Who Has the truth? Who Will Bring World Peace?

[ManSinha]

To difine a Christain by man made doctrine is what the Bible warns against.

Romans 12:9-21

No where is it found that Doctrine defines a Christain

That is not what you said earlier - you tried to use that quote as a back up for your statement

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That is not what you said earlier - you tried to use that quote as a back up for your statement

I see no barrier of Names. Thus to define any beleiver in God, is by the way they live. Thus that supports what Deeje has said.

I supplied an answer to your reply to demonstrate how we can connect the definition to a Christian only.

Regards Tony

 

[RedhorseWoman]

How about the Jehovah's Witnesses? Are they as prone to corruption as any other system where huge amounts of money are involved? What is the net worth of that organization?

Since the WTS does not provide public financial statements, no JW has any idea of what the organization is worth. However, just dealing with the amount of real estate they own (which includes all of the individual Kingdom Halls--individual congregations pay a fixed amount monthly in perpetuity to the headquarters, but headquarters still owns the property) the Watchtower Society is worth billions.

Here is a short clip showing their new headquarters in upstate New York:

No. I'm objecting to your characterization of a very helpful collection of people, products, and services as nothing but a greedy, corrupt enterprise that exists only to deceive and steal.

Now that I think of it, why couldn't the same be said about the Jehovah's Witnesses? It looks like a pretty big business that offers nothing of value, just deception for those willing to buy into its claims and commands.

Granted, health care is expensive and hospital stays can result in thousands of dollars in charges, even with insurance. However, JWs are instructed by their leadership to "simplify" and make do with less while they are also urged to send their "valuable things" to the Watchtower Society. The Watchtower Society has various and multiple ways to rake in the cash and JWs are never given any information as to how their donations and "valuable things" are allocated. They just blindly trust their leaders, and "oohhh" and "ahhhh" over the lavish compounds that are built...with THEIR money.

 

[RedhorseWoman]

I submit to local law willingly as part of a social contract I agreed to enter. The submission that the Bible demands is not optional. Do it or burn.

If I were a woman, I would never submit to a husband as the Bible commands (or burn). I willingly submit to my wife now, and she to me, in a cooperative effort agreed to mutually and beneficial to us both. That's not the same as biblical submission. I never agreed to those terms.

And I assume that you are expected to be submissive to your elders as well. I'm pretty sure that they have near absolute rule over your life. If they ordered you to sell your vehicle and not replace it, I suspect that you would. I just read the account of a former Jehovah's Witness whose parents were also Jehovah's Witnesses, and who both worked. The wife, who worked nights, was missing meetings because of the job and was ordered to give it up.

This happens on a regular basis. When my husband and I were trying to re-activate ourselves as JWs after being inactive for a number of years, my husband had lost his job, and the state put him into a training program for welders working at a local shipyard that built submarines. He was told in no uncertain terms that he had to quit that job because of its defense connections.

My longtime friend had a horse and enjoyed going to horse shows that normally fell on a Sunday so that she would miss some meetings. She was told that she should sell her horse because it was keeping her from meeting attendance. She didn't sell the horse, but she did give up going to horse shows for the most part.

I am told, and perhaps you can confirm, that the make-up of a typical congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses includes fewer people with advanced degrees or good incomes than say the average Catholic or Methodist congregation. These are the most vulnerable and suggestible people.

From my experience, very few JWs who were brought up in the religion would have a degree of any sort. Some who joined the religion after they had already obtained a degree would be in the congregation, but not many. Oddly enough, those who came into the religion possessing a degree or having a good profession were put on a pedestal, while a JW brought up in the religion who defied the "wise counsel" of the leaders and went to college would often be considered to be "spiritually weak."

 

[Deeje]

There is nothing in that quote about "defining a Christian"

Seriously? Thanks to @Tony Bristow-Stagg for the scriptural reference....its the one I would have chosen among others.
Romans 12:9-21.....
"Let your love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is wicked; cling to what is good. 10 In brotherly love have tender affection for one another. In showing honor to one another, take the lead. 11 Be industrious, not lazy. Be aglow with the spirit. Slave for Jehovah. 12 Rejoice in the hope. Endure under tribulation. Persevere in prayer. 13 Share with the holy ones according to their needs. Follow the course of hospitality. 14 Keep on blessing those who persecute; bless and do not curse. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice; weep with those who weep. 16 Have the same attitude toward others as toward yourselves; do not set your mind on lofty things,* but be led along with the lowly things. Do not become wise in your own eyes.

