Who Has the truth? Who Will Bring World Peace?

[Dawnofhope]

Isaiah wasn't much of a prophet, was he?

Hezekiah was born hundreds of years before Isaiah was born.. so it wouldn't be prophecy at all... and it misses the mark with Jesus.


Hezekiah reigned at a time when the Assyrian empire was consolidating its control of Palestine and Syria. His father had placed Judah under Assyrian suzerainty in 735 bc. Hezekiah may have taken part in a rebellion against King Sargon II of Assyria (reigned 721–705 bc), which the Assyrians apparently crushed in the year 710. At the ….

Hezekiah | king of Judah

From an historic/archaelogy perspective its hard to be clear about anything before the Babylonian exile.

 

[2ndpillar]

Jesus didn't lie. You misinterpret what he said. The "generation" that Jesus spoke about are the ones who will rule with him in heaven. All of the first Christians were of that group, taken into the new covenant....but he also foretold that an apostasy would take place. "Weeds" of false Christianity would be sown in the world by the devil, "while men were sleeping", in order to take worship away from the true God once again. The ones who were holding back that apostasy were the apostles. Once they had passed away, (sleeping in death) the apostasy would gain momentum until the counterfeit was the only "Christianity" in existence. Christendom was born and took over to cultivate more weeds like themselves.

Yeshua was not speaking to the non existent "Christians" at that time. They would be a product of the later tare seed, planted by the Pharisee of Pharisees, the son of the "enemy". Yeshua commented about the "falling away" which was affiliated with strike down the shepherd "that sheep may be scattered" (Matthew 26:31). It was Paul who talked about he apostacy, as he was the lead tare/weed. The tares were always the fake wheat, but a tare plant can't produce good fruit, although it looks like a wheat plant. And apparently one of Yeshua's disciples "remains" (John 21:22).

 

[savagewind]

Like Jesus, they will be both rulers and priests.

Will be? Are your governing members rushing ahead of "will be"? They* are already acting as rulers and priests. That is a fact! They tell you what to believe. They tell you what to do. When someone strays from their rule, they evict him and for him to get back in the brothers must act as priests in forgiving. It's a fact.

*they even seem to have given such authority to many others [all men]
1 Kings 13:33 Even after this, Jeroboam did not change his evil ways, but once more appointed priests for the high places from all sorts of people. Anyone who wanted to become a priest he consecrated for the high places.

 

[savagewind]

Do you even know these people or more importantly, their mental status?

As a physician, should you not take their words with a grain of salt until you can verify their story?

Can you tell us how you have verified that your teachers are who they say they are?

Do you know if their stories are even true, or grossly exaggerated

What stories? Are you calling having a difference of opinion "stories"? Why?

congregation members because they have nowhere else to go.

We have HERE to go!

That is what causes the angst and the bitterness.

Is that not judging and knowing our hearts? Isn't it written that Jehovah alone knows me?

once you learn the truth, you can't "unlearn" it.

But, have you verified them yet? I realize that you have done your Bible research and so you see the truth ion what they teach about it, but how do you know scripture hasn't been tampered with like John 1:1 was tampered with according to you?

They have burned their bridges

And, now they need a priest but are your men sometimes priests and the same sometimes not priests? Think about the mental status of that!

and the world that God has condemned is their only refuge. God has condemned what God loves.

Really? John 3:16 Have you verified yet that the second part of that one wasn't added by some over-zealous non-priest? "whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life."

They end up as pathetic whiners, soliciting sympathy because of those big bad JW's........good grief.
In all my years as a JW I have not come across these monsters. But I don't expect my brothers to be any more perfect than I am....any more perfect than Jesus' own apostles.

But, if you're believing and teaching lies doesn't that make you monsters? 2 Thessalonians 2:11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie.

Isn't this why a judge needs to hear all the evidence before making a judgment? As we judge, so we will be judged. Isn't that how its supposed to work? There are none more malicious than "ex"s. The line between love and hate can be very thin.

No! The line between what is real and unreal can be very thin.

 

[savagewind]

The difference between love and hate is HUGE!

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

The other reference is an apostate site which has what you would expect from our opposers.

The critics of the Jehovah's Witnesses are relatively uniform in their criticism and objections, which gives those criticisms credence. One hears and reads about an excessive levels of control over personal lives, some issue regarding the mishandling of pedophilia, and a habit of shunning former members.

Why do you suppose that the Jehovah's Witnesses have so many detractors? It is one of the few Christian denominations routinely criticized here on Religious Forums - perhaps the only one.

We have nothing in common with those who love the world.

And those that love the world have little in common with those that have given up on it.

Maybe part of the public relations problems that the Jehovah's Witnesses have is due to this taking pride in being separate from the rest of the world, which sends a message that might not be intended - a sense of superiority, a sense that the rest of us are not good enough for the Jehovah's Witnesses to mix with.

I asked you a question a few days ago on this thread and didn't get an answer. I asked you if the Jehovah's Witnesses, who have a distinctive and characteristic appearance - groups of two or more adults, often with a child, dressed like the 19th century - when evangelizing, don't seem to be visible anywhere else in our community. My wife and I are involved with a few local clubs and charities, and have an active life in an expat community of retirees that takes us to several fund raisers a year. We never see the Jehovah's Witnesses as we have cone to expect them to appear at any of these functions, which is consistent with the denomination's view of the external world as being something to be avoided.

