Who is Baháʼu'lláh?

[Terry Sampson]

So what is the real Baha'i belief on this?

• Bahá'í Reference Library - Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, Pages 20-21
  • Resurrection, Paradise, and Hell
    
    An important part of the Báb’s teaching is His explanation of the terms Resurrection, Day of Judgment, Paradise and Hell. By the Resurrection is meant, He said, the appearance of a new Manifestation of the Sun of Truth. The raising of the dead means the spiritual awakening of those who are asleep in the graves of ignorance, heedlessness and lust. The Day of Judgment is the Day of the new Manifestation, by acceptance or rejection of Whose Revelation the sheep are separated from the goats, for the sheep know the voice of the Good Shepherd and follow Him. Paradise is the joy of knowing and loving God, as revealed through His Manifestation, thereby attaining to the utmost perfection of which one is capable, and, after death, obtaining entrance to the Kingdom of God and the life everlasting. Hell is simply deprivation of that knowledge of God with consequent failure to attain divine perfection, and loss of the Eternal Favor. He definitely declared that these terms have no real meaning apart from this; and that the prevalent ideas regarding the resurrection of the material body, a material heaven and hell, and the like, are mere figments of the imagination. He taught that man has a life after death, and that in the afterlife progress towards perfection is limitless.
    

 

[CG Didymus]

• Bahá'í Reference Library - Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, Pages 20-21
  • Resurrection, Paradise, and Hell
    
    An important part of the Báb’s teaching is His explanation of the terms Resurrection, Day of Judgment, Paradise and Hell. By the Resurrection is meant, He said, the appearance of a new Manifestation of the Sun of Truth. The raising of the dead means the spiritual awakening of those who are asleep in the graves of ignorance, heedlessness and lust. The Day of Judgment is the Day of the new Manifestation, by acceptance or rejection of Whose Revelation the sheep are separated from the goats, for the sheep know the voice of the Good Shepherd and follow Him. Paradise is the joy of knowing and loving God, as revealed through His Manifestation, thereby attaining to the utmost perfection of which one is capable, and, after death, obtaining entrance to the Kingdom of God and the life everlasting. Hell is simply deprivation of that knowledge of God with consequent failure to attain divine perfection, and loss of the Eternal Favor. He definitely declared that these terms have no real meaning apart from this; and that the prevalent ideas regarding the resurrection of the material body, a material heaven and hell, and the like, are mere figments of the imagination. He taught that man has a life after death, and that in the afterlife progress towards perfection is limitless.

So if Jesus hasn't been metaphorically raised, then people are still metaphorically in their sin and will be cast into a metaphorical hell? But thank the metaphorical God... for he did metaphorically raise his metaphorical Son from a metaphorical grave to save us from are metaphorical sin.

And, I keep asking, how is that different from just plain out saying that the NT is embellished myths and legends... and that none of it happened?

 

[oldbadger]

• Bahá'í Reference Library - Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, Pages 20-21
  • Resurrection, Paradise, and Hell
    
    An important part of the Báb’s teaching is His explanation of the terms Resurrection, Day of Judgment, Paradise and Hell. By the Resurrection is meant, He said, the appearance of a new Manifestation of the Sun of Truth. The raising of the dead means the spiritual awakening of those who are asleep in the graves of ignorance, heedlessness and lust. The Day of Judgment is the Day of the new Manifestation, by acceptance or rejection of Whose Revelation the sheep are separated from the goats, for the sheep know the voice of the Good Shepherd and follow Him. Paradise is the joy of knowing and loving God, as revealed through His Manifestation, thereby attaining to the utmost perfection of which one is capable, and, after death, obtaining entrance to the Kingdom of God and the life everlasting. Hell is simply deprivation of that knowledge of God with consequent failure to attain divine perfection, and loss of the Eternal Favor. He definitely declared that these terms have no real meaning apart from this; and that the prevalent ideas regarding the resurrection of the material body, a material heaven and hell, and the like, are mere figments of the imagination. He taught that man has a life after death, and that in the afterlife progress towards perfection is limitless.

Hello.
I don't think that Bahai relies too heavily upon the Bab's writings. He was such an aggressive and contentious person that his communications seem to be attenuated at this time.
His followers certainly were not sheepish.

 

[oldbadger]

So if Jesus hasn't been metaphorically raised, then people are still metaphorically in their sin and will be cast into a metaphorical hell? But thank the metaphorical God... for he did metaphorically raise his metaphorical Son from a metaphorical grave to save us from are metaphorical sin.

And, I keep asking, how is that different from just plain out saying that the NT is embellished myths and legends... and that none of it happened?

