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[joeboonda]

God forbid is used 27 times in the Bible!!! doh.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

God forbid is used 27 times in the Bible!!! doh.

Where?

 

[joeboonda]

Do you have a Strong's Concordance? Look up forbid, you will see the verses that say God forbid, and some that say Lord forbid. There are 27.

 

[sojourner]

God forbid is used 27 times in the Bible!!! doh.

God forbid!

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Do you have a Strong's Concordance? Look up forbid, you will see the verses that say God forbid, and some that say Lord forbid. There are 27.

Unfortuantely Strongs does not accurately represent what is going on in the text in a literal sense.

For Hebrew, the literal translation is far be it from me and Greek it is may it never become, both with heavy emphasis that is expressed in English, God forbid.

 

[Smoke]

Good verse! And what were 'these sayings of mine', we are to keep? Look at the verse before this one:

7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
(King James Bible, Matthew)

We have here people who did 'many wonderful works', and Jesus tells them to DEPART from me! He calls them workers of iniquity! Why? Because they tried to WORK for their salvation, they taught this to other people as well! They did these works 'in thy name', yet they counted on their works to save them and not Christ. They asked why they could not go to Heaven, saying look at all these WORKS that WE have done, believing those would save them and THEY DO NOT! Christ gets all the glory, we are undeserving, sin-stained sinners compared to almighty God, and we NEED Christ's righteousness freely imputed unto us, we NEED His DEATH to pay in full all our sins, or we must pay the debt ourselves. This is the only way, works follow salvation, they in no way cause it, God WILL NOT be a debtor to ANY man, we are justified by faith, evidence of that is works, they are a result of salvation. This is very clearly taught all through the Bible. What are the saying of His? He said BELIEVE IN ME!!!

Nope. Back up a little more:

Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
​

And compare to Matthew 25.34-45:

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.





​

 

[joeboonda]

These good works FOLLOW salvation, they are a RESULT of salvation, we cannot 'earn' salvation, it is a free gift, by grace through faith:

4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
(King James Bible, Ephesians)
2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
(King James Bible, Galatians)
3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
(King James Bible, Titus)
5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
(King James Bible, Romans)

Romans 4:4 says that God will not be a debtor to any man, no amount of works will save us. Only faith in Christ, accepting the free gift of grace that is from God can any man be saved. We are saved 'unto good works'. If one says He has faith, then we should see works following as a result. A truly born-again person, who is growing in the grace of God to maturity, will begin to produce good fruit in their life. However, man looks at the outward appearance but God looks at the heart, so we should not be too critical of others, but teach them how to walk the Christian walk, not for salvation, but because He saved us. Also, our doctrines can be fruit as well, and if a man teaches false doctrine, teaching people to earn their salvation instead of trusting in the Lord to save them, they will stand before God having trusted in all their works, and God will say 'I never knew you...' Salvation begins and ends with trusting in Christ, period. Good works follow as a result, not from guilt and fear, but out of gratitude, thankfulness, and love for others and our Saviour, because He saved poor, miserable, undeserving sinners such as us.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

These good works FOLLOW salvation, they are a RESULT of salvation, we cannot 'earn' salvation, it is a free gift, by grace through faith:

4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
(King James Bible, Ephesians)
2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
(King James Bible, Galatians)
3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
(King James Bible, Titus)
5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
(King James Bible, Romans)

Romans 4:4 says that God will not be a debtor to any man, no amount of works will save us. Only faith in Christ, accepting the free gift of grace that is from God can any man be saved. We are saved 'unto good works'. If one says He has faith, then we should see works following as a result. A truly born-again person, who is growing in the grace of God to maturity, will begin to produce good fruit in their life. However, man looks at the outward appearance but God looks at the heart, so we should not be too critical of others, but teach them how to walk the Christian walk, not for salvation, but because He saved us. Also, our doctrines can be fruit as well, and if a man teaches false doctrine, teaching people to earn their salvation instead of trusting in the Lord to save them, they will stand before God having trusted in all their works, and God will say 'I never knew you...' Salvation begins and ends with trusting in Christ, period. Good works follow as a result, not from guilt and fear, but out of gratitude, thankfulness, and love for others and our Saviour, because He saved poor, miserable, undeserving sinners such as us.

None of this is secondary to the Didache.

 

[joeboonda]

Guess I got off topic a bit.

 

[xexon]

A true Christian is one who has become a Christ themselves.