But then it occurred to me that I also never see these people in the market, in restaurants, at gas station, or any of the other public places people go. Do they dress differently for such activities so that they are not recognizable as Jehovah's Witnesses, or are they able to live their lives without the products and services of these public businesses?

The prophesy in Isaiah is about Jesus, not Baha'u'llah.

Actually, it's about Emmanuel.

Man has had many thousands of years to get his act together, but he is no better at ruling himself now than he ever was.....he is hopeless.

And so you have been indoctrinated to believe. Those of us outside of that bubble understand that much progress in the improvement of the human condition has occurred over those centuries. Monarchies have been largely replaced by democracies. Subject have become citizens with guaranteed personal freedoms.

We have more leisure than ever, and more discretionary income with the rise of the middle class, so we take vacations now. Food production is more efficient. Religion is an option now rather than a law, and has largely been removed from government.

We have machines to do much of the tedious labor. We are much less likely to die in war, or be made slaves. More of our children grow up to become adults, and more of them are living to be 80 years old or more and still living full and functional lives. Literacy and education are up, including access to universities.

Plagues like malaria and blinding parasitic diseases are less of a menace than before, not to mention how rare conditions like leprosy, smallpox, and polio have become in many parts of the world. We have running water and public sanitation. We have effective pain medication to ease severe suffering, and we have modern anesthesia and surgery so that we don't have to die from a ruptured appendix, or can get a new knee or hip if needed.

We can travel around the world in hours, and communicate with others anywhere real-time. Look at what you and I are now doing, from opposite sides of the world. It makes my life better, and I would hope yours as well.

None of this figures into your assessment of man's past and present. All you see is failure and unhappiness. To you, nothing has improved.

You've been sold a bill of goods that has diminished your life. You should be able to take pride in man's accomplishments, and recognize that he alone make make our world better or worse. The arc of history has been very encouraging that progress may continue as it has for an indefinite period.

But you cannot share in that. Where some posting here are optimistic for mankind, rooting for if not celebrating human potential. You said earlier that you bring a message of hope. But what I see is the opposite - a message of failure and dropping out. The hope you offer is for the earlier hopelessness that you also offer. I'm not buying into either.

He has tried all manner of governments and all have failed.

I'm pretty satisfied. I need no more from government than what I currently receive.

You might be aware of a prevalent American meme about the government being an enemy. After decades of being told things such as that the nine scariest words are “I'm from the government, and I'm here to help” or that government should be shrunk "to the size where I can drag it into the bathroom and drown it in the bathtub," many have been trained to view government as a bloated, inefficient, ham-handed bull in a china shop incapable of doing anything well.

But the American people recently got a taste of what their government actually does to improve their lives and how valuable and important it is when it shut down for three weeks disrupting thousands of lives.

 

[RedhorseWoman]

Do you even know these people or more importantly, their mental status? As a physician, should you not take their words with a grain of salt until you can verify their story? Do you know if their stories are even true, or grossly exaggerated to justify their defection? The net is awash with those who have turned on their former congregation members because they have nowhere else to go. That is what causes the angst and the bitterness.....once you learn the truth, you can't "unlearn" it. They have burned their bridges and the world that God has condemned is their only refuge. They end up as pathetic whiners, soliciting sympathy because of those big bad JW's........good grief.
In all my years as a JW I have not come across these monsters. But I don't expect my brothers to be any more perfect than I am....any more perfect than Jesus' own apostles.

Just had to come back to this for a second. First of all, I don't know of any ex-JWs who attack "their former congregation members." Perhaps there are a few, but I, personally, don't know of any who would do this. Generally, those who have escaped the JW organization tend to view those still entrapped as victims of a ruthless corporation that is using them as virtual slave labor in order to enrich itself. We speak out against the organization and its leaders who are masters at fleecing the flock of which you are a member. We certainly don't "hate" individual JWs, although I know a lot of JWs really WANT to feel as if they are hated because that goes along with their perception that, as "true Christians" they will be objects of persecution. It's not persecution, though...it's pity.

I also fail to understand how pointing out the flaws of this corporation is in any way "whining" or "soliciting sympathy." Lest you forget, Deeje, JWs have always been taught that pointing out the failings of various religions is an act of love. Isn't that why we were told we should continue to speak out against other religions...because we wanted to do the "loving" thing and let those poor adherents know what was really going on? Why is it that you consider those who are now speaking out and exposing the failings of the JW organization to be "monsters"?

Did you leave some other religion in order to become a JW? Does simply leaving a religious organization make a person a "monster"? Does that make YOU a "monster" or anyone who has left another religion a "monster" because you and they now speak out against your former religions?

Deeje...I'm just a person. If someone asks, I will explain to them why I left the JW organization. I haven't "turned on" my former congregation members, and I certainly don't whine, nor do I consider myself to be either "pathetic" OR a "monster." I will tell you, though, your personal attacks will not stop me from telling the truth about the "truth." Sorry about that.

I'm sure that you won't respond to me because you consider me to be some sort of disgusting, evil thing, but perhaps you could just post a general comment to pretty much anyone here explaining what it is that you believe makes me a "monster."

And remember...I was taught by the JWs that exposing the failings of a religious organization is a loving thing to do...and I, therefore, am doing exactly that.

