Who is God?

[zenzero]

Friend imagineryme,

I am (god, the being, the eternal, the universal consciousness) the way (tao), the truth (philosophy), and the light. (Buddha) I would contend that one attains God through Jesus through becoming Jesus rather than preaching gospel, but that's just me.

hmmm!
Out of frubals! lol.

Love & rgds

 

[godnotgod]

Truth only exists in philosophy..... what is being stated is that for rational debate to occur, it must be based upon philosophy.

Philosophy is the product of rational thought; reality is not. Truth exists, not in 'phisophosy', but in reality itself. But since the apprehension of reality is beyond rational thought, then it can only be experienced by direct insight, without thought.

The Western mind fancies that it can arrive at "Truth" via the accumulation of knowledge.

The Eastern mind says that it can only be accessed when the mind is emptied of all knowledge, and therefore, conceptual thought.

Philosophy then becomes a feather in one's cap.

"Do not seek the truth;
cease only to cherish opinion"
Sixth Zen Patriarch

 

[godnotgod]

I would contend that one attains God through Jesus through becoming Jesus rather than preaching gospel, but that's just me.

To edit a Buddhist saying a bit:

"Before one becomes God, it is Something Special;
after one becomes God, it is Nothing Special"

Therefore.....

"Before becoming God, sweeping the floor;
after becoming God, sweeping the floor"....

....NOT going out and getting yerself crucified!

"I am the 'this' and the 'that' and the 'blah, blah, blah'...."

The key to this whole ball of wax is The Ordinary: being God; being Enlightened, is just our Ordinary state of existence. 'Nothing Special', you see?

 

[Thief]

To edit a Buddhist saying a bit:

"Before one becomes God, it is Something Special;
after one becomes God, it is Nothing Special"

Therefore.....

"Before becoming God, sweeping the floor;
after becoming God, sweeping the floor"....

....NOT going out and getting yerself crucified!

"I am the 'this' and the 'that' and the 'blah, blah, blah'...."

The key to this whole ball of wax is The Ordinary: being God; being Enlightened, is just our Ordinary state of existence. 'Nothing Special', you see?

"....And He will sweep and garnish His floor...."

The dust goes out the door.
Do you suppose God would care about the dust?
Are you not dust?

 

[Sunstone]

For some mystics, god is the name they give the experience which typically takes place when subject/object perception ceases while experiencing continues.

 

[godnotgod]

"....And He will sweep and garnish His floor...."

The dust goes out the door.
Do you suppose God would care about the dust?
Are you not dust?

Are you referring to Luke 11? In context, it reads:

23He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.
24When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.
25And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished.
26Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.



As far as I can tell, the sweeping involved is not of a physical house, but of the body, where the spirit dwells.



The meaning of this has nothing to do with what I was referring to.



In Buddhism, 'sweeping the floor' is an ordinary task, as 'washing the dishes' and 'chopping wood' also are. When a Buddhist refers to an ordinary task, he is also referring to the miraculous, since, to a Buddhist, the world is One, and the ordinary cannot be separated from the miraculous; that division is only conceptual.


In addition, 'dust' in the Buddhist world is a metaphor for suffering. We speak of having 'no attachment to dust', meaning no attachment to the world; the 'dust of the river doth murmur and weep'.



In this context, yes, God cares deeply about 'dust'.



In the context you are referring to, God cares nothing for dust, and the dust cares nothing for God. But your meaning makes no sense from God's point of view, since God's view is indiscriminate; that is to say, God makes no distinction between the high and the low. To him, all things are equal to each other.



No, I am not dust in the sense in which you are referring, which is a derogatory one. You imply that God has disdain for man, and cares not for him as he sweeps him out the door, with an attitude.


In your view, 'dust' and clay are what Adam (and all men) are made of. God is the 'maker', the potter, the artisan, who creates man as if he were a pot. Man and pot are created things, or artifacts, which have no life of their own, being wholly dependent upon an external creator-God. Having been created, they are subject to destruction, or, as you imply, being swept out the door as just so much dust.



But that is an egotistic, simplistic, divisive, and ignorant view of the existence of man and the world.



