Who is God?

[RestlessSoul]

The serpent needed to be trapped and cursed in order to complete creation. Before this, none of it was material. In order for God to see that all of creation is "very good", it needs a physical world.

So a material world must necessarily contain death and corruption?

 

[RestlessSoul]

True, why the universe? Why a world with flaws? Why humans with flaws? If God exists, then it is all his fault.

Can you imagine a world without flaws?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Can you imagine a world without flaws?

The existence of universe is a proof against existence of God. What need did he have to create the universe?
If the purpose of the so-imagined God and his so-begotted son was to create a heavenly kingdom, then he could have created that in the first instant.
Yes, I can imagine a world without flaws where humans share the bounties of nature as also face the challenges of nature unitedly. Perhaps it will be a sort of communist/socialist world.

 

[RestlessSoul]

The existence of universe is a proof against existence of God. What need did he have to create the universe?
If the purpose of the so-imagined God and his so-begotted son was to create a heavenly kingdom, then he could have created that in the first instant.
Yes, I can imagine a world without flaws where humans share the bounties of nature as also face the challenges of nature unitedly. Perhaps it will be a sort of communist/socialist world.

A world without flaws would, by definition, be a world without humans.

Could there be light without darkness, heat without cold, stasis without movement, calm without the storm? I know you are non dualist, but in this material world which we inhabit, all phenomena are defined by their opposites. So no imperfections means no possible perfection for you to aspire to or dream about.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Justice would not be compatible with His knowing the outcome of every individual, including that of Adam and Eve, EXCEPT that in His wisdom, He told them that IF they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, they would die. It is not reasonable to imagine that He tells them this knowing full well they would eat and die.

I don't see any problem..
If Adam and Eve never sinned for eternity, would there be no world as we know it?
..and what about their progeny? Do you think all human beings could remain sinless?

Similarly, Adam and Eve could have eaten, He knew that. But to say He knew beforehand that they would does not harmonize with justice.

That makes no sense.
G-d has given us "the law" to live by, but He knows that we will all commit sins.
..so are you saying that G-d shouldn't give us any guidance, as it is unfair?

 

[Aupmanyav]

A world without flaws would, by definition, be a world without humans.

You have a very low opinion of humans. See how lovingly the aboriginal societies live.

 

[YoursTrue]

I don't see any problem..
If Adam and Eve never sinned for eternity, would there be no world as we know it?
..and what about their progeny? Do you think all human beings could remain sinless?


That makes no sense.
G-d has given us "the law" to live by, but He knows that we will all commit sins.
..so are you saying that G-d shouldn't give us any guidance, as it is unfair?

Obviously you have the freedom to believe what you want. (Just like Adam and Eve did and Satan and the demons do.) Hey, take care and have a good day...Yes, I believe (some) humans those that survive the coming events including the reign of Jesus Christ, eventually can and will be without sin. They will not do what God tells them not to do because -- they love Him and His Son. Again -- take care and have a real good one.

 

[RestlessSoul]

You have a very low opinion of humans. See how lovingly the aboriginal societies live.

Do you mean the Australian aborigines? Probably the only culture in all of history not to be familiar with war, until the white man came.

I think I have a realistic opinion of humans. I’ve lived among them all my life.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Obviously you have the freedom to believe what you want. (Just like Adam and Eve did and Satan and the demons do.)

You have missed out the rest of humanity .. why is that?

 

[dybmh]

So a material world must necessarily contain death and corruption?

Yes, but.

A material world must necessarily contain. The containers ( vessels ) require the serpent. Not a literal serpent, but the unique spiritual attributes, soul, or energy that define the serpent. It's the primordial serpent. It includes the potential for death and corruption, but the spirit/soul/energy of the serpent is not itself death and corruption. So, yes, the material world must necessarily contain death and corruption. Contain. But it is not necessary for this death and corruption to leak out. It does leak out, but someday, hopefully soon, it won't.

 

[YoursTrue]

Adam too was tempted and that is what has been happening since then. :little smile:
Adam did not have a choice. God had made them both (Adam and Eve) in that way.

What do you mean they did not have a choice? For one thing, they were not created as dogs, were they? They were created as humans. Did they have a choice about that? I'll help you out there. No, they did not have a choice as to whether they would be human or male or female.

 

[YoursTrue]

True, why the universe? Why a world with flaws? Why humans with flaws? If God exists, then it is all his fault.

We are humans. I didn't know the universe existed when I was 6 months old, for example.

 

[dybmh]

That is a fascinating question.

The problem is, it leads to other questions. Are these the only two options? What does the evil consist of? What does the 90% consist of?

These questions make it unanswerable. I can say that I don't necessarily see simple existence as a good thing in and of itself.

Perhaps a better question in context would be, did God choose a world with 10% evil over no world at all? And if so why? And remember to ask the same qualifying questions.

I define good as constructive and evil as destructive. In most conversations of morals, the wording is usually benefit and harm. The 10/90 split didn't come from me, BTW. That was from the person I was replying to. That said, this is how I see it:

The goal is not just good, but very good.

Genesis 1:31:

And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.​

Perfection = good. Perfection + Imperfection that improves over time = very good. The one is quantitativley more than the other.

God already has perfection, that exists in the divine realm. Hosts of angels on a procession, praising and doing God's bidding in perfect unison with no errors in anyway. That's good. But creating something flawed, and then teaching this flawed thing to repair itself? That's amazing! That's like the difference between making a picture and making a puzzle. Or maybe writing a story compared to writing a riddle. Or maybe a map compared to a scavenger hunt. It takes much more skill to create both the flaw and the remedy, rather than just perfection. Creating all three: perfection, the flaw, and the remedy? That's very good.

 

[dybmh]

True, why the universe? Why a world with flaws? Why humans with flaws? If God exists, then it is all his fault.

It's proper to blame God for the faults, if there is gratitude for the rest. Or, ignore God and skip the blame.

 

[dybmh]

You have a very low opinion of humans. See how lovingly the aboriginal societies live.

A primitive spiritual people. I love it!

 

[Aupmanyav]

A primitive spiritual people. I love it!

Jews too were like that before Moses put the 'One God' idea in their mind and asked them to decimate the Canaanites who had displeased this God.

"13 When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies.
18 Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the Lord your God."

This is 'God speak'. What can one expect from such a God?

 

[YoursTrue]

Jews too were like that before Moses put the 'One God' idea in their mind and asked them to decimate the Canaanites who had displeased this God.

"13 When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies.
18 Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the Lord your God."

I am reading 2 Chronicles 13 and see that the tribes of Israel separated into two kingdoms, one north and one south. You probably know that though.

 

[YoursTrue]

It's proper to blame God for the faults, if there is gratitude for the rest. Or, ignore God and skip the blame.

Then you can blame quantum mechanics and evolution.

 

[dybmh]

Jews too were like that before Moses put the 'One God' idea in their mind and asked them to decimate the Canaanites who had displeased this God.

"13 When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies.
18 Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the Lord your God."

This is 'God speak'. What can one expect from such a God?

We're told that those nations did every possible detestable thing. Every. Possible. Detestable. Thing. It was a proper command.

​

You shall not do so to the Lord your God; for every abomination to the Lord, which he hates, have they done to their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burned in the fire to their gods.​

 

[YoursTrue]

We're told that those nations did every possible detestable thing. Every. Possible. Detestable. Thing. It was a proper command.

​

You shall not do so to the Lord your God; for every abomination to the Lord, which he hates, have they done to their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burned in the fire to their gods.​

If I may -- there is God. I'm reading 2 Chronicles 13 about the rival kings Israel and Judah -- fascinating...hope you get a chance to read it, dybmh.