 

[Vinayaka]

Just had to come back to this for a second. First of all, I don't know of any ex-JWs who attack "their former congregation members." Perhaps there are a few, but I, personally, don't know of any who would do this. Generally, those who have escaped the JW organization tend to view those still entrapped as victims of a ruthless corporation that is using them as virtual slave labor in order to enrich itself. We speak out against the organization and its leaders who are masters at fleecing the flock of which you are a member. We certainly don't "hate" individual JWs, although I know a lot of JWs really WANT to feel as if they are hated because that goes along with their perception that, as "true Christians" they will be objects of persecution. It's not persecution, though...it's pity.

I also fail to understand how pointing out the flaws of this corporation is in any way "whining" or "soliciting sympathy." Lest you forget, Deeje, JWs have always been taught that pointing out the failings of various religions is an act of love. Isn't that why we were told we should continue to speak out against other religions...because we wanted to do the "loving" thing and let those poor adherents know what was really going on? Why is it that you consider those who are now speaking out and exposing the failings of the JW organization to be "monsters"?

Did you leave some other religion in order to become a JW? Does simply leaving a religious organization make a person a "monster"? Does that make YOU a "monster" or anyone who has left another religion a "monster" because you and they now speak out against your former religions?

Deeje...I'm just a person. If someone asks, I will explain to them why I left the JW organization. I haven't "turned on" my former congregation members, and I certainly don't whine, nor do I consider myself to be either "pathetic" OR a "monster." I will tell you, though, your personal attacks will not stop me from telling the truth about the "truth." Sorry about that.

I'm sure that you won't respond to me because you consider me to be some sort of disgusting, evil thing, but perhaps you could just post a general comment to pretty much anyone here explaining what it is that you believe makes me a "monster."

And remember...I was taught by the JWs that exposing the failings of a religious organization is a loving thing to do...and I, therefore, am doing exactly that.

Often, as a neutral observer, I've learned far more from 'ex' sites than from the official sites of any group. Ex's tend to be far more open to telling the entire story. Thank you for being here.

 

[RedhorseWoman]

Maybe part of the public relations problems that the Jehovah's Witnesses have is due to this taking pride in being separate from the rest of the world, which sends a message that might not be intended - a sense of superiority, a sense that the rest of us are not good enough for the Jehovah's Witnesses to mix with.

There is most definitely a sense of superiority within the JW organization. After all, JWs "know" that they are "God's chosen people" and they "know" that they are destined for Paradise while any "worldlings" who reject them are destined for death. It's not so much that people in the world are not good enough for the JWs to mix with, although that is probably a small part of it, but mainly that non-JWs pose a danger to the spirituality of JWs and should, therefore, be avoided if at all possible.

I asked you a question a few days ago on this thread and didn't get an answer. I asked you if the Jehovah's Witnesses, who have a distinctive and characteristic appearance - groups of two or more adults, often with a child, dressed like the 19th century - when evangelizing, don't seem to be visible anywhere else in our community. My wife and I are involved with a few local clubs and charities, and have an active life in an expat community of retirees that takes us to several fund raisers a year. We never see the Jehovah's Witnesses as we have cone to expect them to appear at any of these functions, which is consistent with the denomination's view of the external world as being something to be avoided.

But then it occurred to me that I also never see these people in the market, in restaurants, at gas station, or any of the other public places people go. Do they dress differently for such activities so that they are not recognizable as Jehovah's Witnesses, or are they able to live their lives without the products and services of these public businesses?

I'll try to answer this as best I can. When out in "field service" JWs are expected to dress "appropriately" (as dictated by the group's leaders) which means that the men and boys (sometimes toddlers) wear suits and ties and the women and girls wear dresses (length below the knee, of course) and dress shoes.

There's no rule concerning dress (other than that it be modest) when JWs engage in the normal activities of daily life, so you probably wouldn't recognize them in any of those venues. However, occasionally JWs will go to a market or restaurant or some other public place right after a meeting or field service, so they would tend to stand out on those occasions. For instance, last Summer, my husband and I went to a local park where they have a walking path. A couple with two young children showed up dressed as you've described, and I realized (looking at the time) that they had just gotten out of the Sunday meeting at the Kingdom Hall that is not too far from that park.

While JWs are not required to wear anything special when engaging in day-to-day life, there was a talk by one of the Governing Body members not too long ago where he was railing against "skinny" pants for men (saying that they were created by homosexuals so that they could ogle the men wearing them) and stating in no uncertain terms that sisters should NOT wear Spandex (which he referred to as Spanx) if they engage in jogging or any other exercise regimen.

Hope that explains things for you.

 

[RedhorseWoman]

Thank you for at least referring to the WT library. The other reference is an apostate site which has what you would expect from our opposers. Twisted half-truths work better than lies. Even quoted statements taken out of context can be misconstrued.

Could you list some of those "half truths" and "out of context" quotes? Thanks.

We follow Biblical guidelines for disfellowshipping and make no apology for it. (1 Corinthians 5:9-13; Hebrews 12:11) Like the prodigal son, people are free to go if they have issues with our beliefs, (though these are fully explained before they are baptized) but if they want to break God's laws unrepentantly, they will be expelled. (This is also explained) But they are just as free to come back if they have repented of their sin. Pride often gets in the way however, and because there is nowhere for them to go, they get depressed and angry that their justification hasn't met with the approval of those authorized to judge those "inside" the congregation.....and so the sob story is told.......some want sympathy and some just want revenge.