I don't think that Bahai supports Jesus as being more than a prophet. I can't find the particular piece just now, but hidden deep amongst heavenly nightingales and mystical clouds Bahauallah seems to reject Jesus as more than a prophet.

That is exactly where I entered discussions with Bahais a couple of years ago, after reading this piece which was shown by @loverofhumanity and I supported his post.

 

[Terry Sampson]

I don't think that Bahai relies too heavily upon the Bab's writings.

Fine, ... then here's something written by Abdu’l-Bahá, "Some Answered Questions", No. 23:

• 23: THE RESURRECTION OF CHRIST
  Question.—What is the meaning of Christ’s resurrection after three days?
  Answer.—The resurrections of the Divine Manifestations are not of the body. All Their states, Their conditions, Their acts, the things They have established, Their teachings, Their expressions, Their parables and Their instructions have a spiritual and divine signification, and have no connection with material things. For example, there is the subject of Christ’s coming from heaven: it is clearly stated in many places in the Gospel that the Son of man came from heaven, He is in heaven, and He will go to heaven. So in chapter 6, verse 38, of the Gospel of John it is written: “For I came down from heaven”; and also in verse 42 we find: “And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?” Also in John, chapter 3, verse 13: “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”
  Observe that it is said, “The Son of man is in heaven,” while at that time Christ was on earth. Notice also that it is said that Christ came from heaven, though He came from the womb of Mary, and His body was born of Mary. It is clear, then, that when it is said that the Son of man is come from heaven, this has not an outward but an inward signification; it is a spiritual, not a material, fact. The meaning is that though, apparently, Christ was born from the womb of Mary, in reality He came from heaven, from the center of the Sun of Reality, from the Divine World, and the Spiritual Kingdom. And as it has become evident that Christ came from the spiritual heaven of the Divine Kingdom, therefore, His disappearance under the earth for three days has an inner signification and is not an outward fact. In the same way, His resurrection from the interior of the earth is also symbolical; it is a spiritual and divine fact, and not material; and likewise His ascension to heaven is a spiritual and not material ascension.
  Beside these explanations, it has been established and proved by science that the visible heaven is a limitless area, void and empty, where innumerable stars and planets revolve.
  Therefore, we say that the meaning of Christ’s resurrection is as follows: the disciples were troubled and agitated after the martyrdom of Christ. The Reality of Christ, which signifies His teachings, His bounties, His perfections and His spiritual power, was hidden and concealed for two or three days after His martyrdom, and was not resplendent and manifest. No, rather it was lost, for the believers were few in number and were troubled and agitated. The Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body; and when after three days the disciples became assured and steadfast, and began to serve the Cause of Christ, and resolved to spread the divine teachings, putting His counsels into practice, and arising to serve Him, the Reality of Christ became resplendent and His bounty appeared; His religion found life; His teachings and His admonitions became evident and visible. In other words, the Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body until the life and the bounty of the Holy Spirit surrounded it.
  Such is the meaning of the resurrection of Christ, and this was a true resurrection. But as the clergy have neither understood the meaning of the Gospels nor comprehended the symbols, therefore, it has been said that religion is in contradiction to science, and science in opposition to religion, as, for example, this subject of the ascension of Christ with an elemental body to the visible heaven is contrary to the science of mathematics. But when the truth of this subject becomes clear, and the symbol is explained, science in no way contradicts it; but, on the contrary, science and the intelligence affirm it.

It seems clear to me that the official position of the Baha'i, whether the adherents of that faith know it themselves or not, whether they believe it themselves or not, or whether they say it themselves or not, is that Jesus' resurrection and ascension was hocus-pocus, metaphorical, allegorical, symbolical, "spiritualized", Baha'i pap..

The problem, IMO, is that so much of what is said--by Baha'i and non-Baha'i alike--about "spirit(s)" and "spiritual" matters exhibits an inability or unwillingness, i.e. a failure, to grapple with the issue of the materiality of spirit(s).

Suppose, for a moment, that--as I believe--the Cosmos consists of stuff moving through space over time, and that it is boundless and without beginning or end. What are the smallest parts of the stuff that's moving? In such a Cosmos, things that have mass greater than 0 kg. are--in my book--material things. Space, as I use the term, has no mass Folks who talk about the spirit, as if it has no mass, don't, IMO, make any sense. The only things that don't have mass are space, time, and imagination. So, .. if a spirit does not consist completely of space, time, or imagination, AND if it doesn't have mass, what the heck is it?

 

[danieldemol]

AND if it doesn't have mass, what the heck is it?

