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[joeboonda]

Well, considering that you can't get much earlier than this document, i would suggest that the early Christians thought quite differently to you and that this concentration entirely on the sacrifice of Christ is a much later development.

I'm not saying that the crucifixion and resurrection weren't very important to these early Christians, but it seems clear from the Didache, and the Gospels themselves, that the rules set out in the Didache were the first step, the foundation of Christianity.

Does the Didache, whether it was written by the apostles or by an early bishop of the church, place trust in God's grace first on the list?
No, and from this we can surmise that to the earliest Christians it was behaviour, and following the teachings of Jesus that were the priority, God's grace was then avaliable to those who tried to follow these teachings as best they could.

Concentration on the sacrifice of Christ was a much later development??? You have got to be kidding me! That is the MAIN message of the Bible! And you have it completely backward, Grace is available to all who see their sinful condition and trust in Christ that He paid for all their sins and gave them His righteousness in place of their own filthy rags righteousness. THEN, with the help of the Holy Spirit within us we grow in grace, as babes in Christ, and go on to maturity AFTER we have been saved. We never reach complete 'sinlessness' or Christ-likeness in this life time, for He completes that work in us, at the ressurrection/rapture when our bodies are changed from vile, corrupt, mortal to glorified, incorrupt, immortal bodies. This is what the Bible says. Those who depend on their works to 'earn' heaven will not make it! Only by faith alone in Christ alone, repenting from dead works, and simply believing in Christ will one be saved. In John, Christ says "He that believeth on me shall be saved." Over and over and over and over and over. This is the way. We repent of one sin to be saved, the sin of unbelief, for he that believes is not condemned, but he that does not believe, Christ said, is condemned already. We come to Christ just as we are, we believe in Him and BAM we are saved, glory to God! Then, He begins His work in us, and we grow, some better than others. He said to seek our treasure in Heaven, we are saved UNTO good works, not by them. Some will have a greater reward in Heaven than others, but all who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Concentration on the sacrifice of Christ was a much later development??? You have got to be kidding me! That is the MAIN message of the Bible!

I argee - the suffering and victory of Christ is the primary message of Christianity - as a model for appropriate behavior.

And all this stuff, I think would be completely foreign to most of the early church, aside from those who both had access to and memorized the epistle to the Romans:

And you have it completely backward, Grace is available to all who see their sinful condition and trust in Christ that He paid for all their sins and gave them His righteousness in place of their own filthy rags righteousness. THEN, with the help of the Holy Spirit within us we grow in grace, as babes in Christ, and go on to maturity AFTER we have been saved. We never reach complete 'sinlessness' or Christ-likeness in this life time, for He completes that work in us, at the ressurrection/rapture when our bodies are changed from vile, corrupt, mortal to glorified, incorrupt, immortal bodies. This is what the Bible says. Those who depend on their works to 'earn' heaven will not make it! Only by faith alone in Christ alone, repenting from dead works, and simply believing in Christ will one be saved. In John, Christ says "He that believeth on me shall be saved." Over and over and over and over and over. This is the way. We repent of one sin to be saved, the sin of unbelief, for he that believes is not condemned, but he that does not believe, Christ said, is condemned already. We come to Christ just as we are, we believe in Him and BAM we are saved, glory to God! Then, He begins His work in us, and we grow, some better than others. He said to seek our treasure in Heaven, we are saved UNTO good works, not by them. Some will have a greater reward in Heaven than others, but all who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Wow, i'd never heard of that before.

But, then (after i did a little research) it seems that Irenaeus reports this information, and i personally don't trust a lot of what that man has to say.

Tertullian and Hippolytus also preserved the tradition that Marcion was excommunicated for raping a virgin. It's a unified tradition.

 

[sojourner]

This may be true Joeboonda but it is hardly uncommon nor unvirtuous to find people, including Christians, more concerned about alleviating the suffering of others than their own personal salvation. Perhaps the reason the NT places personal salvation at the forefront is not because God views it as more important but because the writers assumed man to have a selfish nature and hoped that the 2nd "less important" goal would follows as a result.