You begin with the idea that the orange and the orange tree are distinct one from the other, when they have never been separated, not even for one instant. Man grows out of the Infinite in the same way that the orange grows out of the orange tree. In turn, the Infinite unfolds within man from the inside out, just as the living juices flow from the orange tree into the orange.



The universe is alive with the creative force from within ; not dead and insignificant, as in your 'dust'.

Your God has an attitude toward his creation that says: "I am God. I created you. I control you, and I can destroy you. I am everything and you, nothing, and so, I sweep you out the door if you fail to bow down to me. You are but dust beneath my feet, and I scorn thee"*




In the Buddhist world, even dust is enlightened.



You don't become God; you don't become enlightened. You are already that. You always have been, even from the very beginning. You simply come to the realization that you are, that's all.


The dust, too, is God.



Careful where you walk.



It is sad that, once again, you have missed the point.


Go have yourself an orange, why don'cha?

*Reminds me of the true story of a Buddhist monastery under siege in Korea. The conquering general was ordered to take the hill upon which the monastery sat. All through the siege, the Zen Master sat motionless, in his inner chambers, meditating in silence. When the general burst in upon him, the Master failed to acknowledge his presence, continuing to stare straight ahead, in silence. Enraged, the general drew his sword and said: "Sir, do you know that I can run this sword right through you?", at which the Master stood, bowed, and said: "And sir, did you know that I can have that sword run right through me?", at which the general sheathed his sword, bowed, and left.

 

[Katzpur]

Can someone please explain to me why the God of most Abrahamic religions is just called "God" instead of calling Him by a name? To me that is kind of like naming your child "Child."

I think it's a matter of respect. I realize that people don't name their children "Child" and I know a few people personally who address their parents by their first names. I could never have done that myself. I would not have felt comfortable calling my parents Jetta and Jim. Instead, I called them Mama and Papa. When people address royalty, they typically say, "Your Highness" or something of that sort, and they often call the President of the United States, "Mr. President" even though that is clearly not his name.

 

[Thief]

Are you referring to Luke 11? In context, it reads:

23He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.
24When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.
25And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished.
26Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.



As far as I can tell, the sweeping involved is not of a physical house, but of the body, where the spirit dwells.



The meaning of this has nothing to do with what I was referring to.



In Buddhism, 'sweeping the floor' is an ordinary task, as 'washing the dishes' and 'chopping wood' also are. When a Buddhist refers to an ordinary task, he is also referring to the miraculous, since, to a Buddhist, the world is One, and the ordinary cannot be separated from the miraculous; that division is only conceptual.


In addition, 'dust' in the Buddhist world is a metaphor for suffering. We speak of having 'no attachment to dust', meaning no attachment to the world; the 'dust of the river doth murmur and weep'.



In this context, yes, God cares deeply about 'dust'.



In the context you are referring to, God cares nothing for dust, and the dust cares nothing for God. But your meaning makes no sense from God's point of view, since God's view is indiscriminate; that is to say, God makes no distinction between the high and the low. To him, all things are equal to each other.



No, I am not dust in the sense in which you are referring, which is a derogatory one. You imply that God has disdain for man, and cares not for him as he sweeps him out the door, with an attitude.


In your view, 'dust' and clay are what Adam (and all men) are made of. God is the 'maker', the potter, the artisan, who creates man as if he were a pot. Man and pot are created things, or artifacts, which have no life of their own, being wholly dependent upon an external creator-God. Having been created, they are subject to destruction, or, as you imply, being swept out the door as just so much dust.



But that is an egotistic, simplistic, divisive, and ignorant view of the existence of man and the world.



You begin with the idea that the orange and the orange tree are distinct one from the other, when they have never been separated, not even for one instant. Man grows out of the Infinite in the same way that the orange grows out of the orange tree. In turn, the Infinite unfolds within man from the inside out, just as the living juices flow from the orange tree into the orange.



The universe is alive with the creative force from within ; not dead and insignificant, as in your 'dust'.

Your God has an attitude toward his creation that says: "I am God. I created you. I control you, and I can destroy you. I am everything and you, nothing, and so, I sweep you out the door if you fail to bow down to me. You are but dust beneath my feet, and I scorn thee"*




In the Buddhist world, even dust is enlightened.



You don't become God; you don't become enlightened. You are already that. You always have been, even from the very beginning. You simply come to the realization that you are, that's all.