If spirits had mass we could weigh them. Do you put on weight when you are visited by the Holy Spirit?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The only things that don't have mass are space, time, and imagination. So, .. if a spirit does not consist completely of space, time, or imagination, AND if it doesn't have mass, what the heck is it?

Luckily the Baha'i writings have given us more on this subject.

There are 5 levels of Spirit in this material world.

"... The Bahá’í writings use the word “spirit” to refer to certain powers and potentialities that pervade the various kingdoms of existence..."

Degrees of Spirit | What Bahá’ís Believe

Regards Tony

 

[oldbadger]

Fine, ... then here's something written by Abdu’l-Bahá, "Some Answered Questions", No. 23:

• 23: THE RESURRECTION OF CHRIST
  Question.—What is the meaning of Christ’s resurrection after three days?
  Answer.—The resurrections of the Divine Manifestations are not of the body. All Their states, Their conditions, Their acts, the things They have established, Their teachings, Their expressions, Their parables and Their instructions have a spiritual and divine signification, and have no connection with material things. For example, there is the subject of Christ’s coming from heaven: it is clearly stated in many places in the Gospel that the Son of man came from heaven, He is in heaven, and He will go to heaven. So in chapter 6, verse 38, of the Gospel of John it is written: “For I came down from heaven”; and also in verse 42 we find: “And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?” Also in John, chapter 3, verse 13: “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”
  Observe that it is said, “The Son of man is in heaven,” while at that time Christ was on earth. Notice also that it is said that Christ came from heaven, though He came from the womb of Mary, and His body was born of Mary. It is clear, then, that when it is said that the Son of man is come from heaven, this has not an outward but an inward signification; it is a spiritual, not a material, fact. The meaning is that though, apparently, Christ was born from the womb of Mary, in reality He came from heaven, from the center of the Sun of Reality, from the Divine World, and the Spiritual Kingdom. And as it has become evident that Christ came from the spiritual heaven of the Divine Kingdom, therefore, His disappearance under the earth for three days has an inner signification and is not an outward fact. In the same way, His resurrection from the interior of the earth is also symbolical; it is a spiritual and divine fact, and not material; and likewise His ascension to heaven is a spiritual and not material ascension.
  Beside these explanations, it has been established and proved by science that the visible heaven is a limitless area, void and empty, where innumerable stars and planets revolve.
  Therefore, we say that the meaning of Christ’s resurrection is as follows: the disciples were troubled and agitated after the martyrdom of Christ. The Reality of Christ, which signifies His teachings, His bounties, His perfections and His spiritual power, was hidden and concealed for two or three days after His martyrdom, and was not resplendent and manifest. No, rather it was lost, for the believers were few in number and were troubled and agitated. The Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body; and when after three days the disciples became assured and steadfast, and began to serve the Cause of Christ, and resolved to spread the divine teachings, putting His counsels into practice, and arising to serve Him, the Reality of Christ became resplendent and His bounty appeared; His religion found life; His teachings and His admonitions became evident and visible. In other words, the Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body until the life and the bounty of the Holy Spirit surrounded it.
  Such is the meaning of the resurrection of Christ, and this was a true resurrection. But as the clergy have neither understood the meaning of the Gospels nor comprehended the symbols, therefore, it has been said that religion is in contradiction to science, and science in opposition to religion, as, for example, this subject of the ascension of Christ with an elemental body to the visible heaven is contrary to the science of mathematics. But when the truth of this subject becomes clear, and the symbol is explained, science in no way contradicts it; but, on the contrary, science and the intelligence affirm it.

It seems clear to me that the official position of the Baha'i, whether the adherents of that faith know it themselves or not, whether they believe it themselves or not, or whether they say it themselves or not, is that Jesus' resurrection and ascension was hocus-pocus, metaphorical, allegorical, symbolical, "spiritualized", Baha'i pap..

The problem, IMO, is that so much of what is said--by Baha'i and non-Baha'i alike--about "spirit(s)" and "spiritual" matters exhibits an inability or unwillingness, i.e. a failure, to grapple with the issue of the materiality of spirit(s).

Suppose, for a moment, that--as I believe--the Cosmos consists of stuff moving through space over time, and that it is boundless and without beginning or end. What are the smallest parts of the stuff that's moving? In such a Cosmos, things that have mass greater than 0 kg. are--in my book--material things. Space, as I use the term, has no mass Folks who talk about the spirit, as if it has no mass, don't, IMO, make any sense. The only things that don't have mass are space, time, and imagination. So, .. if a spirit does not consist completely of space, time, or imagination, AND if it doesn't have mass, what the heck is it?

Yes. Exactly so.
Bahauallah disguised this mindset well, imo, with his flowery and poetic language.