The whole point of the good news and the whole work of grace is to alleviate the cause of our worry and fixation on death. We now don't have to spend time taking care of our spiritual disposition, because grace is real. We've been taken care of. Now we can spend our time loving God and loving others, as we've been commanded to do, building the relationship of the Body of Christ.

The point of Christianity isn't largely about "what happens to me when I die?" It's rather more about "what happens to us (all humanity) when we are in right relationship?" The Didachae shows us the basics of how to begin doing that.

 

[joeboonda]

Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: and the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: and the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.​

Those are the teachings of some Christians, but not the teachings of all Christians, and not the teachings of Jesus.

Good verse! And what were 'these sayings of mine', we are to keep? Look at the verse before this one:

7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
(King James Bible, Matthew)

We have here people who did 'many wonderful works', and Jesus tells them to DEPART from me! He calls them workers of iniquity! Why? Because they tried to WORK for their salvation, they taught this to other people as well! They did these works 'in thy name', yet they counted on their works to save them and not Christ. They asked why they could not go to Heaven, saying look at all these WORKS that WE have done, believing those would save them and THEY DO NOT! Christ gets all the glory, we are undeserving, sin-stained sinners compared to almighty God, and we NEED Christ's righteousness freely imputed unto us, we NEED His DEATH to pay in full all our sins, or we must pay the debt ourselves. This is the only way, works follow salvation, they in no way cause it, God WILL NOT be a debtor to ANY man, we are justified by faith, evidence of that is works, they are a result of salvation. This is very clearly taught all through the Bible. What are the saying of His? He said BELIEVE IN ME!!!

 

[joeboonda]

I argee - the suffering and victory of Christ is the primary message of Christianity - as a model for appropriate behavior.

I agree with the first part of the sentence, not the last. He died as a "model of appropriate behavior? That is NOT why He died and you know that. He died because we got ourselves in a hole and he had to get us out. He died to pay for our sins so we don't have to. He died to save us, period. We either accept the free gift He offers, letting us place all our sins on Him, and giving us His righteousness in place of our own, or we don't. This is the gospel message He told us to tell the world, that he suffered, died, was buried and rose again to pay for all the sins of all the world, once and for all.

 

[James the Persian]

I agree with the first part of the sentence, not the last. He died as a "model of appropriate behavior? That is NOT why He died and you know that. He died because we got ourselves in a hole and he had to get us out. He died to pay for our sins so we don't have to. He died to save us, period. We either accept the free gift He offers, letting us place all our sins on Him, and giving us His righteousness in place of our own, or we don't. This is the gospel message He told us to tell the world, that he suffered, died, was buried and rose again to pay for all the sins of all the world, once and for all.

Funny, but I don't see that message in either the Gospels or the early Fathers of the Church. This doctrine, substitutionary atonement, is a much later and peculiarly western interpretation of the salvation offered by Christ and one which concentrates overly much on the Crucifixion and far too little on the rest of the Incarnation. I don't doubt that it is possible to interpret the Gospels in this way but there are other, older and far more satisfactory interpretations than this one. I'd suggest reading On the Incarnation by St. Athanasios for an understanding of the early (centuries earlier than substitutionary atonement) soteriology of the Church, but I doubt you'd take me up on it given your clearly sola scripturalist beliefs (not that you can get substitutionary atonement from adherence to the Bible alone).

Just in case you're willing to surprise me, though, you can find the text online here:
http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/history/ath-inc.htm

James

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I agree with the first part of the sentence, not the last. He died as a "model of appropriate behavior? That is NOT why He died and you know that. He died because we got ourselves in a hole and he had to get us out. He died to pay for our sins so we don't have to. He died to save us, period. We either accept the free gift He offers, letting us place all our sins on Him, and giving us His righteousness in place of our own, or we don't. This is the gospel message He told us to tell the world, that he suffered, died, was buried and rose again to pay for all the sins of all the world, once and for all.

The way of the cross is the only way that we can keep the commandments of Christ, which is the way that he said that we love him.

We cannot be a disciple unless we take up our cross.