Um...no, you don't. Never were there Biblical guidelines that stated that those who were removed from the congregation for repeated unrepentant sinning had to be shunned. Congregation members were urged not to associate with such ones as long as they were still sinning, but congregation members were allowed to make up their own minds as to how they would handle the matter, and NEVER were congregation members threatened with disfellowshipping and shunning themselves if they decided to engage in some sort of association with a disfellowshipped person.

There are indeed three sides if you take God as your witness. He cannot be swayed by crocodile tears or by distorting the truth.The lady would have nothing to say that I have not heard a hundred times before. The only person standing in the way of her recovery is herself, IMO.

I think I've stated this before, but I will restate it. My speaking out against the JW organization is not really for your benefit. Unless you are willing to examine your religion as you urge others to do, you will sing LA LA LA LA and hear nothing. I speak out so that others will know what the JW organization is like and, hopefully, avoid making the mistake of joining it.

And what, pray tell, do I require in the way of "recovery"? Recovery from what...knowing that I was duped by a religious publishing company posing as a religion? Explain, please.

Again, we go by the scriptures. It was Daniel who foretold the "cleansing, whitening and refining" of God's worshippers in the "time of the end"? (Daniel 12:9-10) Why would God need to "cleanse, whiten and refine" his people unless the removal of soiling and staining and impurities was necessary? We stripped Christianity down to its bare facts and examined every doctrine that Christendom had introduced.....we took God's word apart and found no basis for any of their teachings. All shared the same core beliefs....the trouble is, so did most of the non-Christian religions. The doctrines of all false worship have their common origins in ancient Babylon.

One problem...JWs are not "God's people."

 

[savagewind]

@Deeje has not called former Jehovah's Witnesses monsters. She says we call them monsters and we don't unless the definition of a monster means clueless.

 

[RedhorseWoman]

I actually don't see it as a big deal. You seem sincere. Many people are abandoning religion these days for all sorts of reasons. Its easy to see why you would want to leave the religion you have grown up with. You are still a Christian which is a good thing, but even if you were not, I wouldn't have a problem with it.

The purpose of religion is to enable us to become better people. That means being one who can contribute to humanity and become a half decent person. If our religion causes us to loose our compassion, become judgmental of others, and lose sight of our true purpose in this life, we are better off without such a religion. In other words no religion is better than the wrong religion.

I'm pleased to hear you were never disfellowshipped as being cast out from family and former friends is a terrible thing. Being estranged from family simply for coming to different conclusions about life is profoundly unjust. Freedom of religion is a fundamental right for us all. We shouldn't be forced to be a member of a congregation because of fear about being cast out. I'm truly relieved that wasn't your experience as it would be a terrible burden for you and your family if it were.

I'm somewhat disturbed to hear that you should be considered an apostate for simply seeking the truth for yourself and living by that truth.

Sadly, even though I am neither disfellowshipped nor disassociated, the majority of JWs still shun me as well as members of my family. Fortunately, my mother understood why I left, and she didn't shun me, but JW cousins and the majority of JW "friends" refuse to speak to me unless I agree to go back to the Kingdom Hall, which I will not and cannot do.

Several of my JW friends have left the organization as well, and our friendships continue to this day, so for that I'm grateful.

Anyone who leaves the JW organization and speaks out against it in any way is labelled as an "apostate" and is considered to be, basically, a "dead man walking." This is, IMO, yet another control mechanism employed by the JW organization to prevent current members from actually examining their religion (as they urge all others to do) and finding out things that the leadership would prefer remain hidden.

 

[RedhorseWoman]

@Deeje has not called former Jehovah's Witnesses monsters. She says we call them monsters and we don't unless the definition of a monster means clueless.

I was quoting from this paragraph that Deeje posted wherein it certainly does appear that she was referring to ex-JWs as monsters. Perhaps I misunderstood?

Do you even know these people or more importantly, their mental status? As a physician, should you not take their words with a grain of salt until you can verify their story? Do you know if their stories are even true, or grossly exaggerated to justify their defection? The net is awash with those who have turned on their former congregation members because they have nowhere else to go. That is what causes the angst and the bitterness.....once you learn the truth, you can't "unlearn" it. They have burned their bridges and the world that God has condemned is their only refuge. They end up as pathetic whiners, soliciting sympathy because of those big bad JW's........good grief.
In all my years as a JW I have not come across these monsters. But I don't expect my brothers to be any more perfect than I am....any more perfect than Jesus' own apostles.

 

[Trailblazer]

The prophesy in Isaiah is about Jesus, not Baha'u'llah.

Isaiah 9:6-7....
"For a child has been born to us,
A son has been given to us;
And the rulership will rest on his shoulder.
His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
7 To the increase of his rulership
And to peace, there will be no end,
On the throne of David and on his kingdom
In order to establish it firmly and to sustain it
Through justice and righteousness,
From now on and forever.
The zeal of Jehovah of armies will do this." .

No, that prophesy is not about Jesus for the reasons I previously cited.

Was Baha'u'llah a god? How did he ascend to the throne of David? He was not Jewish. Only Jews in the tribe of Judah could be Kings. Jesus qualified, Baha'u'llah did not. .

