• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Who here believes in "Scientism"?

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I don’t think so. Many historians see history through various “lenses”, depending on types of available source and their likely biases but without necessarily trying to strive for a single, supposedly “objective” view. My understanding ( I am not a historian, admittedly, though my father was and my son is) is that many would say it is impossible to arrive at one objective view at all.

So historians are simply storytellers? Purveyors of events only as seen through the biased "lens" of an individual, group of individual, or through a particular cultural "lens"? Do they have no interest in corroborating claimed factual occurrences? Seems history is synonymous with literary fiction in that case, doesn't it?

Does it have to be this way? Can historians strive to present the subjective attitudes of those involved in a historical event or period with fidelity? Can a historian strive to accumulate and corroborate factual data regarding the period or events covered and use that factual material in their analysis of the subjective attitudes involved?

Much like with our understanding of physics, let's say, we may not have all the information necessary to fully explain an event or phenomenon. I'm sure you agree this is also true for history. Can historians not build theories around the facts that are available and present the theory in terms of degrees of confidence, as is done in science, along with alternative theories and the rational behind the theories given the set of available facts?

Once a historical story is told, is it then immutable and fixed, immune from reevaluation or reconsideration, even if new information comes to light? If this is not the case, then how is this different from a scientific approach?

It would be my opinion that history could not be considered anything other than knowledge of the subjective mind of the historian without these kinds of principle, born out of the scientific revolution, being applied to the work product.
 
Last edited:

PureX

Veteran Member
Empirically. Can you think of an example of something that can be called historical knowledge that wasn't ascertained empirically, that is, by the application of reason and memory to experience? And no, that doesn't mean going back in a time machine to witness historical events firsthand. We use the evidence present today. Why do we believe FDR or Alexander lived and did the things we have learned they are said to have done? Why do we say that King David was a historical figure but not Noah or Adam? Evidence or the lack thereof.

Nor need you. I'm already familiar with all of those. But thanks anyway.

I notice that you didn't even try to defend your position. You never do. You imply that you have knowledge not ascertained empirically, but never give an example of what that might be. What are the possible explanations for that and which of them is most likely? That's a rhetorical question.
No need to. You’re making my point for me.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
So historians are simply storytellers? Purveyors of events only as seen through the biased "lens" of an individual, group of individual, or through a particular cultural "lens"? Do they have no interest in corroborating claimed factual occurrences? Seems history is synonymous with literary fiction in that case, doesn't it?

Does it have to be this way? Can historians strive to present the subjective attitudes of those involved in a historical event or period with fidelity? Can a historian strive to accumulate and corroborate factual data regarding the period or events covered and use that factual material in their analysis of the subjective attitudes involved?

Much like with our understanding of physics, let's say, we may not have all the information necessary to fully explain an event or phenomenon. I'm sure you agree this is also true for history. Can historians not build theories around the facts that are available and present the theory in terms of degrees of confidence, as is done in science, along with alternative theories and the rational behind the theories given the set of available facts?

Once a historical story is told, is it then immutable and fixed, immune from reevaluation or reconsideration, even if new information comes to light? If this is not the case, then how is this different from a scientific approach?

It would be my opinion that history could not be considered anything other than knowledge of the subjective mind of the historian without these kinds of principle, born out of the scientific revolution, being applied to the work product.
Well, as I understand it - and there may be others here better qualified to comment on the nature of history as a discipline - it's a mixture. Some of of it certainly is to do with ascertaining the truth of events in the past, but it is also concerned with how people saw events and processes from various points of view. This Britannica article goes into it a bit: Philosophy of history | Summary, Theories, Philosophers, & Facts

I'm not convinced the latter really qualifies as empirical, unless one takes that to encompass any academic field in which one reads, considers and draws conclusions from what others have written. And if one does that, then theology is also an empirical study, isn't it?

To challenge the notion of the primacy of empiricism a bit more, what about music, or literary criticism? Do you regard those too as empirical studies?
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
The limits of empiricism aren't difficult to discern. Entities are observable, while terms, concepts, meanings and beliefs are not. Therefore any attempt at extrapolating explanation from observation is, by definition, non-empirical.
 

