Who is God?

[YoursTrue]

Do I have an option?

It's kind of like did Eve have an option? (She was tempted...) Then what about Adam, did he have an option? Choice for Adam was -- life (without Eve) or death. Which did Adam choose? Life? or death?

 

[YoursTrue]

It was necessary.

Sorry, dybmh, what was necessary? That God knew Adam would sin? Again -- if He did, and it's interesting that Adam was the second, not the first one to eat what he was told not to eat. Otherwise...
But anyway, they both ate before the sentence was related to them verbally.
So you have your thoughts and I have mine and again -- (what was necessary?)

 

[Alien826]

Which would you choose a world with 10% evil, or no world at all?

That is a fascinating question.

The problem is, it leads to other questions. Are these the only two options? What does the evil consist of? What does the 90% consist of?

These questions make it unanswerable. I can say that I don't necessarily see simple existence as a good thing in and of itself.

Perhaps a better question in context would be, did God choose a world with 10% evil over no world at all? And if so why? And remember to ask the same qualifying questions.

 

[YoursTrue]

It was necessary.

But you're sure that you're correct in your assumption? just wondering...

 

[YoursTrue]

That is a fascinating question.

The problem is, it leads to other questions. Are these the only two options? What does the evil consist of? What does the 90% consist of?

These questions make it unanswerable. I can say that I don't necessarily see simple existence as a good thing in and of itself.

Perhaps a better question in context would be, did God choose a world with 10% evil over no world at all? And if so why? And remember to ask the same qualifying questions.

another question could be why would anyone be given a choice?

 

[muhammad_isa]

I'm saying it doesn't make sense that God Almighty would know in advance that Adam would sin. If He did, it becomes a sham..

It is not "a sham"..
The fact that G-d is aware of our sinful nature, changes nothing.

He has made us of independent mind in order to test us, and He is oft-Forgiving
and Merciful.
G-d forgave Adam and Eve for their sins, as He forgives us for our sins,
G-d willing.

Nevertheless, there is a consequence .. there always is.

 

[dybmh]

Sorry, dybmh, what was necessary? That God knew Adam would sin? Again -- if He did, and it's interesting that Adam was the second, not the first one to eat what he was told not to eat. Otherwise...
But anyway, they both ate before the sentence was related to them verbally.
So you have your thoughts and I have mine and again -- (what was necessary?)

The serpent needed to be trapped and cursed in order to complete creation. Before this, none of it was material. In order for God to see that all of creation is "very good", it needs a physical world.

 

[YoursTrue]

The serpent needed to be trapped and cursed in order to complete creation. Before this, none of it was material. In order for God to see that all of creation is "very good", it needs a physical world.

I'm sorry, I don't understand your reasoning. But anyway -- have a good evening. Perhaps another time.

 

[YoursTrue]

It is not "a sham"..
The fact that G-d is aware of our sinful nature, changes nothing.

He has made us of independent mind in order to test us, and He is oft-Forgiving
and Merciful.
G-d forgave Adam and Eve for their sins, as He forgives us for our sins,
G-d willing.

Nevertheless, there is a consequence .. there always is.

God promised Adam DEATH if he did what God told him not to do. He didn't say, "OK, I forgive you, don't worry, you'll live anyway." No, he did not.

 

[YoursTrue]

It is not "a sham"..
The fact that G-d is aware of our sinful nature, changes nothing.

He has made us of independent mind in order to test us, and He is oft-Forgiving
and Merciful.
G-d forgave Adam and Eve for their sins, as He forgives us for our sins,
G-d willing.

Nevertheless, there is a consequence .. there always is.

Insofar as "independent mind" goes, when the Israelites were told to worship their God that was not an independent mind, although like King Solomon, God permitted free thought, or disobedience. But there were consequences.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Insofar as "independent mind" goes, when the Israelites were told to worship their God that was not an independent mind..

What are you talking about?
Are you suggesting that human beings have not been given an independent mind?

 

[dybmh]

I'm sorry, I don't understand your reasoning. But anyway -- have a good evening. Perhaps another time.

The important point is that a person does not need to compromise when contemplating God. The story we've been given explains literally everything. In that story God is all knowing, all powerful, and merciful (Exodus 20:6).

 

[YoursTrue]

The important point is that a person does not need to compromise when contemplating God. The story we've been given explains literally everything. In that story God is all knowing, all powerful, and merciful (Exodus 20:6).

He is all-knowing with what He wants to know. He can read hearts, even see us while we were embryos. Job 37:23 - helps to put God's justice and righteousness in its proper place--
"Understanding the Almighty is beyond our reach;
He is great in power,
And he never violates his justice and abundant righteousness."

Justice would not be compatible with His knowing the outcome of every individual, including that of Adam and Eve, EXCEPT that in His wisdom, He told them that IF they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, they would die. It is not reasonable to imagine that He tells them this knowing full well they would eat and die. That's like a parent telling a child if you skip school today I will punish you, knowing they would skip school. He knew they could or might skip school, but he warned them not to, otherwise...
Similarly, Adam and Eve could have eaten, He knew that. But to say He knew beforehand that they would does not harmonize with justice.

 

[YoursTrue]

The important point is that a person does not need to compromise when contemplating God. The story we've been given explains literally everything. In that story God is all knowing, all powerful, and merciful (Exodus 20:6).

Exodus 20:6? says, "but showing loyal love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments." Thank you for bringing that up. So if you mean that scripture, it not only gives a choice to those He was speaking to, but wouldn't make sense if He knew in advance who would turn against Him. I am not saying God could not have made it that way, but to be reasonable and rational, it would not have made sense, or be in harmony with true justice, including punishment, if He knows IN ADVANCE our decisions. This is also because He is God. He decides what He will see and not see. We do not. But He does give us commands. What is the point of giving laws and commands if He knows beforehand each and every action we will take? Again, He is God and we are not. That means He sets the standard.
Some teach the concept of predestination. But that concept would mean that, before creating angels or earthling man, God exercised his powers of foreknowledge and foresaw and foreknew all that would result from such creation. So it's important to clearly understand this. If you're interested, you might want to read the article on Predestination of Foreknowledge: https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1970566?q=foreknowledge&p=par Thanks. For me, it helps to reason on such matters.

 

[YoursTrue]

What are you talking about?
Are you suggesting that human beings have not been given an independent mind?

Good question. When the Israelites, or descendants of Jacob were set free from Egyptian bondage, they were also given laws and commands to follow.

 

[Aupmanyav]

The question is can you accept a flaw for a greater good? It's not a theistic question. It's pragmatic.

Flaws can be accepted when they concern children. Grown ups pay for their flaws. Why should God be exempted?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Goodness! Hawking changed his mind upon occasion. Plus -- he didn't really "know." he just figured it could have happened as he opined based on what he figured as a primary base. He did not know.

If there is a mathematical possibility, then in this quantum world, it can happen. Remember, Einstein said that light would bend and Higgs and others predicted the particle!

 

[dybmh]

Flaws can be accepted when they concern children. Grown ups pay for their flaws. Why should God be exempted?

Because leaders have to make difficult choices.

 

[Aupmanyav]

It's kind of like did Eve have an option? (She was tempted...) Then what about Adam, did he have an option?

Adam too was tempted and that is what has been happening since then. :little smile:
Adam did not have a choice. God had made them both (Adam and Eve) in that way.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Perhaps a better question in context would be, did God choose a world with 10% evil over no world at all? And if so why? And remember to ask the same qualifying questions.

True, why the universe? Why a world with flaws? Why humans with flaws? If God exists, then it is all his fault.