17 Return evil for evil to no one. Take into consideration what is fine from the viewpoint of all men. 18 If possible, as far as it depends on you, be peaceable with all men. 19 Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: “‘Vengeance is mine; I will repay,’ says Jehovah.” 20 But “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap fiery coals on his head.” 21 Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good." (NWT)

Seems like a pretty comprehensive description to me. So to @It Aint Necessarily So as well......A Christian is NOT one who merely wears a label and makes verbal claims.....but one who demonstrates by their lifestyle a commitment to God by faithfully following the teachings of Jesus Christ.....all of them, not just the convenient ones.

Paul's letter to Timothy is also useful in its description...

1 Timothy 1: 5-10......
"Really, the objective of this instruction is love out of a clean heart and out of a good conscience and out of faith without hypocrisy. 6 By deviating from these things, some have been turned aside to meaningless talk. 7 They want to be teachers of law, but they do not understand either the things they are saying or the things they insist on so strongly.

8 Now we know that the Law is fine if one applies it properly, 9 recognizing that law is made, not for a righteous man, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, ungodly and sinners, disloyal and profane, murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, manslayers, 10 sexually immoral people, men who practice homosexuality, kidnappers, liars, perjurers, and everything else that is in opposition to the wholesome teaching 11 according to the glorious good news of the happy God, with which I was entrusted."

You see, its not what you call yourself, but what you do (or don't do) in obedience to Christ's teachings every day of your life that makes one a true Christian.

 

[ManSinha]

I see no barrier of Names. Thus to define any beleiver in God, is by the way they live. Thus that supports what Deeje has said.

Instead of owning up your errors @Tony Bristow-Stagg I have repeatedly tried to see you obfuscate and try to justify what you said - I put two quotes by you out there plain and simple - you contradicted yourself - let us leave it at that -

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Instead of owning up your errors @Tony Bristow-Stagg I have repeatedly tried to see you obfuscate and try to justify what you said - I put two quotes by you out there plain and simple - you contradicted yourself - let us leave it at that -

You see what you see. I am happy to leave it there and can only wish you all the best and a world of positive.

Regards Tony

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

The bible supports Deeje's view. To difine a Christain by man made doctrine is what the Bible warns against.Romans 12:9-21

But the Bible isn't authoritative with an unbeliever. I also wouldn't let the Qur'an define Christian for me.

Her Bible also defines faith in a way that I find unusable, so I don't defer to that definition, either.

The Bible and Christians are interested in Christian theology, and define Christian in terms of compliance with a standard that matters to them, but not me. My definition of Christian reflects the aspects of that religion that matter to me.

If you call yourself a Christian, you are different from somebody who doesn't. You vote differently, for example, a factor that doesn't figure into @Deeje 's reckoning, but factors heavily into mine.

So to @It Aint Necessarily So as well......A Christian is NOT one who merely wears a label and makes verbal claims.....but one who demonstrates by their lifestyle a commitment to God by faithfully following the teachings of Jesus Christ.....all of them, not just the convenient ones.

I think that I've already explained that despite your demeanor of being authoritative and having the last word, your definition of Christian is for you and anybody else who chooses to use it, not for me or anybody who doesn't find your way of thinking helpful. I'll say it again : theology is not important to me in a direct sense, although I care how it affects the church and its relationship with the secular community in which it operates.

I care about people protesting Planned Parenthood because it offers legal abortion, which they object to on religious grounds, which protestors are occasionally demagogued into shooting clinic personnel trying "to protect the babies" from the monstrous baby killers. Every one of those people is a Christian to me regardless of whether they walk the walk you think that your Bible has chosen for them or not.

Christians will say another Christian isn't a Christian because they worship on Saturday instead of Sunday, or baptize by sprinkling instead of immersion, or pray to saints. But obviously, the unbeliever cannot use such definitions. Those distinctions are irrelevant outside of the religion, and can't be part of a meaningful and useful definition. They're all Christians to me because what they have in common is more important to me than what theology distinguishes them.

You see, its not what you call yourself, but what you do (or don't do) in obedience to Christ's teachings every day of your life that makes one a true Christian.

There is no such thing as a true Christian. There are only Christians and non-Christians. Think about using that argument about any other item and it is just as empty :

"It isn't a true Chrysler. It doesn't run. True Chryslers are good cars that run."