The dust, too, is God.



Careful where you walk.



It is sad that, once again, you have missed the point.


Go have yourself an orange, why don'cha?

*Reminds me of the true story of a Buddhist monastery under siege in Korea. The conquering general was ordered to take the hill upon which the monastery sat. All through the siege, the Zen Master sat motionless, in his inner chambers, meditating in silence. When the general burst in upon him, the Master failed to acknowledge his presence, continuing to stare straight ahead, in silence. Enraged, the general drew his sword and said: "Sir, do you know that I can run this sword right through you?", at which the Master stood, bowed, and said: "And sir, did you know that I can have that sword run right through me?", at which the general sheathed his sword, bowed, and left.

Too many words and too little wisdom.
You are dust...dust you shall be.

And you will follow your dust into the box and the box into the grave.
Eternal darkness shall have you.

Unless of course you change your mind.
Stand up, during the hour of your last breath, and pray you are worthy to stand before the Lord.

If you are not worthy you shall be swept away.

 

[godnotgod]

Too many words and too little wisdom.
You are dust...dust you shall be.

Heh! heh! Dust with an ego! I like that!

(or, an ego dragging around a corpse! heh! heh!

And you will follow your dust into the box and the box into the grave.

Still attached to dust, I see.

You have yet to produce this mysterious "I" that lives and dies and goes to a grave. So far, he is nowhere to be seen.

Who is it that lives? Who is it that dies?

A complete and total mystery!

Eternal darkness shall have you.

Where there is light there is no nescience. Light your lamp.

Unless of course you change your mind.

There is nothing to change my mind about, nor any mind to change. There is light and there is darkness. That is all.

Stand up, during the hour of your last breath, and pray you are worthy to stand before the Lord. If you are not worthy you shall be swept away.

I am neither worthy, nor not-worthy.

You cling to the illusion of duality even unto your last breath.

Worthy and not-worthy; heaven and hell; good and evil; ho and hum. Been there; done that. Get real.

Belief clings.

Faith lets go.

Have faith. Let go of the dust.

Then there is neither life nor death; no grave, nor not-grave. There is only this wonderful, eternal, Present Moment. That is all there has ever been, is now, and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.

"Be glad, Oh, be glad, for the song goes on forever"

"Thou hast nor youth nor age, but, as it were, an after-dinner sleep,
dreaming on both":beach:

 

[Herr Heinrich]

Hmmm. 23 pages huh? A lot of it looks like debate. Didn't he just want a simple answer?

To answer the OP: I believe Christians see it as disrespectful to call god Yahweh. At least that is what I was told as a Catholic.

 

[Thief]

Heh! heh! Dust with an ego! I like that!

(or, an ego dragging around a corpse! heh! heh!



Still attached to dust, I see.

You have yet to produce this mysterious "I" that lives and dies and goes to a grave. So far, he is nowhere to be seen.

Who is it that lives? Who is it that dies?

A complete and total mystery!



Where there is light there is no nescience. Light your lamp.



There is nothing to change my mind about, nor any mind to change. There is light and there is darkness. That is all.



I am neither worthy, nor not-worthy.

You cling to the illusion of duality even unto your last breath.

Worthy and not-worthy; heaven and hell; good and evil; ho and hum. Been there; done that. Get real.

Belief clings.

Faith lets go.

Have faith. Let go of the dust.

Then there is neither life nor death; no grave, nor not-grave. There is only this wonderful, eternal, Present Moment. That is all there has ever been, is now, and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.

"Be glad, Oh, be glad, for the song goes on forever"

"Thou hast nor youth nor age, but, as it were, an after-dinner sleep,
dreaming on both":beach:

Obviously.....you don't have a clue.

For 'the moment'....you're stuck in your body.
That was not your handiwork, and not your choice.
When the hour of your last breath finally gets here....
You will 'stand up'...or you won't.

Let's say you have what it takes, and you do so.
You will then have an opportunity to engage with people gone before you.
They will either ask you to follow or they won't.
That choice belongs to them...not you.

Yes for now...we are all 'attached to the dust'.
That condition will change.
If you fail to let go...fail to stand up...into the box, and into the ground you will go.

