loverOfTruth
Well-Known Member
Hi Pegg, I have responded to that already and many more of your arguments in my last response but I have not heard anything from you.
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Who is God ? or what are God's attributes ?
- Thread starter loverOfTruth
- Start date
Hi Pegg, I have responded to that already and many more of your arguments in my last response but I have not heard anything from you.
PolyHedral
Superabacus Mystic
Neither makes much sense, when you get right down to it.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
our views are entirely different because your beliefs are based on the Quran, and mine on the Bible. There is no point in us discussing immortal souls because the bible does not claim that man has an immortal soul...hence i dont believe we existed before we were created human.
So, i leave you in peace on that note.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
From a non-believing perspective...of course not.
loverOfTruth
Well-Known Member
You are quite right on that point. However, that part has no bearing on our discussion (though the immortality of Jesus(pbuh) and Adam(pbuh) does).
But I have shown you that you could not support your belief with evidence even from your own scripture. However, since we are here to critique and learn from others' arguments and experiences, I would ask you to listen to the following lecture by Dr. Jerald F. Dirks that shows even early christians had quite a different take on the Crucifixion of Jesus(pbuh). Dr. Dirks has a Master of Divinity from Harvard Divinity School.
[youtube]2m4KW-dysKk[/youtube]
From Jesus to Muhammad: A History of Early Christianity - YouTube
So, i leave you in peace on that note.
Thanks and peace to you as well. And I mean no offense or disrespect to you or your faith. It is just for the sake of learning and constructive criticism we discuss the facts.
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Thanks for adding this!
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
there is much scriptural evidence that we are mortal, and do not survive after death.
Ecclesiasties 9:5 For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all
Psalm 88:10 For those who are dead will you do a marvel? Or will those impotent in death themselves arise, Will they laud you? Se′lah.
Psalm 115:17 The dead themselves do not praise Jah, Nor do any going down into silence.
Psalm 146:4 His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; In that day his thoughts do perish.
Isaiah 38:18 For it is not She′ol that can laud you; death itself cannot praise you. Those going down into the pit cannot look hopefully to your trueness.
John 11:11 He said these things, and after this he said to them: Laz′a·rus our friend has gone to rest, but I am journeying there to awaken him from sleep.
Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.
Psalm 90:3 You make mortal man go back to crushed matter, And you say: GO back, YOU sons of men.
Ecclesiastes 3:20 All are going to one place. They have all come to be from the dust, and they are all returning to the dust.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then the dust returns to the earth just as it happened to be and the spirit itself returns to the [true] God who gave it.
Job 34:15 All flesh will expire together, And earthling man himself will return to the very dust
Even the hebrew word for 'soul' does not mean a spiritual part of man...it means the living man himself...his flesh & bones. The soul IS the physical part of man...its all of what we see in a living breathing person. Its the part of man that we can touch. And this is the part of man that dies according to the scriptures:
Ezekiel 18:4 Look! All the soulsto me they belong. As the soul of the father so likewise the soul of the sonto me they belong. The soul that is sinningit itself will die
Now you know the Quran says that it was sent to 'confirm' the scripture sent before it...well all I can assume is that the scripture sent before it, the bible, gives us the true reality of mankind. When we die, that is it. We are completely unconscious and unaware....we return to dust and live no more.
Hopefully you can see from the above scriptures that immortality is not supported by the bible....only 'mortality' is support. That means we are only alive and conscious in this human state...if we die, we are no longer a conscious being, hence we do not exist.
i have not speakers so cannot listen, but perhaps you can give me a rundown.
loverOfTruth
Well-Known Member
That's not what I meant. I meant I have shown you that you couldn't show me evidence (Jesus's word from your own scripture) that Jesus(pbuh) pre-existed as an angel and/or His sonship is special/different than any other Son of God mentioned in the bible.
I don't know what mortality you are talking about. We do believe that human beings are mortal as in we will die and return to earth. But then again we will be resurrected and then live forever in heaven/hell. So you don't believe in heaven/hell ?
If I get some time, I'll try. It is quite long.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
I thought i did post some scriptures...such as:
John 6:32 Hence Jesus said to them: Most truly I say to YOU, Moses did not give YOU the bread from heaven, but my Father does give YOU the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is the one who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world. 34 Therefore they said to him: Lord, always give us this bread.
35 Jesus said to them: I am the bread of life. He that comes to me will not get hungry at all, and he that exercises faith in me will never get thirsty at all. 36 But I have said to YOU, YOU have even seen me and yet do not believe. 37 Everything the Father gives me will come to me, and the one that comes to me I will by no means drive away; 38 because I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me
The special relationship according to Jesus words are that he has such a close bond with the Father, that all others learn about God through Jesus.