Jesus was not God, nor was Baha’u’llah, but Jesus came in the station of the Son whereas Baha’u’llah came in the station of the Father. Baha’u’llah sat on the throne of David, but it is not a physical throne like Kings sit on. Rather, that throne is symbolic of power and glory.

I never said that Baha’u’llah was a King. He did not need to be a King in order to rule. As a Manifestation of God Baha’u’llah was invested with power to rule for God

“THE Most Great Law is come, and the Ancient Beauty ruleth upon the throne of David. Thus hath My Pen spoken that which the histories of bygone ages have related. At this time, however, David crieth aloud and saith: ‘O my loving Lord! Do Thou number me with such as have stood steadfast in Thy Cause, O Thou through Whom the faces have been illumined, and the footsteps have slipped!’” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 89-90​

Trailblazer said: The job of bringing world peace will take a long time and it will go in phases. The work will be done by humans, not by God or Jesus.

Deeje said: The Bible disagrees with you. The Kingdom is not man made, nor does it depend on man to bring it about. (Daniel 2:44) Man has had many thousands of years to get his act together, but he is no better at ruling himself now than he ever was.....he is hopeless. God is allowing him to prove it. He has tried all manner of governments and all have failed. There is only one left to try....and its coming, ready or not. .

You mean YOUR interpretation of the Bible disagrees with me. The Bible is just a book with pages we read and interpret; the Bible does not DO anything.

Daniel 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.​

Through Baha’u’llah, God DID set up His Kingdom that will never be destroyed, and it shall stand forever.

God is not coming to rule on earth because God does not EVER come to earth. That is one reason why we know that God is not coming to earth. God sent Baha’u’llah to reveal the blueprint instructions necessary in order for the Baha’is to build His Kingdom and that is exactly what the Baha’is are doing right now, building the Kingdom of God, also known as the New World Order.

“This is the Day in which God’s most excellent favors have been poured out upon men, the Day in which His most mighty grace hath been infused into all created things. It is incumbent upon all the peoples of the world to reconcile their differences, and, with perfect unity and peace, abide beneath the shadow of the Tree of His care and loving-kindness. It behoveth them to cleave to whatsoever will, in this Day, be conducive to the exaltation of their stations, and to the promotion of their best interests. Happy are those whom the all-glorious Pen was moved to remember, and blessed are those men whose names, by virtue of Our inscrutable decree, We have preferred to conceal.

Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 6-7​

That is the worst misinterpretation of scripture that I think I have ever seen! Every one of them is horribly skewed.
I could write pages just on those scriptures alone.

You have never studied the Bible then....? .

I do not need to study the Bible myself. Some Baha’is have done that for me. Those verses were interpreted by George Townshend, who was a dignitary of the Anglican Church in Ireland and a Canon of St. Patrick’s Cathedral, Dublin, who resigned his Orders after forty years to proclaim his conviction that Christ has come again to an unheeding world in the person of Baha’u’llah, Founder of the Baha’i Faith. He was the author of the book Christ and Baha'u'llah and that is where I derived those interpretations.

Maybe you think you know more than he did about the Bible just because he became a Baha’i, but he became a Baha’i because he knew what the Bible really meant.

Jesus was finished his work in the flesh....but not finished as mankind's King by a long shot. He said he was coming back for those chosen to rule with him in his Kingdom....he went to heaven to "prepare a place" for them and would return as judge to separate the sheep from the goats and end wickedness on earth, and take them "home". If this is the way Baha'i's interpret the Bible, then any wonder they they can squeeze all those strange beliefs into one religion.

.

Jesus is in heaven with God and Baha’u’llah and all of the other Manifestations of God who ever lived, and there Jesus will stay. He has no more work to do and He is kicking back and taking it easy, since He finished all His work. Jesus is not going to be building any kingdom on earth.... Either you have a problem with reading comprehension or the Bible is in error.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.​

Baha’u’llah picked up where Jesus left off and continued the work Jesus was doing down here on earth, just as Jesus promised the Comforter and Spirit of truth would do in John 14 and John 16.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

John 16:12-13 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
​

But now Baha’u’llah is in heaven directing traffic down here.

"Let not your hearts be perturbed, O people, when the glory of My Presence is withdrawn, and the ocean of My utterance is stilled. In My presence amongst you there is a wisdom, and in My absence there is yet another, inscrutable to all but God, the Incomparable, the All-Knowing. Verily, We behold you from Our realm of glory, and shall aid whosoever will arise for the triumph of Our Cause with the hosts of the Concourse on high and a company of Our favored angels." Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 139​

 

[RedhorseWoman]

@Deeje has not called former Jehovah's Witnesses monsters. She says we call them monsters and we don't unless the definition of a monster means clueless.

I re-read that paragraph again, and you are correct...she was referring to ex-JWs considering JWs to be monsters and not the other way around. I misunderstood it, I think, simply because I don't know of any ex-JWs who view individual JWs in that way. I know that I certainly don't. However, after having JWs call me and other ex-JWs immoral, liars, disgusting, children of Satan, and many other very insulting terms, I misread her comment as her referring to ex-JWs as monsters. Just one more insult...but I was wrong. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[Deeje]

I think its important to distinguish an authentic website from one that isn't. Us Baha'is have our fair share of critics, particularly Muslims who see the Baha'is as an apostate religion and try to misrepresent us. The Baha'is are actively persecuted in a number of Islamic countries.