 

[godnotgod]

To give God a name is to be too familiar with him. God must always be at some distance, ultimately unreachable and untouchable, not out of respect, but out of fear. To call God 'Joe" or some other familiar name makes him too accessible. He will have lost some of his mystery and power. Look what happened to the God that was Jesus. He got too close, and was mocked, jeered, ridiculed, and ultimately destroyed. For most, God can only be God if he has the upper hand at all times. Lucifer's rebellion proved that.

 

[godnotgod]

Yes for now...we are all 'attached to the dust'.
That condition will change.
If you fail to let go...fail to stand up...into the box, and into the ground you will go.

Whew! Well, thank God I can think outside the box, and am no longer attached to dust!

Are you still thinking 'dust' or 'no-dust', Thief?

"Fundamentally no wisdom-tree exists, Nor the stand of a mirror bright. Since all is empty from the beginning, Where can the dust alight?"​

Sixth Zen Patriarch

[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, san-serif]
[/FONT]​

 

[Thief]

Frubals for #232. None for #233.

 

[godnotgod]

Frubals for #232. None for #233.

Thus Sprach Zarathustra!

 

[godnotgod]

Obviously.....you don't have a clue.

For 'the moment'....you're stuck in your body.
That was not your handiwork, and not your choice.
When the hour of your last breath finally gets here....
You will 'stand up'...or you won't.

Let's say you have what it takes, and you do so.
You will then have an opportunity to engage with people gone before you.
They will either ask you to follow or they won't.
That choice belongs to them...not you.

Yes for now...we are all 'attached to the dust'.
That condition will change.
If you fail to let go...fail to stand up...into the box, and into the ground you will go.

This entire scenario is nothing more than your belief system. In reality, you have no real evidence that points to it being true. And yet, you tell ME that I haven't a clue: clue as to what? Your belief system? As I have constantly pointed out, what is more important than your belief system is what it is based upon. I have repeatedly asked you about this, but you have consistently failed to respond, going ahead instead with dictatorially professing your beliefs. The bottom line is that, if I fail to get inline with your belief system, then I am doomed to an eternity of agony. All you are really saying is: "Just you wait...THEN you'll see....THEN you'll be sorry!" So it appears that your belief system is nothing more than a threat, a scare tactic, and coercion. For you, existence is either black or white. You draw the line in the sand: "You are either with me or against me".

Once again, I ask you: what basis do you have for first, believing as you do, and second, for using that belief system to frighten others to submit to it?

You echo the scare tactics of the priests, who twisted the divine message so they could extract tribute from their congregations.

It is one thing to say: "The Kingdom of God is within you", and quite another to say: "No man goes to the Father (Heaven) except through me"

Apparently, you haven't a clue as to the difference.

 

[Thief]

This entire scenario is nothing more than your belief system. In reality, you have no real evidence that points to it being true. And yet, you tell ME that I haven't a clue: clue as to what? Your belief system? As I have constantly pointed out, what is more important than your belief system is what it is based upon. I have repeatedly asked you about this, but you have consistently failed to respond, going ahead instead with dictatorially professing your beliefs. The bottom line is that, if I fail to get inline with your belief system, then I am doomed to an eternity of agony. All you are really saying is: "Just you wait...THEN you'll see....THEN you'll be sorry!" So it appears that your belief system is nothing more than a threat, a scare tactic, and coercion. For you, existence is either black or white. You draw the line in the sand: "You are either with me or against me".

Once again, I ask you: what basis do you have for first, believing as you do, and second, for using that belief system to frighten others to submit to it?

You echo the scare tactics of the priests, who twisted the divine message so they could extract tribute from their congregations.

It is one thing to say: "The Kingdom of God is within you", and quite another to say: "No man goes to the Father (Heaven) except through me"

Apparently, you haven't a clue as to the difference.

Your denial is noted.
But you fail to show how I might be wrong.

Regardless of faith or belief.....we die.
You are indeed attached to your dust.
That attachment must be broken or you will follow your body into the box, and the box into the ground.

If you are able to stand up, during the hour of your last breath, you should anticipate that others are able to do likewise.
There are 6billion possibilities.

You will keep company with others who share your belief, or you will share eternity with people who don't, or you will be alone altogether.