We cannot turn the other cheek, give to anyone who asks, be poor in spirit, accept persecution, provide for our nieghbors, resist temptation, or forgive unless we deny ourselves, take up the cross, and die.

As Bonhoeffer said:

[SIZE=-1]"When Christ calls a man, he bids him come and die."[/SIZE]

 

[joeboonda]

Funny, but I don't see that message in either the Gospels or the early Fathers of the Church. This doctrine, substitutionary atonement, is a much later and peculiarly western interpretation of the salvation offered by Christ and one which concentrates overly much on the Crucifixion and far too little on the rest of the Incarnation. I don't doubt that it is possible to interpret the Gospels in this way but there are other, older and far more satisfactory interpretations than this one. I'd suggest reading On the Incarnation by St. Athanasios for an understanding of the early (centuries earlier than substitutionary atonement) soteriology of the Church, but I doubt you'd take me up on it given your clearly sola scripturalist beliefs (not that you can get substitutionary atonement from adherence to the Bible alone).

Just in case you're willing to surprise me, though, you can find the text online here:
http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/history/ath-inc.htm

James

That is strange indeed, for it is the central theme of the actual Bible. I enjoy C.S. Lewis' writing, he wrote the intro to that 'On the Incarnation'. I read some, but it is very long, perhaps a few short quotes would be helpful. The Bible is very simple, straight-forward and clear, it states that Jesus had to die for our sins and if we believe in Him, that his death was enough, that God was satisfied as Isaiah writes, then we have eternal life.

 

[joeboonda]

The way of the cross is the only way that we can keep the commandments of Christ, which is the way that he said that we love him.

We cannot be a disciple unless we take up our cross.

We cannot turn the other cheek, give to anyone who asks, be poor in spirit, accept persecution, provide for our nieghbors, resist temptation, or forgive unless we deny ourselves, take up the cross, and die.

As Bonhoeffer said:

[SIZE=-1]"When Christ calls a man, he bids him come and die."[/SIZE]

Yes, to be a good disciple of Christ one must do these things, but not to 'earn' salvation, for salvation is a free gift.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Yes, to be a good disciple of Christ one must do these things, but not to 'earn' salvation, for salvation is a free gift.

Yet one cannot be saved without being a disciple.

 

[joeboonda]

That sounds like 'Lordship Salvation' to me, a doctrine I absolutely reject. Salvation is a free gift, what about a free gift people don't understand is beyond me. It is of God, not of us, we can only accept it. If we do anything more than that to try to add to it, it is no longer a gift, but a debt, and God will not have that. Once a person accepts this free gift, they are babes in Christ, growing in grace, and this is where discipleship comes in, after the fact of salvation. After we are saved, freely, by the undeserved, unmerited favor of God, by simple child-like faith believing, then He begins His work in us, molding us and shaping us into His image. This is where taking up our cross comes in, after salvation. The more we yield to Him, the more we grow, the more our heart becomes the good soil and we produce good fruit. Then comes the day when we will be ressurrected/raptured, and in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, we shall be changed, we shall be like Him, immortal, incorruptible, in changed glorified bodies.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

That sounds like 'Lordship Salvation' to me, a doctrine I absolutely reject.

What the heck is that?

 

[roli]

http://reluctant-messenger.com/didache.htm

The above link is to the Didache, the text possibly originated from an early Apostolic council - the absolute basics of the faith.

Essentially the document is an instruction leaflet for new converts of the first century, it clearly sets out how someone must act and what sacraments they must take part in to be a member of the Christian community.

There is little information about theology, christology, revelation or prophecy - in fact they are deliberately left out. This is simply the basics of Christian conduct with a Second Coming prophecy at the end, which may well be a later interpolation as it doesn't really gel with the rest of the text.

How many of today's Christians follow all the rules laid out in the Didache? Do you?

This article for one thing is from a non-canonical literature perspective contrary to the bible which was the very basis and guidelines for the original Holy scriptures(66 books)
The second thing is that there is no mention of Jesus directly,they sound like good moral teachings and they do line up with the word of God but when you remove the name Jesus Christ from such writings as the Didache then you have just another teaching with no power or Glory given to him.
A christian is one who follows the footsteps of Jesus Christ.