So you understand about "ex's"? They always seem to have an agenda...to paint their former associates in a very bad light, whilst playing the victim to solicit any available sympathy. Anyone who has been on the receiving end of an ex's fury will understand how distorted the stories can become, especially when justification needs support by exaggeration or a twisting of the truth.

We have people who either grew up Baha'is or became Baha'is but later decided its not for them. That's fine. People are free to come and go and there is no shunning simply because someone decides he no longer wants to be a Baha'i.

We are the same. When children are raised by JW's, it is our hope that they will follow our faith, but if they choose not to, we do not treat them as outcasts.....and as long as they do not try to publicly bring reproach on our brotherhood to support their choice, we will not shun them either. However, if they behave like apostates, we will treat them as such. They can leave and have nothing further to do with us if they wish, because if they were never baptized, then they were never JW's to begin with. Baptism to us is not just joining a church, but dedicating ourselves to God as a disciple of Jesus Christ. It involves vows that we view as binding upon the individual making them. (Ecclesiastes 5:4-6) Like a marriage, if you don't take the vows, you were never married in the first place. If you are married, you are not free to just walk out the door as if there is no expectation of you. If you want a 'divorce' there is a procedure and an expectation that things will not usually end well.

It seems to me you are being somewhat harsh in your assessment of @RedhorseWoman. I don't think she's shedding crocodile tears or is in recovery. She's simply giving her perspective as we are all entitled to do. There will be plenty of stories of ex-Baha'is to be found on line and if one dropped into this thread, I wouldn't have an issue with her. That is an important difference between our faiths in how we deal with dissent and those with different perspectives.

Anyone who wants to bad mouth people just because things didn't go their way are a dime a dozen on the net.
I have no concern about those who leave because if they want to come back, that is between them and God....but again there is procedure. The shepherds have a very heavy responsibility to keep the congregation clean, both spiritually and morally. (Hebrews 13:17) They have been appointed to this task and we follow the rules that have always been in place, but largely ignored by the churches, who are not clean either morally or spiritually, in my experience.

All faith communities go through tests and difficulties and its how we respond to those tests that distinguishes our character. As individuals our spiritual walk is largely between ourselves and God and no one else.

God has always operated organizationally because he is "a God of order". When Israel became numerous, he freed them from slavery in Egypt in spectacular fashion, with great displays of his power to show up the useless gods of Egypt. He then formed them into one nation and divided them up into tribes, according to their family patriarchs. He then offered them the opportunity to become his people, but they had to agree to abide by his laws, which carried stiff penalties if they disobeyed. They unanimously agreed, but as time went on, they disobediently chose to go down many false paths and eventually lost his favor. He kept them in existence until he had produced the promised Messiah....then he "abandoned" them as serial covenant breakers and murderers. (Matthew 23:37-39; John 8:44)

When Jesus came, the "lost sheep of the house of Israel" were drawn out of that now apostate system, and into a much simpler form of worship....but still very organized. Christians formed congregations and had a body of 'elders' to "shepherd the flock". These shepherds were given authority within the congregation to judge wrongdoers. (1 Corinthians 5:11-13) Any unrepentant ones, guilty of breaking the rules were to be expelled from fellowship with the faithful. No one was free to bring in foreign teachings from outside of what Christ taught. (2 John :9-10)

The most important aspect of the spiritual path was well summarised by Jesus when asked of the most important Teachings. He simply referred to Deuteronomy 6:5 when He spoke of love for God and to love our fellow man (Matthew 22:37-40). He even taught love your enemies (Luke 6:27-36).

Even so, our commitment to Jesus Christ is a true commitment nonetheless; its not like joining a club. There are rules that apply to all collectively.....and if we 'love God and our neighbor' then we will be happy to comply. We don't get to set our own rules, and there are penalties if we break the ones that God made. If you know the rules beforehand, how can you cry foul when you are disciplined for breaking them? Whining does not change anything.

I can find something in common with most people. We're all people after all. Most of us want to the best for our children and many of us simply want to see the world become a better place. Social conditions were very different in the Roman Empire to what they are now. Most people are not evil.

Do you think that we don't have things in common with others? We are part of the population too and have to rub shoulders and get along with all sorts of people every day. But socially, we are not a lot different to anyone else. We tend to gravitate towards those with whom we share common interests. As a global spiritual family, we take care of each other like no other religious organization that I know of. I am proud to be part of this family, though I am under no delusions that there may be those who do not display the necessary qualities for a Christian, but God will sort them out. They don't stay. Do they jump or are they pushed? God knows.

I don't see any scriptural basis for the appointment and leadership with the Jehovah Witnesses that wouldn't apply to any other church.

Nor do I see any valid identification for your prophet or any authentic verification of your belief system in the Bible....so agreeing to disagree is all we can do. Faith is what it is....it can be completely misdirected. We will all find out in the end.

The authority of the Baha'i Faith rests with democratically elected institutions rather than individuals that all members in good standing over the age of 21 have the priviledge and duty to be part of. The legitamcy of such institutions is derived from the writings of Baha'u'llah Himself. Christ appointed Peter but the argument about apostolic succession has become tenuous after nearly two thousand years, don't you think?