If you are allowed to follow after people who share similar belief, it's because they allow it.
That's not your choice.
You may claim to be Jew, or Christian, or Muslim, or whatever.
But the affirmation....the confirmation...belongs to them....not you.

(I don't follow a particular religion.)
Instead I say...'do unto others as you would have them do unto you.'

None of us ever really needed anything else, or anything more.

 

[habahaba]

Thanks, has left to read.

 

[godnotgod]

Your denial is noted.

I neither denied nor affirmed. All I am saying is that what you proclaim is only your belief, and not reality. How can I deny that which has not yet been demonstrated as real? All I can honestly say to you is: "What do you base your belief upon?"

But you fail to show how I might be wrong.

It is not incumbent upon me to do so. You are the one who is professing the belief, not I. Therefore, it is you who must defend what you say. I am not saying you are wrong or right. I am merely asking you to support your statement. I ask you yet again: Upon what basis are you making such statements and claims?

If you come to me and tell me that the water in the lake is cold, I am not saying you are wrong. I am merely asking you how you know that it is cold.

Regardless of faith or belief.....we die.

Well, I see a transformation, but no such thing as death, because there is no such thing as life. Once you understand that, you are free.

You are indeed attached to your dust.
That attachment must be broken or you will follow your body into the box, and the box into the ground.

No. On the contrary. It is YOU that is attached to your dust, since you insist on the finality of the grave. I just told you. There is no death.

If you are able to stand up, during the hour of your last breath, you should anticipate that others are able to do likewise.

As far as I know, there is nothing which mandates that everyone, at the hour of their death, must make some testimony. Is it conceivable to you that a man, though he may have lived a wayward life, may have already addressed and resolved all pending issues? That such a man can go to his death completely free? It sounds to me as if you are including some sort of judgment by others at death.

You will keep company with others who share your belief, or you will share eternity with people who don't, or you will be alone altogether.

If you are allowed to follow after people who share similar belief, it's because they allow it.
That's not your choice.
You may claim to be Jew, or Christian, or Muslim, or whatever.
But the affirmation....the confirmation...belongs to them....not you.

How do you know that any of the above is true? You seem to be looking at the afterlife in terms of how the ordinary man views his everyday existence. In other words, you are projecting. Is it not possible that, in the spiritual world itself, there are no beliefs? When you live in the spiritual world, of what use are beliefs? You are no longer a Jew, Muslim, etc.

Only you know for certain if you are in the right place. That is your experience, and no one else's. There is nothing to prove to anyone else. When you are in the right place, everything else will naturally fall into place of its own accord, without you having to do anything.

 

[Thief]

I neither denied nor affirmed. All I am saying is that what you proclaim is only your belief, and not reality. How can I deny that which has not yet been demonstrated as real? All I can honestly say to you is: "What do you base your belief upon?"



It is not incumbent upon me to do so. You are the one who is professing the belief, not I. Therefore, it is you who must defend what you say. I am not saying you are wrong or right. I am merely asking you to support your statement. I ask you yet again: Upon what basis are you making such statements and claims?

If you come to me and tell me that the water in the lake is cold, I am not saying you are wrong. I am merely asking you how you know that it is cold.



Well, I see a transformation, but no such thing as death, because there is no such thing as life. Once you understand that, you are free.



No. On the contrary. It is YOU that is attached to your dust, since you insist on the finality of the grave. I just told you. There is no death.


As far as I know, there is nothing which mandates that everyone, at the hour of their death, must make some testimony. Is it conceivable to you that a man, though he may have lived a wayward life, may have already addressed and resolved all pending issues? That such a man can go to his death completely free? It sounds to me as if you are including some sort of judgment by others at death.


How do you know that any of the above is true? You seem to be looking at the afterlife in terms of how the ordinary man views his everyday existence. In other words, you are projecting. Is it not possible that, in the spiritual world itself, there are no beliefs? When you live in the spiritual world, of what use are beliefs? You are no longer a Jew, Muslim, etc.

Only you know for certain if you are in the right place. That is your experience, and no one else's. There is nothing to prove to anyone else. When you are in the right place, everything else will naturally fall into place of its own accord, without you having to do anything.

Are you assuming there are no consequences for becoming the person you are?