Nonsense. Chrysler makes bad cars, too, and they're all Chryslers to most potential car buyers notwithstanding the dealer trying to distance himself from his lemons.

 

[Deeje]

But the Bible isn't authoritative with an unbeliever.

The Bible is not authoritative to anyone who denies God's existence.....it doesn't make him go away however....it just makes a person one more denier in a world full of them.

I also wouldn't let the Qur'an define Christian for me

It might well be useful in defining a Muslim though, don't you think?

I think that I've already explained that despite your demeanor of being authoritative and having the last word, your definition of Christian is for you and anybody else who chooses to use it, not for me or anybody who doesn't find your way of thinking helpful. I'll say it again : theology is not important to me in a direct sense, although I care how it affects the church and its relationship with the secular community in which it operates.

I think we get the message loud and clear IANS....you have no direct interest in the kind of "theology" with which you are familiar....I don't either. I do not subscribe to church "theology", although I used to. But when I threw the church theology out, I didn't throw God out with it. Turns out, he was never in it in the first place.....

I get my beliefs only from the Bible. No one is standing over anyone with a big stick forcing them to "believe" or to "behave" in a certain way. It is a choice and you have made yours. You don't have to justify your position to me. It makes no difference, one way or the other....we are all free to make our choices based on who and what we really are....the person God sees.

I care about people protesting Planned Parenthood because it offers legal abortion, which they object to on religious grounds, which protestors are occasionally demagogued into shooting clinic personnel trying "to protect the babies" from the monstrous baby killers. Every one of those people is a Christian to me regardless of whether they walk the walk you think that your Bible has chosen for them or not.

You will never find Jehovah's Witnesses in those situations. We may not agree with abortion based on pregnancy being inconvenient or as a method of birth control, but that position is exercised on a personal level. The Bible is clear on the sanctity of human life, but we believe that each person will answer to the Creator for their actions. No murderer can be a Christian.....taking life is God's prerogative, not ours. Its one of the 10 Commandments, remember?

Christians will say another Christian isn't a Christian because they worship on Saturday instead of Sunday, or baptize by sprinkling instead of immersion, or pray to saints. But obviously, the unbeliever cannot use such definitions. Those distinctions are irrelevant outside of the religion, and can't be part of a meaningful and useful definition. They're all Christians to me because what they have in common is more important to me than what theology distinguishes them.

The Bible itself warns about counterfeit Christianity. Jesus even told us to expect to see the "weeds" growing among the "wheat"....overpowering them even. They exist....it may not be relevant to you, but it is very relevant to God, I can assure you. He cares about what is going on "inside" but has little to do with those "outside" until the judgment time, according to the Bible. (1 Corinthians 5:9-13)

Enjoy your paradise IANS..... One day we will all know the truth.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

The Bible is not authoritative to anyone who denies God's existence

Nobody has made a compelling case for any god or gods. What is denied is the claim that there is a reason to believe that a god or gods exist.

it doesn't make him go away however

You faith doesn't create a god. Nobody need make any proposed gods go away before he or she makes it appear. Where is this god?

it just makes a person one more denier in a world full of them.

Instead of one more believer in a world full of them.

[The qur'an] might well be useful in defining a Muslim though, don't you think?

Not to me. I'll do that myself, and I'll use the same standard that I do with Christian. Do you claim to be Muslim? Do I have any reason to doubt your sincerity? If not, you're a Muslim with me.

I think we get the message loud and clear IANS....you have no direct interest in the kind of "theology" with which you are familiar

Maybe you didn't get my message. I don't care about any kind of theology. It's like angelology, or Smurfology - the study of Smurfs - or the Pikachu cast - it cannot be connected to or correlated with our common reality.

I get my beliefs only from the Bible.

I get my beliefs about it only from consulting with nature. If your Bible is correct, those should be the same results.

You will never find Jehovah's Witnesses in those situations.

I was referring to Christians protesting abortion. I don't care what their denomination is.

No murderer can be a Christian

Sure they can. Just believe that Jesus is the only Way, and that murderer is saved by Jesus on demand.

One day we will all know the truth.

Not necessarily, or even likely. You and I will likely both die with neither of us knowing that you were wrong and I was correct. That's OK with me.

 

[Deeje]

Nobody has made a compelling case for any god or gods. What is denied is the claim that there is a reason to believe that a god or gods exist.