 

[Terry Sampson]

If spirits had mass we could weigh them. Do you put on weight when you are visited by the Holy Spirit?

(a) Either a spirit has some property that is commonly associated with matter, be it mass, energy, or both; or it does not.
(b) If it does not, the atheists are correct: physical death puts an end to perishable beings and Paul's "imperishable beings" doctrine is nonsense, physical post-death remains dissolve into "stardust", and the entity that I am ceases to exist. In which case, there is no such thing as the afterlife.
(c) If being ceases to be in the grave, Baha'i teaching isn't even close to accurate, much less: relevant, as when it prattles on about the afterlife, to wit:

• Body and Soul Bahá'í Reference Library - Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, Pages 207-209
  
  The Bahá’í teachings with regard to body and soul, and the life after death, are quite in harmony with the results of psychical research. They teach, as we have seen, that death is but a new birth—the escape from the prison of the body into a larger life, and that progress in the afterlife is limitless.
  A large body of scientific evidence has gradually been accumulating which in the opinion of impartial but highly critical investigators is amply sufficient to establish beyond all question the fact of a life after death—of the continued life and activity of the conscious “soul” after the dissolution of the material body. As F. W. H. Myers says in his Human Personality, a work which summarizes many of the investigations of the Psychical Research Society:—
  Observation, experiment, inference, have led many inquirers, of whom I am one, to a belief in direct or telepathic intercommunication, not between the minds of men still on earth only, but between minds or spirits still on earth and spirits departed. Such a discovery opens the doors also to revelation. …
  We have shown that amid much deception and self-deception, fraud and illusion, veritable manifestations do reach us from beyond the grave. …
  By discovery and by revelation certain theses have been provisionally established with regard to such departed souls as we have been able to encounter. First and chiefly, I, at least, see ground to believe that their state is one of endless evolution in wisdom and in love. Their loves of earth persist, and most of all, those highest loves which find their outlet in adoration and worship. … Evil to them seems less a terrible than a slavish thing. It is embodied in no mighty Potentate; rather it forms as isolating madness from which higher spirits strive to free the distorted soul. There needs no chastisement of fire; self-knowledge is man’s punishment and his reward; self-knowledge and the nearness or the aloofness of companion souls. For in that world love is actually self-preservation; the Communion of Saints not only adorns but constitutes the Life Everlasting. nay, from the laws of telepathy it follows that that communion is valid to us here and now. Even now the love of souls departed makes answer to our invocations. Even now our loving memory—love is itself a prayer—supports and strengthens those delivered spirits upon their upward way.
  The measure of agreement between this view, which is founded on careful scientific research, and that of the Bahá’í teachings, is truly remarkable.

And my opinions are the least of your worries. Baha'i nonsense is your bigger problem.

 

[CG Didymus]

I don't think that Bahai relies too heavily upon the Bab's writings.

Yet, most of the prophecies about when Christ would return are about when The Bab declared himself in 1844. So, technically, shouldn't Baha'i be saying that Elijah returned in 1844?

I don't think that Bahai supports Jesus as being more than a prophet. I can't find the particular piece just now, but hidden deep amongst heavenly nightingales and mystical clouds Bahauallah seems to reject Jesus as more than a prophet.

Yeah, I remember one quote that went on and on about how great Jesus was. But, he didn't do the miracles (although, sometimes they do)... he is not God in the flesh (But, like all manifestations, is a perfect reflection of God)... and he didn't rise from the grave (Physically, only in spirit). So again, Baha'is have it both ways. They can say how they believe in Jesus, while at the same time deny anything they want to about Jesus.

 

[oldbadger]

Yet, most of the prophecies about when Christ would return are about when The Bab declared himself in 1844. So, technically, shouldn't Baha'i be saying that Elijah returned in 1844?

Yeah, I remember one quote that went on and on about how great Jesus was. But, he didn't do the miracles (although, sometimes they do)... he is not God in the flesh (But, like all manifestations, is a perfect reflection of God)... and he didn't rise from the grave (Physically, only in spirit). So again, Baha'is have it both ways. They can say how they believe in Jesus, while at the same time deny anything they want to about Jesus.

Yes, to all.........
Every part of Baha'i seems to be double talk.

 

[CG Didymus]

If spirits had mass we could weigh them. Do you put on weight when you are visited by the Holy Spirit?

