Who here is enlightened?

[Sunstone]

I don't think we disagree, but if we do, we do. I think the path to enlightenment does involve hard work, though. Continuing with your breeze analogy, the goal would be to get the breeze constantly flowing, not just occasional wisps. They're nice in that they at least let you know there is a breeze.

Perhaps the breeze is always blowing and our windows are just sometimes shut. In which case the goal would be to keep them ever open.

But I see we have a lot in common when it comes to how we view this thing called "enlightenment". Whatever differences between us merely spice the conversation.

 

[Vinayaka]

Perhaps the breeze is always blowing and our windows are just sometimes shut.

I've heard that said too, in Hindu terminology ... "You're already Self-Realised.
(I view 'enlightenment as more the Buddhist equivalent of the Hindu westernised Self-Realisation, which in Sanskrit is nirvikalpa samadhi) You just don't know it."

But the terminology is quite irrelevant. So it's a matter of discovering what is already there.

I am also like you that I speak with no certainty about it all.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

I fail to comprehend what you mean by 'back then'? I also think we could be talking about different definitions of enlightenment, in which case the whole discussion won't likely bear fruit.

In the times of Buddha, or even Jesus.

 

[Sunstone]

I am also like you that I speak with no certainty about it all.

What do you make of what the Zen Buddhists call makyo? Are you familiar with the term? I was once told what the Sanskrit equivalent of it is, but I have forgotten now.

 

[Vinayaka]

What do you make of what the Zen Buddhists call makyo? Are you familiar with the term? I was once told what the Sanskrit equivalent of it is, but I have forgotten now.

According to Wiki, it's a form of maya, to do with illusion. Is that what you are referring to?

 

[Vinayaka]

In the times of Buddha, or even Jesus.

I don't view it any differently than today in terms of enlightenment, who is, who isn't, the definitions, etc. I don't see the historical time factor as being particularly relevant. Taking cultural boundaries into consideration, Tirumular would have been my 'enlightened one'.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

I don't view it any differently than today in terms of enlightenment, who is, who isn't, the definitions, etc. I don't see the historical time factor as being particularly relevant. Taking cultural boundaries into consideration, Tirumular would have been my 'enlightened one'.

Ah okay. It's just I wonder if what people call enlightenment might have been some forms of savant autism.

 

[Sunstone]

According to Wiki, it's a form of maya, to do with illusion. Is that what you are referring to?

Yes, although the word I was given for it was somewhat different than maya. Or perhaps it meant the same thing as maya but was just a different language than Sanskrit, as I supposed.

At any rate, makyo, so far as I understand them, are paranormal experiences such as clairvoyance. The monks distinguish two kinds of makyo: Those that are genuine illusions, and those that are real enough. In both cases they regard them as obstacles to enlightenment -- apparently because it is so easy for someone who experiences one of them to become attached to it. For instance, you have a vision of the future which might or might not prove true, but in either case you now have something that your ego identifies with: "I am the monk who sees the future! Look at me! I must be special!"

I have become increasingly interested in these things and the role they might play in hindering or preventing enlightenment. So I was wondering if you had any thoughts about them? If I'm not mistaken, the monks say the best thing to do is to ignore them, if you can. Forget you ever had one. But I meet people now and then who do anything but ignore them and -- just as the monks predict -- these people seem to me trapped by them. Sometimes they are even obsessed with the experiences they've had. Does any of that make any sense to you?

 

[Vinayaka]

Ah okay. It's just I wonder if what people call enlightenment might have been some forms of savant autism.

I definitely think not. Savant autism is unusual though, but generally it's in one area of mind, so it seems like that's more like getting really focused in a particular level or area of consciousness.

 

[Sunstone]

I would describe the mystical experience as what happens when subject/object perception abruptly ends while some form of experiencing yet continues.

By subject/object perception, I mean our normal day to day way of perceiving the world. Normally, our way of perceiving the world distinguishes between subject and object, between what is me and what is not me. For instance, I look at the plate on my desk and am aware that the plate is not me. That I am distinct from it.