Since nothing comes from nothing, and design needs a designer, and programs need a programmer...your Mr Nobody is a very clever fellow. There is compelling reason to believe in an all powerful, Intelligent Creator. Sadly, you have just never made his acquaintance.

Nobody need make any proposed gods go away before he or she makes it appear. Where is this god?

I'm sorry you never found him.....perhaps you were looking in the wrong place?

Instead of one more believer in a world full of them.

Its true that there are many "believers" in the world, but not all of them "believe" the truth as was taught by God's messengers.They show that by the choices they make.

Maybe you didn't get my message. I don't care about any kind of theology. It's like angelology, or Smurfology - the study of Smurfs - or the Pikachu cast - it cannot be connected to or correlated with our common reality.

Our common reality could not exist without an Intelligent Creator any more than those things you mentioned had to be 'created' in someone's mind, did they not? You really believe that the universe and everything in it was just a colossal, undirected accident? That defies logic....and until science can figure out how life just popped into existence one day for no apparent reason and then morphed itself into all the lifeforms we see on this planet, scientists haven't really got a clue whether God exists or not. They just to choose to ignore the possibility. They figured that they don't need him, so they made him go away. Lets see how far they get before they start praying for help....?

I get my beliefs about it only from consulting with nature. If your Bible is correct, those should be the same results.

Where did "nature" come from? Where did the laws governing nature come from? They are seen everywhere in how "nature" is programmed to function. Are they just a lucky fluke too then? DNA is an information code in every living thing....can a complex information code just invent itself? Does it sound intelligent even to suggest such a thing? Is it really all that intelligent to imagine that it all just happened by chance...?

I was referring to Christians protesting abortion. I don't care what their denomination is.

No true Christian can kill someone for killing unborn babies. No one can protect these babies except the ones who are carrying them. The responsibility is theirs alone. The Creator gave us life and can just as easily remove those who don't appreciate what an incredible gift it is.

Sure they can. Just believe that Jesus is the only Way, and that murderer is saved by Jesus on demand.

That is not what my Bible says. Anyone who believes that is kidding themselves. Under God's law even an accidental manslayer had a penalty imposed on him. Even if a Christian, through some momentary loss of control committed a murder that was not pre-meditated, he would still rightly have the full force of the law come down on him. Even repentance would not absolve him of his crime under the law of the land.

We have had convicted murderers on death row, repent and ask God's forgiveness for their sin. It is granted but no amount of repentance means not paying for your crime. They died with hope instead of despair. How can that be a bad thing?

You have a very twisted view of Christianity IMO. No wonder you rejected it.

Not necessarily, or even likely. You and I will likely both die with neither of us knowing that you were wrong and I was correct. That's OK with me.

Won't it be interesting to find out?

 

[Trailblazer]

Enjoy your paradise IANS..... One day we will all know the truth.

I do not think we will see it in our lifetimes, but I agree that someday everyone alive on earth and in heaven will know the Truth:

“Warn and acquaint the people, O Servant, with the things We have sent down unto Thee, and let the fear of no one dismay Thee, and be Thou not of them that waver. The day is approaching when God will have exalted His Cause and magnified His testimony in the eyes of all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 248

Also, there will be no atheists in the distant future. That was promised by Isaiah and confirmed by the Bab:

Isaiah 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.

“The Day is approaching when God will render the hosts of Truth victorious, and He will purge the whole earth in such wise that within the compass of His knowledge not a single soul shall remain unless he truly believeth in God,worshippeth none other God but Him, boweth down by day and by night in His adoration, and is reckoned among such as are well assured.” Selections From the Writings of the Báb, pp. 153-154

 

[ManSinha]

Since nothing comes from nothing

Who claimed something came from nothing?

design needs a designer

Yes but to make the leap that that designer is some god out there - is exactly that - a leap

There is compelling reason to believe in an all powerful, Intelligent Creator

You believing in something "compelling" does not make it so for others based on your say so - you are providing zero evidence outside of your interpretation of some old writings

ou really believe that the universe and everything in it was just a colossal, undirected accident?

Those are your dismissive words - i have not seen anyone else use them

so they made him go away

Really? How so, pray tell? If some entity is all-powerful - some mere group of scientists can make him "go away"? That is hard to believe

Lets see how far they get before they start praying for help....?