If others do not accept Baha'u'llah as a prophet, then nothing he said will make a scrap of difference to anyone else but yourselves....he is not a genuine prophet to me....only to Baha'i's.

The lineage according the Jewish custom is through the male line. Jesus being born to a virgin essentially rules Christ out.

Did you miss the disclaimer at the end of your cited article...?

"Joel Smith is a member of the Baha'i Faith living in Carbondale, Southern Illinois in the United States. This article has been adapted from an article written by Phil Turner. The opinions expressed in this article constitute Joel Smith's own personal understanding and do not necessarily represent the official position of the Baha'i Faith or it's teachings." Kind of undoes the whole argument IMO.

Jesus was assumed to be the son of Joseph....."When He [Jesus] began His ministry, Jesus Himself was about thirty years of age, being, as was supposed, the son of Joseph, the son of Eli".... (Luke 3:23) This genealogy is about the male line.

The issue isn't whether or not Jesus or Baha'u'llah was literally God, but did They represent God in the Message They brought? Both did IMHO.

You are entitled to your opinion, but I will never share it. Jesus was not God but acted as the LOGOS. No other is said to fill that role but Jesus.

After two thousand years Isaiah 9:6-7 hasn't been fulfilled by Jesus Christ and given the decline of Christianity won't anytime soon. OTOH the Baha'i Faith does seem to be in a period of rapid growth and development.

Wow!....a statement like that just makes me smile. It was foretold that the 'weeds' of false Christianity would grow and basically overshadow the 'wheat' until the time of the harvest. Tell me what has Baha'u'llah accomplished since his death? Can you tell me why Christ had to die twice in the flesh? Where is Jesus' tomb? Baha'u'llah has a very ornate resting place....how come?

Jesus said that 'the world would behold him no more'......yet you say that he came again as a human. There was to be no such thing according to scripture...unless of course you make up your own or have someone do it for you? I guess 'scripture' can become whatever you want it to be.

Time will tell.

It will indeed. Thank God that Jesus is the appointed judge.....I can't see where God ever appointed Baha'u'llah as anything. He is not even mentioned.

According to my beliefs, God will show us all soon what he thinks of all this world's religions.

 

[RedhorseWoman]

So you understand about "ex's"? They always seem to have an agenda...to paint their former associates in a very bad light, whilst playing the victim to solicit any available sympathy. Anyone who has been on the receiving end of an ex's fury will understand how distorted the stories can become, especially when justification needs support by exaggeration or a twisting of the truth.

An ex's fury? Could you please give examples of how you, personally have been on the receiving end of such "fury"? Methinks you are exaggerating, or perhaps, outright lying.

We are the same. When children are raised by JW's, it is our hope that they will follow our faith, but if they choose not to, we do not treat them as outcasts.....and as long as they do not try to publicly bring reproach on our brotherhood to support their choice, we will not shun them either. However, if they behave like apostates, we will treat them as such. They can leave and have nothing further to do with us if they wish, because if they were never baptized, then they were never JW's to begin with. Baptism to us is not just joining a church, but dedicating ourselves to God as a disciple of Jesus Christ. It involves vows that we view as binding upon the individual making them. (Ecclesiastes 5:4-6) Like a marriage, if you don't take the vows, you were never married in the first place. If you are married, you are not free to just walk out the door as if there is no expectation of you. If you want a 'divorce' there is a procedure and an expectation that things will not usually end well.

Now this is definitely an outright lie. When I first became inactive and was no longer attending the Kingdom Hall, all of my former JW friends avoided me like the plague. I never spoke out against the organization, but it made no difference. If I wasn't an active JW, then I no longer existed as far as they were concerned.

As far as dedication vows are concerned, such vows originally did not include the current connection to the Watchtower Society as they do now, and leaving a man-made organization does nothing to negate those vows. Someone who leaves the JW organization does not "leave Jehovah."

Anyone who wants to bad mouth people just because things didn't go their way are a dime a dozen on the net.
I have no concern about those who leave because if they want to come back, that is between them and God....but again there is procedure. The shepherds have a very heavy responsibility to keep the congregation clean, both spiritually and morally. (Hebrews 13:17) They have been appointed to this task and we follow the rules that have always been in place, but largely ignored by the churches, who are not clean either morally or spiritually, in my experience.

Again, as we were taught, it is a loving thing to point out the failings of a religious organization, and we simply are continuing to show that love by speaking out about the problems and failings of the JW organization. Why you seem to think that discussing the failings of an organization is somehow "badmouthing" individuals is beyond me. Why do you speak out against other religions? Are you saying that you and other JWs are actually "badmouthing" the members of those religions?

God has always operated organizationally because he is "a God of order". When Israel became numerous, he freed them from slavery in Egypt in spectacular fashion, with great displays of his power to show up the useless gods of Egypt. He then formed them into one nation and divided them up into tribes, according to their family patriarchs. He then offered them the opportunity to become his people, but they had to agree to abide by his laws, which carried stiff penalties if they disobeyed. They unanimously agreed, but as time went on, they disobediently chose to go down many false paths and eventually lost his favor. He kept them in existence until he had produced the promised Messiah....then he "abandoned" them as serial covenant breakers and murderers. (Matthew 23:37-39; John 8:44)

When Jesus came, the "lost sheep of the house of Israel" were drawn out of that now apostate system, and into a much simpler form of worship....but still very organized. Christians formed congregations and had a body of 'elders' to "shepherd the flock". These shepherds were given authority within the congregation to judge wrongdoers. (1 Corinthians 5:11-13) Any unrepentant ones, guilty of breaking the rules were to be expelled from fellowship with the faithful. No one was free to bring in foreign teachings from outside of what Christ taught. (2 John :9-10)

Actually, for the majority of the time, God dealt with individuals and not an organization or a nation of people.