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Well, as I understand it - and there may be others here better qualified to comment on the nature of history as a discipline - it's a mixture. Some of of it certainly is to do with ascertaining the truth of events in the past, but it is also concerned with how people saw events and processes from various points of view. This Britannica article goes into it a bit: Philosophy of history | Summary, Theories, Philosophers, & Facts

How people saw events, all that makes up a subjective actor in historical events, is an objective occurrence. If the historian is putting words in the mouths of historical actors or assigning beliefs and attitudes to historical actors that they did not hold, then yes, that would be fiction and not empirical. If on the other hand, the historian strives to capture and represent with fidelity the words of the historical actor and through that build a picture of that actor's beliefs and intents, and especially evaluating those words within the cultural context in which they were spoken, then I would see that as an empirical activity. Of course, we *are* dealing with the behaviors and actions of human beings. Human beings who are not completely open books and beyond being guarded and deceptive in their external interactions also have the capacity for self-deception.

Does all this make the historians job all the more difficult? Of course. Does it mean historians should give up and not strive for fidelity and accuracy? Absolutely not, in my opinion. It just means that their conclusions can only be asserted and received as falling within some range of confidence.

I'm not convinced the latter really qualifies as empirical, unless one takes that to encompass any academic field in which one reads, considers and draws conclusions from what others have written. And if one does that, then theology is also an empirical study, isn't it?

First, let me say that science *is* philosophy. What distinguishes this improvement in philosophy, born out of work in natural philosophy, is the fundamental acknowledgement and acceptance that human beings are inherently imperfect and fallible. It was the sobering realization that the philosopher could not trust themselves implicitly to be free from error, a realization that the philosopher could no longer rely on their intelligence or cleverness alone. Intuition could no longer be regarded as infallible. It means that the philosopher must maintain a posture of rational skepticism, in regards to both his own thinking and that of others.

With this sobering realization it became clear that to productively engage in philosophy, the philosopher needs to take active steps to mitigate this inherent fallibility that is present in all human beings, including philosophers. So it does not matter the subject that the philosopher sets his mind to, what the particular question is, what means, methods, and instrumentation may be required, for in all cases, the philosopher must first address and take steps to mitigate the introduction and affects of human error in the investigatory/philosophical process/endeavor. This is all that "science" is, a new and more effective approach to the traditional philosophy of the past, with empiricism being a key component to this new approach.

Also note that I say "mitigate" human error and not eliminate or prevent. This is also a key feature of the new approach as knowledge acquired is not held in terms of being or representing absolute truths, rather, acquired knowledge is held with varying degrees of confidence, which is also a fundamental shift from how philosophy was previously practiced.

This brings us now to your question of whether Theology should be considered an empirical study. This is a prime example that clearly illustrates how the new and improved philosophy was place or defined into a narrow and restrictive box that declared the new philosophy could only be used to address a limited category of questions, and a firewall erected and vigorously defended to prevent the new philosophical approach from being applied to the whole of philosophy.

For us to have any confidence in what Theology has to say, or in the conclusion that it draws, it would have to employ the standards and principles of scientific investigation, which would include an approach of rational skepticism and empiricism. In other words, unless and until error mitigation is employed within the field of Theology, what Theology produces must be taken with a grain of salt.

To challenge the notion of the primacy of empiricism a bit more, what about music, or literary criticism? Do you regard those too as empirical studies?

First, let's be clear that not all of our subjective human experience involves issues of objective truth. There are aspects of life in which the objective true/false dichotomy does not apply, but instead deal with expressions of subjective preference. Aesthetics (Art, Music, Literature) and Morals/Ethics would fall under this category.

The new philosophical approach is still relevant and necessary however, because it is this approach that allows us to demarcate between what can be considered objective, subjective preference, or pure analytic abstraction, and once demarcated, address accordingly. As there are questions and circumstances that can involve all three, it is imperative that these distinctions not be lost if one wants a hope of mitigating human fallibility in trying to answer such questions or address these more complex circumstances effectively.

So, in regards to music, one can make empirical observations, use factual data to describe and categorize music, but what should be considered "good" or have "value" comes down to subjective preference, with such preference influenced by both physical biology, cultural conditioning, and personal experiences. In other words, the answer rests solely within the eye of the beholder.