May be they did - it could be to several different entities - short of you knowing every scientist out there - that statement has no basis
And they have gotten pretty far
Taking organs from one human who no longer has use of them due to a premature death - to improve the lives of several individuals is a scientific miracle for one
Being able to decrease surgical infections to near zero rates
Giving a new lease of life to patients with hopelessly clogged arteries

Sorry - but God did not come up with those answers - maybe he inspired and guided - I can understand that - but to say "let us see how far they get" is sticking your head in the sand - they have gotten pretty far - thank you

As some one else pointed out - the computer you are on and the internet you use - are all human made

Won't it be interesting to find out?

I admire your desire to stick to your beliefs - as you well know - you (as the rest of us) will pass away in due course of time
There is no resurrection and no judgment day - never was and extremely unlikely to ever be in the foreseeable future. If we all go due to some calamity - that is it for all of us. So called sinners and others alike.

 

[ManSinha]

I do not think we will see it in our lifetimes

You use the word "think" when in your heart of hearts you know

but I agree that someday everyone alive on earth and in heaven will know the Truth

That is a hope - and we are all entitled to that - short of that - there is zero evidence to back it up outside of some writings composed centuries ago. No one can predict the future - because the almighty lord is beyond our understanding - no matter what any prophet has claimed or written

 

[Trailblazer]

That is a hope - and we are all entitled to that - short of that - there is zero evidence to back it up outside of some writings composed centuries ago. No one can predict the future - because the almighty lord is beyond our understanding - no matter what any prophet has claimed or written

No, it cannot be proven, it is after all a belief... We will just have to wait and see.

 

[Trailblazer]

Nobody has made a compelling case for any god or gods. What is denied is the claim that there is a reason to believe that a god or gods exist.

Nobody can “make a case” for God, because nobody can prove to someone else that God exists... That is an individual journey we embark upon alone, but we can be assisted by others, and guided by God, along the path. God will guide the True Seeker who makes an effort.

“Whoso maketh efforts for Us,” he shall enjoy the blessings conferred by the words: “In Our Ways shall We assuredly guide him.”” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 266-267​

You faith doesn't create a god. Nobody need make any proposed gods go away before he or she makes it appear. Where is this god?

No, of course no religion creates God. Logically speaking, God either exists or not. We can come to believe and even know that God exists, but we can never prove it as a fact.

Nobody knows where God resides. God is and has always been immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived. The Essence of God is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men and can never be known except through Messengers of God, but even the Prophets and Messengers have never beheld God.

“Ten thousand Prophets, each a Moses, are thunderstruck upon the Sinai of their search at His forbidding voice, “Thou shalt never behold Me!”; whilst a myriad Messengers, each as great as Jesus, stand dismayed upon their heavenly thrones by the interdiction, “Mine Essence thou shalt never apprehend!” From time immemorial He hath been veiled in the ineffable sanctity of His exalted Self, and will everlastingly continue to be wrapt in the impenetrable mystery of His unknowable Essence. Every attempt to attain to an understanding of His inaccessible Reality hath ended in complete bewilderment, and every effort to approach His exalted Self and envisage His Essence hath resulted in hopelessness and failure.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 62-63​

God is a Mystery. All we can know about God are some Attributes of God, but God’s Essence is far, far above His Attributes.

Deeje said: No murderer can be a Christian

IIANS said: Sure they can. Just believe that Jesus is the only Way, and that murderer is saved by Jesus on demand.

I do not consider the theology of “saved and forgiven” to be in accordance with justice, and that is “one reason” I could never be a Christian. Rather, I believe weare all accountable for our actions. There is no free ride.

Deeje said: One day we will all know the truth.

IANS said: Not necessarily, or even likely. You and I will likely both die with neither of us knowing that you were wrong and I was correct. That's OK with me.

See what I just posted to Deeje.

That said, if you do not find out the Truth about God in this life, I think you will find it after you die. I do not think all atheists will be in the same boat in the afterlife; I think it will depend upon their attitude, their sincerity, humility, and how they lived their lives. From what I know of you, I tend to think you will fare well. Of course, since I am not God, I do not know anyone’s eternal destination, not even my own.

I really like the atheists on this forum. I left this forum for a few months and went back to another forum I used to post on that is predominantly atheists, and they are a very different group of people. Not all believers are alike, nor are all atheists. Some atheists are really arrogant and some rank on the god they don’t believe in, it is actually quite awful. Of course there are also many arrogant believers but at least they do not rank on God. Those atheists think it is just okay to rank on god since they do not believe god exists, but they are so arrogant that it never occurred to them what will happen if God exists.