I felt lighter. Actually, my brother, who was a 7th Day Adventist at the time, climbed up a rock and couldn't get down. After some time, he said he put his trust in God and went for it. He couldn't see where the foothold was but knew he had to let go of his handhold to reach it. He said it felt like an invisible hand held him against the rock until his foot found the foot hold. Now a Baha'i story, a story that I'd expect from Pentecostal Christians and not from a Baha'i. This was a quest speaker, a traveling teacher and she told the story of how she and her driver were out in the desert going to a Navajo village. The dirt road was washed out and she told the driver to back up and floor it. Supposedly the car flew 40 feet in the air. Gravity was defied, or material things made lighter? Or, they both were hallucinating?

 

[danieldemol]

I felt lighter. Actually, my brother, who was a 7th Day Adventist at the time, climbed up a rock and couldn't get down. After some time, he said he put his trust in God and went for it. He couldn't see where the foothold was but knew he had to let go of his handhold to reach it. He said it felt like an invisible hand held him against the rock until his foot found the foot hold. Now a Baha'i story, a story that I'd expect from Pentecostal Christians and not from a Baha'i. This was a quest speaker, a traveling teacher and she told the story of how she and her driver were out in the desert going to a Navajo village. The dirt road was washed out and she told the driver to back up and floor it. Supposedly the car flew 40 feet in the air. Gravity was defied, or material things made lighter? Or, they both were hallucinating?

Sounds like they were telling a good old fashioned fib or embellishment to me

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The dirt road was washed out and she told the driver to back up and floor it. Supposedly the car flew 40 feet in the air. Gravity was defied, or material things made lighter? Or, they both were hallucinating?

Sounds like they were telling a good old fashioned fib or embellishment to me

Or the 400mm washout was embellished by story telling to become 40ft.

Actually where I live, there are many stories of lucky escapes with people making it over over hidden washouts because they were at speed.

But many stories of written off cars as well.

I had a works manager doing flood damage on a road one year. He came into the works depot with both from wheels off alignment by about 30 deg, both rubber tyres smoking.

He had, we guessed and what the evidence provided, at some considerable speed come upon a washout that was over 2.5 mtr wide, (8ft). His front wheels had hit about 300mm (12") down on the far washout face and the car had launched. The next wheel marks were at least 12m (36ft) from that face.

Luckily he hit is square on, not so luckily for the car, it was a write off.

Regards Tony

 

[Terry Sampson]

And, I keep asking, how is that different from just plain out saying that the NT is embellished myths and legends... and that none of it happened?

It ain't.

 

[Dawnofhope]

And that's pretty much all that we agree on with respect to Paul's experiences.

But we do believe in the same Paul, though I accept you may see Baha’is believing in a mythical Paul that’s completely different from the one recorded in the New Testament just as the Jesus of the Quran is viewed as fundamentally different from the Jesus of the New Testament. The difference is we’re now examining exactly the same texts. But perhaps we have a fundamental difference with Paul too. There is the Christian Paul who saw the resurrected Jesus. Then there is the Baha’i Paul who has mystical experiences of Jesus (two are recorded) and Paul describes his experience(s) as having seen the resurrected Jesus.

The Christian Paul relies on 1 Corinthians 15:4-9 taken literally but no definitive event recorded that looks remotely like the experiences of the other apostles. Then the timing where if he did see the resurrected Jesus it was well after the Ascension of Christ and no record of such a monumental event in Paul’s life unless we take Acts of the Apostles 9 and/or 2 Corinthians 12:1-4 figuratively.

Then we have Baha’i Paul who has never actually seen the resurrected Jesus but refers to his mystical experiences and creates a theological narrative where the resurrected Jesus becomes a symbol of hope in what is possible should we follow Jesus. Though Christ’s Teachings we are transformed from the death of our material existence to being born again into the world of spirit to attain eternal life. Further the resurrected Body of Christ comes to symbolise the Church that comes to life through the Holy Spirit after the disciples despair and loss of faith following Christ’s crucifixion.

The mystery to me is why I'm bothering to rehash the same stuff that I wrote to you about earlier, in my post #64, to which you responded:

I’m happy to talk with you but only if its mutual. If you want to cut me loose or have a break don’t respond. I won’t take it personally.

The point IS:

• You don't want to believe that Jesus was "literally resurrected" and "literally ascended in to heaven";

I’m very happy and content with my Baha’i Jesus but I’m open to a compelling argument that a Christian Jesus makes more sense.

You have been told by your Baha'i sources to believe that Paul did not "literally see" the resurrected Jesus; and

Lol. Are you telling me you haven’t been told by your Christian sources that Jesus was literally resurrected? Of course you have as its an essential non-negotiable belief for most Churches.

