.

Well, unfortunately, I have to say the same about the Baha'i faith.....it tries to incorporate all faiths but is actually true to none of them. Its hard to tell what you believe because your faith seems to pick and choose what scripture it will use to support its beliefs whilst ignoring the rest....the misinterpretation of what Baha'i select is mind boggling at times, showing that the Bible does not factor into your beliefs when taken in context. I cannot see how the Bible can be used in your belief system at all....but you are welcome to believe whatever you wish.

1/ As an organisation you seem to view every other organisation as under the domain of Satan whether religious or political.

If Jesus said that "the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one" then what part of the world is left out of his statement? The devil himself admitted that world rulership was "delivered" to him and that he could "give it to whomever he wished". (Luke 4:5-8) Satan has a kingdom over this earth and he uses corrupt politics, greedy commercialism and false religion to accomplish his aims. As one who can masquerade "as an angel of light", his minions do his bidding without being aware that they are in fact the prime tools of his trade. (2 Corinthians 11:14-15)

2/ Basic science seems to be discarded so your literal biblical interpretations can be accomodated.

Ah science.....the 'religion' of the educated masses, some branches of which are designed by the ruler of this world to eliminate the need for a Creator. If people are faced with a "God or science" choice, what do you think they will choose? But interestingly WHY do you think that they will choose it? Religion is not the only form of indoctrination you know.

It isn't science itself that is the problem however...after all, God created what scientists study...he is the greatest scientist in existence. But the branch of science that seeks to make God redundant, plays on people's sense of self worth and how they are perceived by others. Then there are the accolades and financial incentives with which science rewards its high achievers. One only needs to listen to the likes of Dawkins to see all of that in action....but to Intelligent Creation believers, he is just a peacock with no feathers. His 'science' must be accepted with no proof. How is that not a belief system?

None of Christ's apostles were "educated" up to the standard of the day in Judaism. Jesus purposely selected those who were not graduates of the rabbinical schools. Why? Because the education system corrupted those who were taught by it. (Acts 4:13) So entrenched were the false beliefs of the Pharisees, that by the time Jesus arrived to fulfill his mission, he did not have a good word to say about them.

3/ The JW beliefs about an impending apocalypse based on literal interpretation of the book of revelation are extremely implausible.

Implausible to whom? We are looking at the fulfillment of Revelation right in front of our eyes. Everything that is taking place right now is an escalation of what began in 1914. The first World War was the beginning of the time of the end when satan and his hordes were cast down to the earth in order to force mankind to choose their god. He has one agenda....

Revelation 12:7-12 details why things are just getting worse and worse on the world scene.

"And war broke out in heaven: Miʹcha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. 10 I heard a loud voice in heaven say:

“Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the Kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God! 11 And they conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing, and they did not love their souls even in the face of death. 12 On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time.”

This expressing of the devil's anger is apparently what Baha'is fail to see.....what kind of blindness is this? Could it be what Paul described? (2 Corinthians 4:3-4)

 

[Deeje]

4/ The overall result is the JWs become disengaged with the actual work God requires of us to make the world a better place. Instead I hear JWs complaining about how bad the world is and an unwillingness to take positive action to make things better because of the impending apocalypse.

How are we disengaged? By not propping up a dying system?

The apostle John wrote...."Do not love either the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him; 16 because everything in the world—the desire of the flesh and the desire of the eyes and the showy display of one’s means of life—does not originate with the Father, but originates with the world. 17 Furthermore, the world is passing away and so is its desire, but the one who does the will of God remains forever." (1 John 2:15-17)

So according to John, what is the "world" that "passes away" and what "remains"?

"The world" (cosmos) is the world of mankind which John says is "passing away". What do we assume this means? 'Passing away' is dying.....only those found "doing the will of God" will "remain". They stay.....everything else goes. By the time the events of the Revelation are over, God is said to be "with" mankind and the whole mess that was our world before...has "passed away"...gone forever. (Revelation 21:2-4)

JW's are engaged in the greatest preaching campaign the world has ever seen. (Matthew 24:14) No one will be able to say that God did not send his messengers with a warning and a message of hope amid all the tragedy and turmoil that the world is undergoing at present under the devil's assault. People are so tired of the hatred, immorality and violence! Even those who were not religious are seeking answers as to why mankind's rulers can never seem to get anything right. There is political turmoil.....financial crises....spiritual bankruptcy.....and a disunited world begging for relief. Yet things appear to be hunky-dory with you guys...."we can work on making the world a better place if we just all work together"...when do you wake up and admit that humans are incapable of bringing peace to this earth by any means?

According to one of your faithful....."Baha'is seek world peace through international bodies and believe peace can be attained through a representative world government.. this was a principle teaching of Baha'u'llah in the 1870's and when He was imprisoned and in exile He addressed the world leaders through Tablets urging them to set up a world parliament to reduce armaments and establish peace!"