Literary criticism or analysis could be done within the standards and principles of what I have been calling "the new philosophical approach", carefully teasing out the objective, subjective preference, and pure analytic abstractions, or it can simply be a subjective expression regarding someone else's literary subjective expression.
 

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The limits of empiricism aren't difficult to discern. Entities are observable, while terms, concepts, meanings and beliefs are not. Therefore any attempt at extrapolating explanation from observation is, by definition, non-empirical.

Awareness is observation, and once aware, we can demarcate and differentiate between all the things we are aware of. Is our awareness of something real and existent outside of our mind, or is it only something contained or part of our real and existent mind. Empiricism aids us in making that determination.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
Awareness is observation, and once aware, we can demarcate and differentiate between all the things we are aware of. Is our awareness of something real and existent outside of our mind, or is it only something contained or part of our real and existent mind. Empiricism aids us in making that determination.



Hm. Are you saying that observing one’s own thought processes is the same as observing material phenomena like the sky? How, in the former case, does one separate the object from the observer?

All of our experience happens in the domain of conscious awareness, though, of course. In that sense, consciousness is absolutely fundamental. It’s essential to everything we are and everything we know.
 

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Hm. Are you saying that observing one’s own thought processes is the same as observing material phenomena like the sky? How, in the former case, does one separate the object from the observer?

All of our experience happens in the domain of conscious awareness, though, of course. In that sense, consciousness is absolutely fundamental. It’s essential to everything we are and everything we know.

Hmmm. It is all thought process as you acknowledge in the second half of your response. It is therefore not about separating the thought from the observer, but distinguishing what exactly the thought represents. All thoughts are real events/occurrences. Is the thought solely a creation of the CNS itself or is it a valid compilation/interpretation of sensory information? That ability to demarcate requires empiricism. It also requires empiricism to verify whether thoughts not generated from external sensory information are thoughts that remain consistent with, or comport with, the real world external to the self.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
Hmmm. It is all thought process as you acknowledge in the second half of your response. It is therefore not about separating the thought from the observer, but distinguishing what exactly the thought represents. All thoughts are real events/occurrences. Is the thought solely a creation of the CNS itself or is it a valid compilation/interpretation of sensory information? That ability to demarcate requires empiricism. It also requires empiricism to verify whether thoughts not generated from external sensory information are thoughts that remain consistent with, or comport with, the real world external to the self.


Even if I concede all of that, it still seems we are approaching the limits of empiricism. For while observation of the natural world can, hypothetically at least, be neutral, value free, objective even; self examination never can.

Observation and interpretation are separate processes, and the latter relies upon un-observable, and therefore non-empirical, subjective constructs.
 

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Even if I concede all of that, it still seems we are approaching the limits of empiricism. For while observation of the natural world can, hypothetically at least, be neutral, value free, objective even; self examination never can.

Observation and interpretation are separate processes, and the latter relies upon un-observable, and therefore non-empirical, subjective constructs.

Are you arguing that the mind is an impenetrable black box, who's inner working are beyond our abilities to observe in any way?
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
Are you arguing that the mind is an impenetrable black box, who's inner working are beyond our abilities to observe in any way?


Am I? No, I don’t think so. I’m arguing that there are limits to what can be apprehended through observation alone. And that once we begin drawing conclusions from our observations, well, we need a metaphysics for that.
 

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Am I? No, I don’t think so. I’m arguing that there are limits to what can be apprehended through observation alone. And that once we begin drawing conclusions from our observations, well, we need a metaphysics for that.

And, (using your philosophy nomenclature), isn't empiricism more than mere observation, rather it refers to a system of thought, complete with metaphysical components?
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
And, (using your philosophy nomenclature), isn't empiricism more than mere observation, rather it refers to a system of thought, complete with metaphysical components?
Empiricism is a specific process of first person observation which is repeatable and testable by secondary persons. The very reason history, psychology, sociology and other fields are considered 'soft' science is because all or most of their day to day operations do not utilize empiricism. Because science and empiricism are limited in actual information gathering processes which are foundational to science, but do not need science to operate.