For the record there’s nothing in the Baha’i writings that refers to Paul not literally seeing the resurrected Jesus (not that I’m aware of). Baha’is are encouraged to study the Bible and unravel the mysteries of the sacred writings ourselves. In Bahá’u’lláh’s Words we should see with our own eyes and not the eyes of others. We should know of our own knowledge and not the knowledge of our neighbour. So Im out on a limb here but its a beautiful place to be.

You are quite content with the metaphor of Jesus' resurrection and ascension.

Yes

While I, on the other hand, believe that Jesus' was literally resurrected from the dead, that he was taken up "into the stratosphere", that Paul--in the presence of other men--saw the resurrected, ascended, and glorified Jesus ... on the road to Damascus, that what blinded him spoke to him, and what he saw and was told by what he saw changed his life. I believe all that because: [1 Corinthians 15:19] "If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied."

Thanks for clarifying that its Paul’s road to Damascus experience that for you is Paul’s encounter with the resurrected Jesus. So where in the text does it say Paul saw Jesus?

IMO, imperishable, prior to his ascension.

Did He have an Imperishable body prior to the crucifixion?

I suspect that some of the failure to recognize the resurrected Jesus would have been due to the unexpected appearance of somebody that, last seen, had been dying or dead on a cross or laid out in a tomb.

I agree. However I suspect the Gospel writers are providing us with some clues that this is a theological as opposed to an historical narrative. There is powerful symbolism in the empty tomb and doubting Thomas who needs to place his hand inside a wound of Jesus. Don’t you think that’s a strange way of determining someone’s identity?

LOL! Not likely, given what we know about perishable bodies and traveling unprotected through the stratosphere.

Christians have a range of beliefs but yes a perishable human would break up travelling at the terminal velocity required to exit the earth’s atmosphere.

My speculative opinion is that the perishable body was transformed into a imperishable body, ... literally. If and when it happens to me, I'll try to get word of what happens back to you if I can.
BTW, ... regarding your term "spiritual heavens". I don't know what you mean by "spiritual heavens". Are you speaking of some metaphorical, Baha'i illusory stuff or something real? Seems to me that it would be very un-Baha'i-like to speak of a "real spiritual heaven", as if it has a physical aspect or nature to it, no?

Ok so the perishable body transforms to an imperishable body so no body left on earth. So are you saying that the same thing will happen to you? That means if you are buried there will no trace of your body when you go to heaven. As there’s no documented cases of anyone’s body just disappearing through supernatural means, does that mean you don’t go to heaven until the day of resurrection?

The Baha’i heaven is very real. For Baha’is God is Omnipresent. He is everywhere but we don’t experience Him through our five senses. So there are realms and dimensions to our being that we can not perceive. The soul of man can’t be detected with autopsy. Yet it is the part of us that recognises the Excellence of our Creator. That part of who we are departs the body at death and we experiences world’s of God that are imperceptible and incomprehensible in this world. So perhaps heaven is all around us but we have no awareness.

So Baha’is believe the life of the soul begins at conception and our progress in this world determines our progress in the next life. So the ecstasy of reuniting with God awaits the faithful soul and the torment of separation from God the one who has been faithless and selfish.

You're wanting to see how far I'll take this "literal imperishable body" stuff, aren't you? Suffice it to say: I can take it pretty far and, I suspect, a lot farther than you're prepared to follow.

That is correct. I’m really very interested to understand how you see it and how it makes sense to you.

Are you testing me or playing with me? In either case, either John the Baptist was the prophet Elijah reincarnated, if reincarnations are possible, in which case, I suppose, that Elijah's imperishable spirit was "in" John the Baptist's perishable body; or John the Baptist was figuratively/non-literally Elijah. Personally, I'm inclined to believe that John was Elijah figuratively-speaking, not literally.

I’m neither testing you or playing games. Once again just curious and interested in how you make sense of scriptures. So let’s consider this further. Elijah may have been reincarnated as John the Baptist. Do you think John the Baptist knew he was Elijah? Did anyone other than Jesus recognise who he was? Do you think Jesus will return as Elijah did, reincarnated into a different human body?

Then we have the other option which I agree is the more likely. John the Baptist was Elijah figuratively. So he had a similar spirit, role or station. So in that case would the Return of Christ also be figurative? A man who is Christ like as John the Baptist was Elijah like?

Thanks in advance for continuing our conversation should you feel so inclined.

 

[Dawnofhope]

So what is the real Baha'i belief on this? Was bringing Lazarus back life metaphorical or literal? Does the Quran support that it was literal? But, never, ever have I heard a Baha'i say that the resurrection of Jesus was literal. And that's the important one.