I care about those people, which is one reason I left here to go back there. However, those atheists have no interest in knowing if God exists; after all these years, why haven’t I figured that out? I am not saying they should have an interest but why do they resent me because I do? The other reason I went back there is because I thought I had friends there, but when push comes to shove I realize they are not my friends because they allow beliefs to get in the way of friendships.

I was probably meant to leave because every time I go there it always ends up the same way. Everyone posts to me, I post back, and then I get in trouble for posting back and talking about God or my beliefs. The atheist forum owner who rules with an iron hand cannot tolerate me talking about my beliefs, even though it is supposed to be a religious forum, so I am finally out of there. Christians can post about their beliefs to their heart’s content, but not Baha’is. That is religious discrimination and it is unjust. I will not post on an unjust forum.

I plan to post a thread about the atheists who cannot tolerate believers on the weekend. Stay tuned.

 

[ManSinha]

Some atheists are really arrogant and some rank on the god they don’t believe in, it is actually quite awful.

That makes very little sense

If you do not believe something exists why waste one's time criticizing it? Zero divided by anything is still zero

 

[Trailblazer]

That makes very little sense

If you do not believe something exists why waste one's time criticizing it? Zero divided by anything is still zero

That is true, it makes no sense. Not all atheists say things that make sense.
This atheist is just trying to make a god in his own image.... His stance is this -- if a god existed it would be less than omnipotent because it does not DO what I think it should be doing. It is rather comical to listen to him. The actual fact of the matter that if God is omnipotent God would never do what we want Him to do unless it is what God wants to do.

 

[ManSinha]

This atheist is just trying to make a god in his own image

Ah! it is not only them - I have seen many individuals in life and on here try the same thing - e.g. "he wants only himself worshipped and no other"; "he will punish those who are intimate with the same gender" "he will wipe out his enemies on the day of judgment"

These are all ascribing human traits to the Lord

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

There is compelling reason to believe in an all powerful, Intelligent Creator.

Not to me, or I would believe that.

I'm sorry you never found him.....perhaps you were looking in the wrong place?

Or perhaps there is no god, or no god that wants to be found. We are told that the god of the Christian Bible is very interested in mankind knowing that it exists, and loving, worshiping, and obeying it. If such a god existed, it would have been found. It would be as apparent as the sun, and thus its existence would be equally common knowledge.

Its true that there are many "believers" in the world, but not all of them "believe" the truth as was taught by God's messengers.

You keep calling your faith-based beliefs "the truth." Faith is not a path to truth, as your comment indicates. Those other believers, whose beliefs often contradict yours, also think that their faith-based guesses rise to the status of truth, and obviously, at least one of those contradictory opinions is incorrect.

If you want truth, you have to examine and describe nature. As I've already pointed out to you, by faith, Aristotle believed that heavier bodies fall faster. One could also believe the opposite by faith. Obviously, only one of these claims can be true, but they are equally valid (or invalid) beliefs if their only support is faith, or the will to believe despite insufficient supporting evidence.

When experiment was added to the mix centuries later, it was shown that heavier objects fall at the same rate as lighter objects. No longer were both opinions equal. Nature was the referee.

That's what truth is - the quality that facts possess, facts being linguistic strings (sentences, paragraphs) that accurately map a portion of reality, the factual status being easily confirmed by repeating the experiment. That's truth. Religious beliefs cannot be tested in this way, and therefore do not rise to the level of truth.

You envision a paradise on earth. Others tell me they're going to heaven. And they all claim that their faith-based belief is the truth. But as I've demonstrated, faith cannot be a path to truth, since false ideas can be believed to be true on faith.

it was demonstrated that only one of these two ideas was correct. One is still free to believe either by faith, but the reason and evidence based thinker can only believe what is demonstrated by consulting nature for answers about what is a correct belief and what is not.

Our common reality could not exist without an Intelligent Creator

That's another faith-based belief, one I don't share.

Neither you nor anybody else has demonstrated that the properties of nature are not sufficient for it to organize itself into what we find without the help of an intelligent designer, an argument that you've already been shown includes an incredulity error (you just can't see how it could happen without a god, so therefore it didn't - faulty logic), a non sequitur (your conclusion doesn't follow from what preceded it), and a special pleading fallacy a cell is too complicated to exist without an intelligent designer, but that intelligent designer gets a pass when asked how it, presumably more complex than a cell, could exist undesigned).