True religion is not a group effort, its an individual journey.



x

 

[Sola*5]

One can follow Christ's example and treat people as they want to be treated and not be saved. One can be Baptized a thousand times and no amount of that water save them. Many follow 'some' of Christ's teachings but ignore the real message. The real message He brought was that He was God in the flesh, come to die for our sins and rise the third day, that whoever believes that His death paid for all our sins as and accepts this free gift on faith is no longer under condemnation, but those who do not believe in Him are condemned already. He taught that no man comes to the Father but by Him, by repenting, turning from the sin of unbelief to belief in Christ alone for salvation, for salvation comes not from man, but from God, from Jesus Christ the Lord. All these religions that deny Christ died to pay for our sins, that He did not 'come in the flesh', that He is not God, that follow mans ways, that man thinks they can be saved, or if they believe in Christ, try to add something else they do for salvation, are not truely saved. Man cannot do anything whatsoever to save himself, except accept the gift. Salvation is from God, not man.

You're the man Joe, a baptist brother? :shout

 

[lilithu]

Facsinating -- so unlike the Christians I know.

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."
-- Mahatma Gandhi

 

[kiwimac]

Bit of a stilted translation. There are others.

 

[love]

The law of Moses shows us that we have all come short of the perfection that God desires of mankind. But Jesus Christ came to show us there is another way. Through repentance and belief that He is our Savior there is another path to God. Until you beieve this in your heart you have no idea what a Christian is.

 

[athanasius]

Well, it was nice, but it said nothing of how to actually become truly, a true Christian. To become born-again one must repent of their unbelief in Christ, and trust alone in Christ, that He paid for all our sins and imputes His righteousness unto us in place of our own. One who has admitted they are a sinner, their works of righteousness are as filthy rags, and who turn from their way to God's way and accept by faith the free gift by trusting in Christ are the only true Christians. They may not be perfect, but are forgiven, growing in grace, already possessing eternal life, never to come back into condemnation, because of not what they did, but what God did on the cross.

The Didache does speak of how to become born again and saved, it speaks of sacramental water baptism which what the early christian fathers all understood it(Born Again) to mean. Why does it have to have a late protestant formulation of what it means to be born again or saved? Answer. Because its a early Catholic document and not a late protestant one.

I hope that helps.

 

[astarath]

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."
-- Mahatma Gandhi

I find that this is the essence of this discussion. Rather then Christians following the example of the Christ to often we merely condone our actions in sin by the testament that Christ will redeem us of our sin.

But for me Christ told us what will happen to those who will shout Lord, Lord but do not show Christ in their works. He will quite simply ignore them and say he doesn't know, just as they do when they chose not to follow the loving tenets of the lord.

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

I thought the piece was absolutely beautiful. It was full of wisdom and gives the causes of spiritual illness. It give account of who is a true prophet and who is a false one. It was not unlike what muslims are called towards. I'm not a christian but I like to think I follow that pretty closely.

Hope you don't mind a non-christians input on this matter.

 

[astarath]

a brother in God is always welcome

 

[James the Persian]

Well, some of us do take the Didache very seriously. For instance, it's the reason (or at least probably the earliest document in which the rule is written) that we all fast on Wednesdays and Fridays. It's one of those extra-canonical works that is very much considered inspired and useful in Orthodoxy.

James

 

[James the Persian]

After all, could an Aramaic speaking Galilean fisherman compose the Gospel of John in Greek, with all its multiple meanings and word play?

I'm sorry to resurect this ancient thread, but I just noticed this. Are you aware that the Jews of the first century commonly referred to Galilee as 'Galilee of the Gentiles'? Why? Because it was, and had been since long before, so heavily Hellenised. It's one of the few places in the region where Greek was a serious contender with Aramaic as the lingua franca and it's actually a good bet that anyone from the area would have been quite familiar with the language. Many would almost certainly have been entirely fluent in both Greek and Aramaic. What I find ironic about your comment is that the emphasis is entirely yours and yet the word you have emphasised is one the militates entirely against the point you were trying to make.

I have no difficulty at all believing that St. John wrote both the Gospel and the Apocalypse. Not only was he born and raised in a heavily Hellenised area of palestine, he then left and preached in Ephesus (which was Greek) and was exiled to Paphos (where he wrote the Apocalypse) so he had plenty of opportunity to practice his Greek in the company of Greeks, particularly given the fact that his writings were actually quite late. I have no idea why there is this fashion to question the authorship of Biblical texts based on suppositions like 'Jewish fisherman wouldn't have spoken Greek', but the evidence rarely bears them out.

James