This is exactly what the Bible predicts will come about...a "one world government" that will promise "peace and security" for all.....but it will be a false proclamation because what will be introduced is the world's first totalitarian government, that will control everything we do, no matter what nation we live in.

It appears that Baha'i are a party to the devil's last ditch effort to completely separate people from God by endorsing this arrangement. Did you know that the Bible says that they will force peace on the world by requiring strict adherence to their laws? In order to facilitate this false peace, removal of the most divisive element will be enacted (also foretold in the Revelation) ....people will be forced to abandon religion altogether. Yet the demise of religion is all God's doing. The devil's empire of false religion, pictured as a harlot 'riding' the world's rulers, will be the first to go. (Revelation 18:4) This is why we are told to remove ourselves from all connection with it.

If you knew what the Bible teaches, you would see where it is all headed. Nothing can stop God's will from being accomplished. But all are on notice in this time of the end....we all have the same choices, don't we?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

If Jesus said that "the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one" then what part of the world is left out of his statement?

One must look at this as a metephor. The world is turning away from God, His Covernant and His Laws. So the world signifies hearts that are not focused on God and Gods Advice.

Hearts that are focused on God and His Laws are already not part of this world.

If Baha'u'llah has now fulfilled prophecy, renewed the Covernant and given the Law of God for this day, then the prophecy is sound.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

..the misinterpretation of what Baha'i select is mind boggling at times, showing that the Bible does not factor into your beliefs when taken in context.

Then I can offer, taken in context, the Bible is the Message of Baha'u'llah, all the Bible and all the Prophecy was to prepare us for the Message of Baha'u'llah. That statement is aplicable to all the Holy Books of the past.

If you knew what the Bible teaches, you would see where it is all headed. Nothing can stop God's will from being accomplished. But all are on notice in this time of the end....we all have the same choices, don't we?

This passage is just as applicable to ones own stance and as you have said, we can not alter Gods Will and thus we are back to time will tell.

This sounds like me and my JW friend for the last 30 years.

Regards Tony

 

[RedhorseWoman]

I have always been educated that JW's do not accept blood transfusions - but they accept organ transplantation
How can that be reconciled? Asking a long held question from my days at the bedside since there are those on here that can help educate me

At one point in time, organ transplants were considered by the JWs to be a form of cannibalism and were prohibited. Later, the ban on organ transplants was rescinded, and the ban on blood transfusions has been massaged to the point of idiocy. Almost every fraction of blood is now considered to be a "conscience" matter, but a whole blood transfusion is still forbidden.

Also, at one point, a JW who willingly accepted a blood transfusion would have been disfellowshipped, but due to several governments ruling against excommunicating someone from a religion due to a medical decision, the WTS changed that to say that a person willfully accepting a blood transfusion has "disassociated" him or herself. Same result--shunning--but the WTS is off the legal hook because they can claim that the person "chose" to disassociate.

My personal opinion is that the Governing Body knows that the ban on blood transfusions is not Biblical, but they can't rescind it totally because they would be swamped with wrongful death suits, and the WTS is always cognizant of being legally liable and avoids suits where they might have to pay out millions in settlements. They don't really care if hundreds or thousands of JWs die because of their ridiculous rulings as long as they can avoid being sued.

I don't think that they really reconcile forbidding blood transfusions while allowing organ transplants. It's kind of like calling the blood present in meat "meat juice" or saying that a small amount is okay even though the actual Biblical prohibition is against the eating of animal blood and not the medical use of freely donated human blood. Similar to the "meat juice" explanation, JWs don't seem to recognize that organ transplants do contain whole blood...somehow a lot of them think that the organs are washed completely clear of any blood, so that makes it okay. Or, if they do recognize that whole blood is present, they revert to the "meat juice" theory and assume that a small amount doesn't count--small amount being whatever amount is present in the transplanted organ even if it is a fairly large amount.

 

[RedhorseWoman]

Well, unfortunately, I have to say the same about the Baha'i faith.....it tries to incorporate all faiths but is actually true to none of them. Its hard to tell what you believe because your faith seems to pick and choose what scripture it will use to support its beliefs whilst ignoring the rest....the misinterpretation of what Baha'i select is mind boggling at times, showing that the Bible does not factor into your beliefs when taken in context. I cannot see how the Bible can be used in your belief system at all....but you are welcome to believe whatever you wish.

Deeje, the JW organization also picks and chooses what scriptures it will use to support its beliefs while ignoring the rest. Scriptures are very frequently taken out of context and cobbled together with other out-of-context scriptures that have nothing to do with the belief they are supposed to support.

Many have found that when reading the JW-selected scriptures in context, the meaning is entirely different from what has been presented.