E.g. science needs philosophy, logistics, psychology, sociology, language and even art, but those things operate without science.
Empirically. Can you think of an example of something that can be called historical knowledge that wasn't ascertained empirically, that is, by the application of reason and memory to experience? And no, that doesn't mean going back in a time machine to witness historical events firsthand. We use the evidence present today. Why do we believe FDR or Alexander lived and did the things we have learned they are said to have done? Why do we say that King David was a historical figure but not Noah or Adam? Evidence or the lack thereof.

Nor need you. I'm already familiar with all of those. But thanks anyway.

I notice that you didn't even try to defend your position. You never do. You imply that you have knowledge not ascertained empirically, but never give an example of what that might be. What are the possible explanations for that and which of them is most likely? That's a rhetorical question.
Empiricism is not equivalent to memory and experience, nor logic and reason. It utilizes those things but specifically, yes, in first person. Anything that cannot be experienced first hand, and tested by others first hand, is by definition not empirical information. Utilizing subjective witness information is non-empirical. But being non-empirical does not mean useless.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Empiricism is a specific process of first person observation which is repeatable and testable by secondary persons.
As I am using the word, it also applies to subjective experience. I know that I like strawberries but not Brussels sprouts empirically. I've tasted both and one brough pleasure while the other did the opposite.

Wisdom is also an example of subjective knowledge acquired empirically. If intelligence as the capacity to get what one wants, wisdom is the knowledge of what to pursue to secure happiness and contentment. We learn that by trial and error if we learn it at all, and it varies according to the individual.

My point is that everything that I know about how the world, my body, and my mind work has been ascertained empirically, and I think that's true for all of us, although many call some of their beliefs truth when they are not demonstrably correct ideas. Those who use the word scientism as a pejorative are implying that there are other ways to acquire knowledge besides experience.

When people refer to spiritual truths, for example, they appear to be talking about nothing. Why do I think this? Ask one to share a bit of their spiritual truth and the non-empirical method they used to acquire it. <crickets> Perhaps you saw me challenge a poster on this thread to do that and saw the nonresponse. That's all that question ever gets.
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
As I am using the word, it also applies to subjective experience. I know that I like strawberries but not Brussels sprouts empirically. I've tasted both and one brough pleasure while the other did the opposite.

Wisdom is also an example of subjective knowledge acquired empirically. If intelligence as the capacity to get what one wants, wisdom is the knowledge of what to pursue to secure happiness and contentment. We learn that by trial and error if we learn it at all, and it varies according to the individual.

My point is that everything that I know about how the world, my body, and my mind work has been ascertained empirically, and I think that's true for all of us, although many call some of their beliefs truth when they are not demonstrably correct ideas. Those who use the word scientism as a pejorative are implying that there are other ways to acquire knowledge besides experience.

When people refer to spiritual truths, for example, they appear to be talking about nothing. Why do I think this? Ask one to share a bit of their spiritual truth and the non-empirical method they used to acquire it. <crickets> Perhaps you saw me challenge a poster on this thread to do that and saw the nonresponse. That's all that question ever gets.
But that's not how empiricism is defined or utilized. It's like calling the bay the ocean. Empiricism is only a fraction of how information is gathered, and it specifically, definitively DISCLUDES second-hand information. Which would mean it's trivially easy to show you non-empirical truth by just explaining a subjective experience you have no access to. You cannot empirically verify my autism, for instance.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Hello. I just want to say that I had to come to a decision, and it was not always an easy one, because nay-sayers can be persuasive. Even if they're wrong and cannot be "proven" wrong. I am in favor of the Bible, not something that supposedly disproves the Bible.
 

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Empiricism is a specific process of first person observation which is repeatable and testable by secondary persons. The very reason history, psychology, sociology and other fields are considered 'soft' science is because all or most of their day to day operations do not utilize empiricism. Because science and empiricism are limited in actual information gathering processes which are foundational to science, but do not need science to operate.

E.g. science needs philosophy, logistics, psychology, sociology, language and even art, but those things operate without science.

I have been somewhat lax in that for my own expediency I am using terms of art from traditional philosophy formed within a paradigm I am trying to challenge. In that way, I have most certainly pulled in all sorts of definitional limitations and restrictions traditionally associated with these terms to which I do not necessarily subscribe. Be that as it may, we will stick with the use of empiricism and your definition of it.