But it seems at times that this distinction, this way of perceiving the world, abruptly comes to an end. In that moment, experiencing might in some sense continue, although there is no longer a subject doing the experiencing and an object being experienced. When that happens, one has the mystical experience. The experience that, depending perhaps on how intense or lasting it is, is possibly a fleeting preliminary experience of enlightenment, or a full blow experience of enlightenment. It might be characterized as an experience of oneness.

Of course, this merely represents my guesswork.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

I definitely think not. Savant autism is unusual though, but generally it's in one area of mind, so it seems like that's more like getting really focused in a particular level or area of consciousness.

So enlightenment is all of consciousness?

 

[Vinayaka]

If I'm not mistaken, the monks say the best thing to do is to ignore them, if you can. Forget you ever had one.

Yes, this is my Guru's teaching as well. It's getting side-tracked off into something that isn't all that relevant to enlightenment. so even on a personal note, I try to follow that. Same goes for dreams.

 

[Sunstone]

Yes, this is my Guru's teaching as well. It's getting side-tracked off into something that isn't all that relevant to enlightenment. so even on a personal note, I try to follow that. Same goes for dreams.

Thanks!

 

[Vinayaka]

So enlightenment is all of consciousness?

I have no idea what enlightenment is because I'm not enlightened.

 

[Vinayaka]

Thanks!

No. Thank you. It was an enlightening conversation.

 

[Sunstone]

No. Thank you. It was an enlightening conversation.

I feel the same way. I've been learning from you.

 

[Thief]

I see multiple expressions.
Biological.
Intellectual.
Spiritual.

The one that counts will be the one that allows your surviving your last breath.

One thing to be smart in this life.
Another thing altogether to stand before the angelic and They agree.

So I say.

 

[InformedIgnorance]

I beleive that doesn't make you enlightened but only reveals that you have discovered the reality that you are in darkness.

So you do not consider shining a light to recognise this 'darkness' to being enlightened in comparison to not knowing that the darkness is there? Without knowing the darknness is there how exactly do you believe that one can bring light to bear on it and reveal what lies within?

Enlightenment is not a single step, nor even a straight path, it is a journey by which one obtains greater comprehension of themselves, their surroundings of reality itself. When one does not even recognise that the darkness is there, the only journey one takes is in the very small area that one already occupies, the comforting circle of the familiar the narrow confines that you stumble about in - not realizing that you live in darkness.

 

[Sha'irullah]

The true quality of all enlightened people is their lack of sanity. I qualify on this level .

Truthfully I doubt anyone is enlightened as being enlightened to me would be an endless endeavor with the seeking of truth and knowledge. There is no end to it

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram leilaniana ji :namaste

....this is where I am at now. From a personal spiritual climb to bliss and the fall afterward of knowing. The apple has been eaten. I feel now like angry sad buddha. It may be delusional of itself to know so surely I was at a place so confident that the place I am at now does not exist. but it does and I am. It is the rabbit hole.

excuse me this paragraph perplexes me a little ? .. you have imputed anger and saddness upon a buddha which is some what of a contradiction in terms , buddha (denoting a fully enlightened one) implies one in full realisation , full realisation is the state of knowing and understanding all phenomena a buddha is not sad or angry he exists in a state of bliss , yes of course he sees the suffering of individul beings but he is not disturbed to the extent of anger or sadness he is joyfull in that he sees and may grant the blessing of the wisdom that removes all ignorance .

imagine if you will the parent of a child who is because of its age is in ignorance of worldly matters , the parent is not angry or sad at the childs ignorance , infact the parent derives joy from instructing the child , the parent understands the condition of a child and does not expect full cognizance from that child , why would he ?

likewise a buddha is not sad he understands the nature of conditioned life .

this place or state of mind you have glimpsed is a revalation , a shaft of light which for a moment illuminated darkness , then you know that there is more than this to which you have now returned , but there is no need to attatch to it or greve its passing it is there , it encompases everything , but just like the child we are growing in our understanding , and during that period of growing in understanding we are discovering new things and learning to put them into perspective and every day experiencing fresh glimpses of reality , enlightenment is not the glimpse of another state of being , enlightenment is residing in that reality on a perminant basis , enlightenment is full knowledge of all reality , full knowledge of the true nature if all phenomena .enlightenment as also not disturbed by ignorance as enlightenment understands its transitory nature .