In regards Lazarus it is possible Jesus brought Him back to life as miracles are possible. We don’t know for certain of course and there’s nothing in the Baha’i Writings or Quran that would either support or rule this out. In a similar manner it is also possible Jesus was literally resurrected. However the whole resurrection narrative depends on the ascension which of course is illogical and irrational. For that reason Abdul-Baha discounts the resurrection.

But contradicting logic and reasoning? Everything that Jesus did contradicted science and logic. Walking on water, the resurrection and then floating off into the sky. But can God create a body that has flesh and bone and then de-materializes? If so, problem solved.... for Christians but not for Baha'is. Baha'is need a physically dead Jesus. That makes all the post resurrection appearances for Baha'is to be only metaphorical. And that solves all their problems. The physical body of Jesus is dead. He rose in spirit. The appearances and ascension were not real. But that contradicts what the NT says. So what you gonna do?

If you believe in God then we need to accept an Omnipotent God can break the laws of nature and miracles are possible. However the ascension is a bridge too far. The post crucifixion stories in the Gospels are easily explainable as theological rather than historical narrative and many Biblical scholars take this approach.

 

[Dawnofhope]

(a) Either a spirit has some property that is commonly associated with matter, be it mass, energy, or both; or it does not.
(b) If it does not, the atheists are correct: physical death puts an end to perishable beings and Paul's "imperishable beings" doctrine is nonsense, physical post-death remains dissolve into "stardust", and the entity that I am ceases to exist. In which case, there is no such thing as the afterlife.
(c) If being ceases to be in the grave, Baha'i teaching isn't even close to accurate, much less: relevant, as when it prattles on about the afterlife, to wit:

• Body and Soul Bahá'í Reference Library - Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, Pages 207-209
  
  The Bahá’í teachings with regard to body and soul, and the life after death, are quite in harmony with the results of psychical research. They teach, as we have seen, that death is but a new birth—the escape from the prison of the body into a larger life, and that progress in the afterlife is limitless.
  A large body of scientific evidence has gradually been accumulating which in the opinion of impartial but highly critical investigators is amply sufficient to establish beyond all question the fact of a life after death—of the continued life and activity of the conscious “soul” after the dissolution of the material body. As F. W. H. Myers says in his Human Personality, a work which summarizes many of the investigations of the Psychical Research Society:—
  Observation, experiment, inference, have led many inquirers, of whom I am one, to a belief in direct or telepathic intercommunication, not between the minds of men still on earth only, but between minds or spirits still on earth and spirits departed. Such a discovery opens the doors also to revelation. …
  We have shown that amid much deception and self-deception, fraud and illusion, veritable manifestations do reach us from beyond the grave. …
  By discovery and by revelation certain theses have been provisionally established with regard to such departed souls as we have been able to encounter. First and chiefly, I, at least, see ground to believe that their state is one of endless evolution in wisdom and in love. Their loves of earth persist, and most of all, those highest loves which find their outlet in adoration and worship. … Evil to them seems less a terrible than a slavish thing. It is embodied in no mighty Potentate; rather it forms as isolating madness from which higher spirits strive to free the distorted soul. There needs no chastisement of fire; self-knowledge is man’s punishment and his reward; self-knowledge and the nearness or the aloofness of companion souls. For in that world love is actually self-preservation; the Communion of Saints not only adorns but constitutes the Life Everlasting. nay, from the laws of telepathy it follows that that communion is valid to us here and now. Even now the love of souls departed makes answer to our invocations. Even now our loving memory—love is itself a prayer—supports and strengthens those delivered spirits upon their upward way.
  The measure of agreement between this view, which is founded on careful scientific research, and that of the Bahá’í teachings, is truly remarkable.

And my opinions are the least of your worries. Baha'i nonsense is your bigger problem.

This is the writings and opinion of the author Dr J E Esslemont. It is not part of the Baha’i Writings and just the opinion of an individual Baha’i. It carries no more weight than anything anyone else says and looks a little dated. OTOH the first five chapters were reviewed by Abdul-Baha prior to publication so has more weight.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Yeah, I remember one quote that went on and on about how great Jesus was. But, he didn't do the miracles (although, sometimes they do)... he is not God in the flesh (But, like all manifestations, is a perfect reflection of God)... and he didn't rise from the grave (Physically, only in spirit). So again, Baha'is have it both ways. They can say how they believe in Jesus, while at the same time deny anything they want to about Jesus.

Not really.

As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation that its divine origin is unconditionally acknowledged, that the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus Christ are fearlessly asserted, that the divine inspiration of the Gospel is fully recognized, that the reality of the mystery of the Immaculacy of the Virgin Mary is confessed, and the primacy of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, is upheld and defended.