You say that most of psychology and sociology do not use empiricism, and by extension I also assume "science" (whatever we may mean by that term). What then, in your opinion, does science-free psychology and sociology look like, and why would we have trust in science-free psychology and sociology?

Logistics (I might say Logic) and language are abstract analytic systems that are not analogous to psychology and sociology so I won't address them specifically here.

I covered my views on history a few posts earlier.

Lastly, I will simply reiterate my position stated elsewhere in this thread and on RF that science *is* philosophy.

Empiricism is not equivalent to memory and experience, nor logic and reason. It utilizes those things but specifically, yes, in first person. Anything that cannot be experienced first hand, and tested by others first hand, is by definition not empirical information. Utilizing subjective witness information is non-empirical. But being non-empirical does not mean useless.

I agree that subjective witness information is useful. Subjective experience and subjective attitude are objective phenomena of the subject. The subject objectively has the feelings that they have, their mental experience. Science provides the mechanisms by which we demarcate between what of the subjects thoughts correspond actual real things external to the subject, what are useful abstract constructs, and those things that are simply manifestations of the subjects mind.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Empiricism is only a fraction of how information is gathered, and it specifically, definitively DISCLUDES second-hand information.
OK. But I defined what I mean by empirical knowledge, which includes everything learned experientially, including subjective knowledge. If you'd like to give that a different name, I'm fine with that, but whatever one calls the common and personal knowledge one acquires in the course of a lifetime, these are the only ideas one possesses that deserve to be called knowledge if knowledge is to mean more than simply what one has chosen to believe.
You cannot empirically verify my autism, for instance.
To the extent that that is true, that knowledge is unavailable to me. What I can know is that you claim to be autistic, which means you probably are correct since I don't see you as somebody who would make that claim falsely. If I were more knowledgeable about the condition and could interact with you directly over an extended period of time, I might come to the same conclusion as you have. If I knew that qualified professionals agreed with you, then I would know that you are probably autistic. However much knowledge I have on that or any other topic comes from experience, which is what I mean by empiricism.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Hmmm. It is all thought process as you acknowledge in the second half of your response. It is therefore not about separating the thought from the observer, but distinguishing what exactly the thought represents. All thoughts are real events/occurrences. Is the thought solely a creation of the CNS itself or is it a valid compilation/interpretation of sensory information? That ability to demarcate requires empiricism. It also requires empiricism to verify whether thoughts not generated from external sensory information are thoughts that remain consistent with, or comport with, the real world external to the self.
All your comments keep presupposing that whatever is causing the sensory input is the "real world" while whatever we make of it conceptually is not. But perception IS conception, and conception IS perception. The sensory input AND the cognitive conceptualization that results are all the same phenomenon. And they are all equally 'real' and valid. An inaccurate conceptualization of that sensory input is just as real and valid as an accurate conceptualization of it is. It's just less functional in terms of our ability to manipulate our circumstances. I understand that ability to manipulate our circumstances is important to us, but it does not define truth, nor does it define reality, as you and the other materialists here continually seem to insist.
 

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
All your comments keep presupposing that whatever is causing the sensory input is the "real world" while whatever we make of it conceptually is not. But perception IS conception, and conception IS perception. The sensory input AND the cognitive conceptualization that results are all the same phenomenon. And they are all equally 'real' and valid. An inaccurate conceptualization of that sensory input is just as real and valid as an accurate conceptualization of it is. It's just less functional in terms of our ability to manipulate our circumstances. I understand that ability to manipulate our circumstances is important to us, but it does not define truth, nor does it define reality, as you and the other materialists here continually seem to insist.

<chuckling> Look, I don't disagree that *whatever* we sense and cognate is an actual, real event. I think my comments reflect that. You seem to want to categorize delusion, hallucination, illusions, or even self-deception as simply "less functional" but still valid (more valid?). If seeing things in those terms gives you peace, then so be it. Yet improvements in perception that actually reflect what is going on in the world external to the biological organism result in improved survivability. That means there is an external world that operates in a predictable and knowable way an perceiving the world accurately makes a difference. I cannot fathom why you would insist on arguing for preserving an inaccurate or wholly imaginary perception of reality. It doesn't make sense to me.

As to what defines "truth" or "reality", I'm not even going to go there. We won't be talking about the same thing.
 
Top