Even so, our commitment to Jesus Christ is a true commitment nonetheless; its not like joining a club. There are rules that apply to all collectively.....and if we 'love God and our neighbor' then we will be happy to comply. We don't get to set our own rules, and there are penalties if we break the ones that God made. If you know the rules beforehand, how can you cry foul when you are disciplined for breaking them? Whining does not change anything.

You must comply whether you are happy about it or not. If you do not comply, you will, at the very least, be counseled and considered to be spiritually weak or a bad association, or you will be disfellowshipped.

Do you think that we don't have things in common with others? We are part of the population too and have to rub shoulders and get along with all sorts of people every day. But socially, we are not a lot different to anyone else. We tend to gravitate towards those with whom we share common interests. As a global spiritual family, we take care of each other like no other religious organization that I know of. I am proud to be part of this family, though I am under no delusions that there may be those who do not display the necessary qualities for a Christian, but God will sort them out. They don't stay. Do they jump or are they pushed? God knows.

You gravitate towards other JWs mainly because your leaders warn you not to associate with people in "the world" for fear that they will damage your spirituality and drag you into immoral practices.

According to my beliefs, God will show us all soon what he thinks of all this world's religions.

According to JW beliefs, only JWs are favorable in God's eyes. However, due to the corruption in the JW organization, JWs should be worried about their religion as well.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I find the Jehovah Witnesses really interesting not just from a religious perspective but also a sociology and psychology aspect. It’s a movement that began with Charles Taze Russell back in about 1870. Charles Taze had been Presbyterian but started his own bible study questioning core Christian doctrines such as the Trinity, hell and the immortality of the soul. He had been strongly influenced by the Millerites who believed in Armageddon and the imminent return of Christ. Earlier that century William Miller had predicted the Return of Christ, first in 1843 but then later in 1844 the year the Bab or forerunner to Bahá’u’lláh proclaimed His Mission in Persia.

The Millerites didn’t think in terms of a man such as Moses, Jesus or Buddha bringing a Revelation from God. Instead they.believed apocalyptic and literal fulfilment in the book of Revelation was going to happen. Christ would literally appear from clouds that could be seen by all. The faithful would be taken up into the heaven to be with Christ and Satan would rule on earth.

So convinced were the Millerites that many sold or gave away their possessions in expectation. When prophecies were not literally fulfilled according to their expectations it was labelled as the great disappointment. The JWs like the Millerites are still waiting in expectation of the apocalypse. Numerous failed predictions haven’t stopped the movement. The JWs are the chosen ones of God and the only ones who have the truth. The rest of us are being deceived by Satan. The JWs haven’t sold their possessions but in the USA many are discouraged from attending university or higher education as such an environment might corrupt their young people. Of all religious groups the JWs have the lowest rates of tertiary qualifications in the US.

 

[Dawnofhope]

. My wife and I are involved with a few local clubs and charities, and have an active life in an expat community of retirees that takes us to several fund raisers a year. We never see the Jehovah's Witnesses as we have cone to expect them to appear at any of these functions, which is consistent with the denomination's view of the external world as being something to be avoided.

That’s great you are involved in charity work.

I have a busy life with a family and work. Still I volunteer my time for free to provide free medical care for those who needed. The Centre is run by Christians but the JWs are never involved.

Each month I attend my cities interfaith council meeting dedicated to promoting tolerance and understanding between faiths. The main Christian denominations are well represented, all except the JWs.

My wife recented volunteered through Red Cross to assist Syrian refugees to relocate in my city. It involved accompanying a family over a six month period when they first arrived. No JWs there either.

In the Baha’i Faith we believe let deeds not words be your adorning. The New Testament is pretty clear too (James 2:14-26). By their fruits Ye shall know them (Matthew 7:16). Charity is one of the five pillars of Islam.

 

[Trailblazer]

It will indeed. Thank God that Jesus is the appointed judge.....

Jesus cannot judge anyone, only God can judge anyone....
I am sure you can find some verses that "you believe" say that Jesus can judge,
I have already seen those.

I can't see where God ever appointed Baha'u'llah as anything.

You can't see that because you only read the Bible....

He is not even mentioned.

But He is referenced every time the Messiah and the return of Christ is mentioned.

According to my beliefs, God will show us all soon what he thinks of all this world's religions.

God has already done so.

“The Purpose of the one true God, exalted be His glory, in revealing Himself unto men is to lay bare those gems that lie hidden within the mine of their true and inmost selves. That the divers communions of the earth, and the manifold systems of religious belief, should never be allowed to foster the feelings of animosity among men, is, in this Day, of the essence of the Faith of God and His Religion. These principles and laws, these firmly-established and mighty systems, have proceeded from one Source, and are the rays of one Light. That they differ one from another is to be attributed to the varying requirements of the ages in which they were promulgated.....” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 287-288