 

[Halcyon]

That sounds like 'Lordship Salvation' to me, a doctrine I absolutely reject. Salvation is a free gift, what about a free gift people don't understand is beyond me. It is of God, not of us, we can only accept it. If we do anything more than that to try to add to it, it is no longer a gift, but a debt, and God will not have that. Once a person accepts this free gift, they are babes in Christ, growing in grace, and this is where discipleship comes in, after the fact of salvation. After we are saved, freely, by the undeserved, unmerited favor of God, by simple child-like faith believing, then He begins His work in us, molding us and shaping us into His image. This is where taking up our cross comes in, after salvation. The more we yield to Him, the more we grow, the more our heart becomes the good soil and we produce good fruit. Then comes the day when we will be ressurrected/raptured, and in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, we shall be changed, we shall be like Him, immortal, incorruptible, in changed glorified bodies.

Then why the Didache?
Why include int he gosples all that irrelevant stuff that encompasses Christ's teaching, when the only important bit is at the very end?

If God molds the "saved" into good people after they accept Christ, why on earth did the early Church bother to write documents listing what they expect of new converts?

It seems to me that your version of Christianity is the lazy man's version, the version for those that want to believe like a Christian, but don't want to live like a Christian.

 

[Halcyon]

This article for one thing is from a non-canonical literature perspective contrary to the bible which was the very basis and guidelines for the original Holy scriptures(66 books)
The second thing is that there is no mention of Jesus directly,they sound like good moral teachings and they do line up with the word of God but when you remove the name Jesus Christ from such writings as the Didache then you have just another teaching with no power or Glory given to him.
A christian is one who follows the footsteps of Jesus Christ.

roli, read the Didache, you will find it is mostly quotes straight from the bible.

Also, the 66 books is the protestant bible, it is not the original bible and even if it were, the Didache was only not included because it is basically a summary. No point in repeating yourself five times in one book eh?
There is nothing contrary to the bible, nothing heretical or subversive in the Didache - it's Christian morality condensed.

 

[roli]

A true Christian is one who is born from above (which means born of the spirit)it is an experience brought about by a confession of faith in the finished work of the cross of Jesus Christ.The nature,image and characteristics of Christ is then transferred into out hearts by the Holy Spirit
We then receive God's spirit as a guarantee deposit of what is to come and not just a conceptualization and intellectual belief system we are adopted into the family of God and become one with Him.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
2Cr 5:5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
1Jo 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

 

[Halcyon]

A true Christian is one who is born from above (which means born of the spirit)it is an experience brought about by a confession of faith in the finished work of the cross of Jesus Christ.The nature,image and characteristics of Christ is then transferred into out hearts by the Holy Spirit
We then receive God's spirit as a guarantee deposit of what is to come and not just a conceptualization and intellectual belief system we are adopted into the family of God and become one with Him.

Not according to the founders of the faith.

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
2Cr 5:5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
1Jo 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

All quotes from documents which were not only written later than the Didache, but also do not contradict it or its message.

The Didache doesn't really comment about the nature of forgiveness, spiritual origin or God's preparations. All it is, is a set of guidlines that the early Church fathers expected of new Christian converts. They expected more of their congregations than simple belief, no matter how strong. They expected Christians to adhere to Christ's teachings as well as have faith in him, which when you think about it properly, are one and the same thing.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Not according to the founders of the faith.


All quotes from documents which were not only written later than the Didache, but also do not contradict it or its message.

We can include Paul and John as founders of Christianity...

 

[Halcyon]

We can include Paul and John as founders of Christianity...

Well, Paul obviously - and presumably it is from a roundabout reading of his letters that we get this strange "by grace alone" doctrine.

But John, seriously? The gospel was pretty late compred to the Didache and the synoptics, and who even knows who wrote those letters and revelation. I'd class him more as an 'expander of the faith' (if that makes any sense) rather than a founder like Peter or James.