Until you can demonstrate the impossibility of a godless universe, it remains a possibility. All that you have demonstrated is that you are willing to believe by faith, and that when shown your logical errors, you have no interest in correcting them or even discussing them.

until science can figure out how life just popped into existence one day for no apparent reason and then morphed itself into all the lifeforms we see on this planet, scientists haven't really got a clue whether God exists or not.

Science is in the business of discovering how nature works, not determining if it contains any gods. If gods are needed to account for nature, then they will be posited at that time by scientists.

But so far, we have a pretty good collection of scientific theories that accurately describe and predict nature at multiple scales, none of which contain a god or gods, and none of which would benefit in terms of explanatory or predictive power by throwing one in.

Science is not expecting to find that life popped into existence one day. That's a religious belief.

Nor is it likely that life forms exist for no reason. It's most likely inevitable that life will self-organize given the proper conditions due to the laws of chemistry and thermodynamics.

Incidentally, nobody knows if a god or gods exist, notwithstanding claims of certitude one way or the other.

scientists haven't really got a clue whether God exists or not. They just to choose to ignore the possibility.

The scientists researching intelligent design don't choose to ignore the possibility of a god, but it hasn't helped them any. They assume a god exists and are in search of it. So far, they've found nothing to support their faith.

How much more money do you think should be thrown at that effort before recognizing that it is as sterile as astrology research.

If you think that mainstream scientists are not doing their job well, perhaps your denomination could spend some of its billions and show the world the proper way to do science to find its god rather than complaining about how others do science. Show the world that the Jehovah's Witnesses are the ones who really understand science and how to use it to find God.

Where did "nature" come from? Where did the laws governing nature come from?

We don't know. My preferred hypothesis is that our universe is the product of a multiverse that creates uncounted universes of every type possible, the reason being that it is the more parsimonious of the two hypothesis that can address the fine tuning argument, the other being a god hypothesis. The multiverse can generate a universe stable enough for matter, life, and mind to arise in it without invoking a conscious agent.

You've dropped that hypothesis from your list of candidate explanations for the universe based on nothing more than your will to believe a different hypothesis

can a complex information code just invent itself? Does it sound intelligent even to suggest such a thing?

Intelligent people schooled in the sciences and critical thinking understand that that possibility has never been excluded, and therefore remains a possibility. There is no known reason why chemistry and thermodynamics were not up to the task of creating and connecting nucleotides. Abiogenesis research shows that they are.

Is it really all that intelligent to imagine that it all just happened by chance...?

It's unintelligent to be incapable of conceiving that possibility, and defective logic to rule it out without disproving the possibility.

No true Christian can kill someone for killing unborn babies.

Some Christians kill.

Nobody can “make a case” for God, because nobody can prove to someone else that God exists.

Agreed. Why do you suppose that is? Why is a god who we are told wants us to know him so hard to find?

I do not consider the theology of “saved and forgiven” to be in accordance with justice, and that is “one reason” I could never be a Christian. Rather, I believe we are all accountable for our actions. There is no free ride.

You might find this quote from one of the hosts of The Atheist Experience interesting:

"Let's say somebody goes around and rapes and murders somebody, and after they're done, they get saved. What's the punishment for them? This is the problem with Christian religion. It establishes unrealistic and irrational and immoral criteria by which to live. And then it creates a loophole so that you don't ever have to be responsible for those actions. Christianity is not a moral system. It is an immoral system. Because it specifically says that there aren't necessarily consequences that you have to pay because of a loophole. And what is the loophole? It has nothing to do with how good you are or how morally you act. It has to do with whether you are willing to be a sycophant to an idea. And if you are, then there is an exception by which you no longer have to suffer a penalty for this. The idea that secular morality offers no guarantee that people will ever pay for their crimes and their atrocities is not an argument against secular morality because that is a tenet of Christianity. The idea that the Christian god is just is directly contradicted by the idea that the Christian god is merciful. Perfect justice and any mercy are necessary directly in contradiction, because mercy is a suspension of justice. Do not pretend that your religion is moral and just." - Matt Dillahunty​

I do not think all atheists will be in the same boat in the afterlife; I think it will depend upon their attitude, their sincerity, humility, and how they lived their lives. From what I know of you, I tend to think you will fare well.

Thank you for the kind words.