Matthew 11:27 All things have been delivered to me by my Father, and no one fully knows the Son but the Father, neither does anyone fully know the Father but the Son and anyone to whom the Son is willing to reveal him.
we accept the scriptural teaching that hell is the 'grave' or the 'tombs' of mankind. the hebrew word is 'sheol' and it is translated 'hell' in english. But Sheol is the common grave of mankind...it is the place we are buried. That is the only hell we believe in.
And as for heaven, we do believe in heaven, but we dont believe all dead humans go there...we believe in the resurrection to life on an earthly paradise....not a heavenly one.
loverOfTruth
Well-Known Member
I already told you about those. Just because Jesus(pbuh) was in Heaven before doesn't mean he pre-existed as an angel. Even Adam(pbuh) came from Heaven.
That would be the perfect description of a messenger of God. Even Abraham(pbuh) said something similar (according to the Qur'an) :
"...indeed there has come to me of knowledge that which has not come to you, so follow me; I will guide you to an even path." (Al-Qur'an 19:43) and I don't need to mention that we believe God is All-Knowing.
So then everyone goes to hell ? Since everyone goes to the grave. What's the difference between an 'earthly paradise' and 'heaven' ? And what's the requirement to go to one vs. the other ?
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
Yes, everyone goes to hell where they are awaiting to be resurrected. Even the patriarchs spoke of going into hell/sheol to await the day when they are called out of hell
Genesis 37:34 With that Jacob ripped his mantles apart and put sackcloth upon his hips and carried on mourning over his son for many days. 35 And all his sons and all his daughters kept rising up to comfort him, but he kept refusing to take comfort and saying: “For I shall go down mourning to my son into She′ol!(hell)”
Job prayed to go to sheol so that he could have rest from his troubles:
Job 14:13 O that in She′ol/hell you would conceal me,... That you would set a time limit for me and remember me! 14 If an able-bodied man dies can he live again? All the days of my compulsory service I shall wait, Until my relief comes. 15 You will call, and I myself shall answer you
Rebellious isrealites were said to be swallowed by 'sheol' (hell) as punishment from God:
Numbers 16:30 '...and the ground has to open its mouth and swallow up them and everything that belongs to them and they have to go down alive into She′ol (hell)
This psalm shows that hebrews believed Sheol was the pit for the dead;
Pslams 30:3 O Jehovah, you have brought up my soul from She′ol itself;
You have kept me alive, that I should not go down into the pit
Proverbs 1:12 Let us swallow them down alive just like She′ol, even whole, like those going down into a pit
Ezekiel 31:16 At the sound of its downfall I shall certainly cause nations to rock when I bring it down to She′ol with those going down into the pit, .. 17 With him they themselves also have gone down to She′ol/hell, to those slain by the sword,
So every person who dies, good and bad, go to the same place. And every person who has died will be brought out of the grave too. Jesus said that both the righteous ones and unrighteous ones will be resurrected:
John 5:25 “Most truly I say to YOU, The hour is coming, and it is now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God ... 28 Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment
Jesus words are in harmony with earlier prophets who foretold the time when all the dead will rise:
Isaiah 26:19 “Your dead ones will live. A corpse of mine—they will rise up. Awake and cry out joyfully, YOU residents in the dust! For your dew is as the dew of mallows, and the earth itself will let even those impotent in death drop [in birth]
The difference between an earthly paradise and heaven are this :
Isaiah 66:1  This is what Jehovah has said: “The heavens are my throne, and the earth is my footstool.
The earthly paradise is mans domain, the heavens are Gods domain. We were not created to live in heaven....our purpose was always to serve God on earth and bring the earth into harmony with Gods purpose for it. To make it a Paradise.
A small few will go to heaven...the requirement is that they are adopted as sons of God by God. They gain this adoption through Jesus Christ.
John 1:12 However, as many as did receive him, to them he gave authority to become God’s children, because they were exercising faith in his name;
Romans 8:23 Not only that, but we ourselves also who have the firstfruits, namely, the spirit, ...we are earnestly waiting for adoption as sons, the release from our bodies by ransom.
2 Corinthians 6:18 “‘And I shall be a father to YOU, and YOU will be sons and daughters to me,’ says Jehovah the Almighty.
These ones who are invited to become Gods children will die in this life, but will be reborn as powerful spirits....in the same manner that Jesus was reborn. That is called the 'first resurrection'.... the 2nd resurrection is for those asleep in the ground to awake into the earthly paradise. the rest of mankind fall into this category.
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