Granted, JWs aren't welcome to believe whatever they wish, but they do have to believe whatever the WTS presents to them through multiple changes and reversals, and, if they don't accept everything they are told, they either must keep it totally to themselves or face being disfellowshipped. For that matter, JWs are warned against even THINKING of anything contrary to what their leaders want them to believe.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Well, unfortunately, I have to say the same about the Baha'i faith.....it tries to incorporate all faiths but is actually true to none of them. Its hard to tell what you believe because your faith seems to pick and choose what scripture it will use to support its beliefs whilst ignoring the rest....the misinterpretation of what Baha'i select is mind boggling at times, showing that the Bible does not factor into your beliefs when taken in context. I cannot see how the Bible can be used in your belief system at all....but you are welcome to believe whatever you wish.

You continue to misunderstand the Baha'i Faith. I appreciate why other religions are so perplexing and bewildering for many Jehovah Witnesses. It is because your church has such as negative perspective on other faiths yet has such a trumped up view of its own importance. I could explain it again and again but wonder how many from your congregation have the inclination or interest to properly learn about faiths other than your own. The Baha'i Faith will always be a Satan inspired religion along with every other Non-JW religion there to misled its hapless followers because that's what your church teaches.

In regards biblical interpretation I think what you really mean is because Baha'is don't come to the same conclusions that are so self-evident to the Jehovah witnesses then we must be misinterpreting the Bible, picking and choosing scripture and taking it out of context.

Ah science.....the 'religion' of the educated masses, some branches of which are designed by the ruler of this world to eliminate the need for a Creator. If people are faced with a "God or science" choice, what do you think they will choose? But interestingly WHY do you think that they will choose it? Religion is not the only form of indoctrination you know.

It isn't science itself that is the problem however...after all, God created what scientists study...he is the greatest scientist in existence. But the branch of science that seeks to make God redundant, plays on people's sense of self worth and how they are perceived by others. Then there are the accolades and financial incentives with which science rewards its high achievers. One only needs to listen to the likes of Dawkins to see all of that in action....but to Intelligent Creation believers, he is just a peacock with no feathers. His 'science' must be accepted with no proof. How is that not a belief system?

None of Christ's apostles were "educated" up to the standard of the day in Judaism. Jesus purposely selected those who were not graduates of the rabbinical schools. Why? Because the education system corrupted those who were taught by it. (Acts 4:13) So entrenched were the false beliefs of the Pharisees, that by the time Jesus arrived to fulfill his mission, he did not have a good word to say about them.

All the Gospel and New Testament authors were outstandingly educated. The book of Matthew makes over 60 references to the Hebrew Bible.

OT Quotations in the Gospel of Matthew

The author had clearly mastered both the Hebrew Bible and the New Covenant of Christ. Luke was allegedly a physician and the author(s) of the Johannine writers were clearly very educated.

The JWs continue to benefit from the fruits as science as we all do yet malign it as the design of the devil and there to take people away from the truth. Its clear now why JWs are amongst the underachievers in education.

Lack Of Education Leads To Lost Dreams And Low Income For Many Jehovah's Witnesses

This survey says it all, as JWs are ranked lowest with other fundamentalist Christian groups as those whose educational attainment is weakest.

The most and least educated U.S. religious groups

 

[Deeje]

One must look at this as a metephor.

What is metaphorical about the whole world lying in the power of satan? It is an established Biblical fact. Its the very reason why this world is passing away....God is going to 'euthanize' it....put it out of its misery.....get rid of its current rulers and replace satan's rulership with God's Kingdom. (Daniel 2:44)

The world is turning away from God, His Covernant and His Laws. So the world signifies hearts that are not focused on God and Gods Advice.

Hearts that are focused on God and His Laws are already not part of this world.

I have to agree with you to a point Tony. The world at large is alienated from the Creator in just about every way.
However, when Christ was to come into the world again, it was not going to be in the flesh. He died once for all time, according to the apostle Peter....

"For Christ died once for all time for sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit." (2 Peter 3:18)

Do you believe that Christ was resurrected? If not, where is Jesus' tomb? Why can I find the ornate tomb of one "Christ" but not the other?

The next mention of Christ coming to this earth "with all his angels" was to judge mankind and to separate the "sheep" from the "goats". (Matthew 25:31-32; 46) The 'sheep' were to inherit everlasting life whilst the 'goats' were to suffer the same fate as the devil and his hordes will ultimately experience; i.e. to be thrown into "the lake of fire" symbolizing their everlasting death...."the second death" from which no one returns.

Revelation 20:12-15.....
"And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulfur, where both the wild beast and the false prophet already were. . . . And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. The dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead in it, and death and the hades gave up the dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds. 14 And death and the hades were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire. 15 Furthermore, whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire."

What do Baha'is believe about death and where the dead end up?

If Baha'u'llah has now fulfilled prophecy, renewed the Covernant and given the Law of God for this day, then the prophecy is sound.

What covenant needed renewing? The law of God has not changed with regard to human moral standards. Christ changed nothing...all he did was dispense with Israel's sacrificial laws by fulfilling them. The old covenant ended and the new covenant began with Jesus' death. The old Law code ended and was replaced with 'the Law of Love'. I cannot see how Baha'u'llah fulfilled any Biblical prophesy. Sorry.