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Promised Day Is Come, Pages 108-113

 

[Terry Sampson]

For the record there’s nothing in the Baha’i writings that refers to Paul not literally seeing the resurrected Jesus (not that I’m aware of).

First and foremost, IMO, is the challenge of identifying "mutually agreed upon" usable and applicable Baha'i writings. As the Baha'i Reference Library says, in the words of Baha'u'llah, "Immerse yourselves in the ocean of my words." He wasn't shy about writing his words.
If I go to the Baha'i Reference Library, @ Baha'i Reference Library , I find something that I would normally think is "authoritative" ground to take a stand on, but because it was not composed by the Bab, Baha'u'llah, or Abdu'l-Baha, or Shogi Effendi, it's 2nd level (or more) authoritative, e.g.

the writings and opinion of the author Dr J E Esslemont. It is not part of the Baha’i Writings and just the opinion of an individual Baha’i. It carries no more weight than anything anyone else says and looks a little dated.

Consequently, when you say "there's nothing in the Baha'i writings that refers to Paul not literally seeing the resurrected Jesus" and if I respond with:

• The Great Resurrection
  
  The Day of Judgment is also the Day of Resurrection, of the raising of the dead. St. Paul in his First Epistle to the Corinthians says:—221
  Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.—I Cor. xv, 51–53.
  As to the meaning of these passages about the raising of the dead, Bahá’u’lláh writes in the Book of Íqán:—
  … By the terms “life” and “death,” spoken of in the scriptures, is intended the life of faith and the death of unbelief. The generality of the people, owing to their failure to grasp the meaning of these words, rejected and despised the person of the Manifestation, deprived themselves of the light of His divine guidance, and refused to follow the example of that immortal Beauty. …
  
  … Even as Jesus said: “Ye must be born again” [John iii, 7]. Again He saith: “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit” [John iii, 5–6]. The purpose of these words is that whosoever in every dispensation is born of the Spirit and is quickened by the breath of the Manifestation of Holiness, he verily is of those that have attained unto “life” and “resurrection” and have entered into the “paradise” of the love of God. And whosoever is not of them, is condemned to “death” and “deprivation,” to the “fire” of unbelief, and to the “wrath” of God. …
  
  In every age and century, the purpose of the Prophets of God and their chosen ones hath been no other but to affirm the spiritual significance of the terms “life,” “resurrection,” and “judgment.” … Wert thou to attain to but a dewdrop of the crystal waters of divine knowledge, thou wouldst readily realize that true life is not the life of the flesh but the life of the spirit. For the life of the flesh is common to both men and animals, whereas the life of 222 the spirit is possessed only by the pure in heart who have quaffed from the ocean of faith and partaken of the fruit of certitude. This life knoweth no death, and this existence is crowned by immortality. Even as it hath been said: “He who is a true believer liveth both in this world and in the world to come.” If by “life” be meant this earthly life, it is evident that death must needs overtake it.—Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 114, 118, 120–21.
  According to the Bahá’í teaching the Resurrection has nothing to do with the gross physical body. That body, once dead, is done with. It becomes decomposed and its atoms will never be recomposed into the same body.
  
  Resurrection is the birth of the individual to spiritual life, through the gift of the Holy Spirit bestowed through the Manifestation of God. The grave from which he arises is the grave of ignorance and negligence of God. The sleep from which he awakens is the dormant spiritual condition in which many await the dawn of the Day of God. This dawn illumines all who have lived on the face of the earth, whether they are in the body or out of the body, but those who are spiritually blind cannot perceive it. The Day of Resurrection is not a day of twenty-four hours, but an era which has now begun and will last as long as the present world cycle continues. It will continue when all traces of the present civilization will have been wiped off the surface of the globe.
  

Then you're going to tell me, "Not so fast, everything you underlined is the opinion of Dr. Esslemont and not part of the Baha'i Writings. It's just the opinion of an individual Baha'i which carries no more weight than anything anyone else says and looks a little dated."

If I then say, "Okay, so there's nothing in the authoritative writings of Baha'i that says Paul did not literally see the resurrected Jesus. There is, however, something in Paul's writings that says that the resurrected AND ascended Jesus appeared to Paul as a Entity of blinding light and spoke to him, you're going to tell me: 'Not so fast, seeing a bright light and hearing a voice is not the same as seeing the resurrected Jesus that others claimed to have seen shortly after Jesus' crucifixion. What Paul experienced must have been a metaphorical, symbolical, figurative, non-physical experience, because, as Dr. Esslemont says: "the Resurrection has nothing to do with the gross physical body." Stale-mate, wanna play another round?"

No thanks.