WHO IS GOD'S TRUE ISRAEL IN THE NEW COVENANT?

[3rdAngel]

BACK TO THE OP......

GOD'S ISRAEL IN THE NEW COVENANT ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES ARE NOW ALL THOSE WHO BELIEVE AND OBEY GOD'S WORD!

According to the scriptures, the name "Israel" is only a name given by God to all those who choose to have faith in His Word. In the new covenant scriptures, I would like to pose that Gods true Israel in the new covenant are no longer those born of the flesh of the seed of Abraham (Romans 9:6-8; Romans 2:28-29 and Galatians 3:28-29) but are now all those who are born again of the Spirit of God through faith (see John 3:3-7; compare 1 John 3:4-10 and Galatians 5:16; Romans 8:1-4) into Gods new covenant promise (Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27). Therefore, Gods Israel according to the scriptures in the new covenant are now all those who through faith believe and follow what Gods Word says and all believers both Jews and gentiles are all now one in Christ (Romans 10:11-13; Colossians 3:11) through faith in Gods Word. Gentile believers have been grafted in with Jewish believers (Romans 11:13-27). According to the scriptures, if we are not a part of Gods Israel in the new covenant then we have no part in God's new covenant promise *Hebrews 8:10-12. God never made His new covenant with Gentiles (Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27) but with believers regardless of their heritage.

According to the torah and new covenant scriptures the Messiah also represents God's true ISRAEL as an individual as it was applied to Jacob and as to those who also believe and follow God's Word. The Messiah (Jesus Christ) and his followers are Gods true Israel born of the Spirit of God, are the anti-type, the Israel in the flesh that is not the type as Jacob was or the nation of Israel born of the seen of Abraham. According to the scriptures, Jesus is Israel (Matthew 2:13-15, compare with Hosea 11:1; as are all his disciples all through time; Hebrews 2:13; Isaiah 8:16,18; John 13:33), the true "overcomer" (John 16:33; Revelation 3:21), the real "Prince" with God (Isaiah 9:6; Daniel 8:11,25, 9:25, 10:13,21, 11:22, 12:1; Acts 3:15, 5:31; Revelation 1:5), being Lord over His own house, whose house are we (Psalms 98:3; Hebrews 3:6; Jeremiah 31:33), who himself is the "elect" (Isaiah 42:1; Matthew 12:18; 1 Peter 2:6) of the Father, in whom all the promises of God find their realization (2 Corinthians 1:20). The promises made by God were all based upon condition (Exodus 19) see Matthew 2:13-15; Hosea 11:1; Jeremiah 31:33; Romans 9:6-8; Hebrews 2:13; Isaiah 8:16,18; John 13:33, 16:33, 17:12, 18:9, 21:5; 1 Corinthians 15:46; 2 Corinthians 1:20; Galatians 6:16; Hebrews 3:6, 8:8,10; Revelation 3:21

'Israel' "born after the flesh of the seed of Abraham", as an unbelieving 'nation', is left desolate (Matthew 23:38; Luke 13:35), to bear no more fruit ever again (Matthew 21:19), cursed, withered away (Mark 11:21), dried up from the roots (Mark 11:20), "twice dead" (Jude 1:12), and the axe already laid at their root (Matthew 3:10; Luke 3:9), cut down and to be thrown into the fire. The New [or Everlasting] Covenant is only made with the spiritual “Israel” (Jesus Christ, the "elect" of the Father; Isaiah 42:1; Matthew 12:18-20), this “Judah” (Revelation 5:5) and His “house” (2 Corinthians 1:20 - For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.; – for Christ Jesus, the true “Israel” is the “elect” of God, and thus all who choose to be in Him; see Isaiah 42:1, 45:4, 65:9) The new testament scriptures portray JESUS as the head and those who believe and follow his Word as the body *Ephesians 1:22; 4:15; 5:23; Colossians 1:18. God's ISRAEL are all those who believe and follow God's Word.

Further supporting scripture....

1. ORIGINS OF THE NAME ISRAEL IS OUTSIDE OF COVENANTS
2. GOD'S ISRAEL IN THE NEW COVENANT SCRIPTURES ARE NOW ALL THOSE WHO BELIEVE AND OBEY GODS WORD
3. GENTILE BELIEVERS ARE NOW GRAFTED IN

May God bless you as you seek to know Him through His Word.

 

[shunyadragon]

Well then you have no argument for your view as this is a scripture discussion forum.

My argument is very relevant. and supported by the lack of provenance and the ancient tribal nature of the scripture. I believe I look at both sides more objectively, without attachment to scripture justifying scripture.

Scripture is very relevant as it is Gods word that outlines the fall of mankind and Gods plan of salvation to all those who are lost in their sins and unbelief standing guilty before God of sin and death. Your view is not universal. It is simply your opinion based on your finite knowledge of the teachings of the world which you choose to believe over the Word of God that was given to save us from our sins and that gives us the knowledge of good and evil.

Not really a false teacher is simply someone who teaches things that are false and not true. I am sure we both would agree on this. Regardless, just because someone might be teachings something that is not true does not mean that what someone else teaches is not true. Likewise, just because there is many different conflicting versions of Christianity does not mean that there is not a true version of Christianity. As it is written in the scriptures that in the last days "There shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; so that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." (Matthew 24:24) and again "Many are called but few are chosen" (Matthew 22:14) and again "Enter in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leads to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leads to life, and few there be that find it." (Matthew 7:13-14) and again "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out devils? and in your name done many wonderful works? Then will I profess to them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity." (Matthew 7:21-23). Fact is what these scriptures are saying is that the majority of different versions of Christianity will be lost!

Judaism considers Jesus Christ a false Messiah based on their scripture the Torah, and Paul a false teacher.

As posted earlier your argument is one of unbelief. So not really relevant to this OP and also has no basis in understanding what is true and what is not true or if there is a God or no God. Either way you cannot prove the scriptures are not Gods Word or that there is no God. For me, what you believe does not effect my faith in God and His Word as I already know God is real and have no doubt and have met him in my life. So there is absolutely nothing you can say to convince me otherwise. I use to be an Atheist by the way.

Take Care.

Well, my argument is based on the fact that the Torah, Bible and the Quran are ancient tribal texts without provenance as the basis of religions each claiming the true Covenant with God whether new or old. The Jews claim their Covenant is the Covenant and not the Old Covenant. An outside more objective view is in the mill.

You being an atheist in past is as relevant as a three dollar bill at the race track. Many young people wander in their belief with trying on atheism, agnosticism or whatever. Most return to the shoes that comfortably fit in their home grown sense of belonging.

 

[3rdAngel]

My argument is very relevant. and supported by the lack of provenance and the ancient tribal nature of the scripture. I believe I look at both sides more objectively, without attachment to scripture justifying scripture.

Perhaps in your mind you believe that your argument is relevant. I do not believe you. To me your arguments are not relevant because it does not address anything in the OP here which is about scripture defining who Gods Israel is under the new covenant. Your argument is simply one of unbelief in the scriptures which is a belief I do not hold to. You seek to argue your unbelief in order to justify your sins. This is what many do who choose not to believe God and His Word. Meanwhile there is always that little voice in the back of your mind saying "What if I am wrong?" What if there is a God and this is His Word? For me the difference between you and me is that I know what I believe is true and have no doubt that God is real and so is His Word (the scriptures). However you might want to consider dear friend if you are wrong you have far more to lose throughout all eternity than I ever will but that is your choice and you are free to choose what you want to believe or not believe. I have made my choice and you have have made yours so we will agree to disagree but I will always hope that you might change your mind before it is too late to do so.

Judaism considers Jesus Christ a false Messiah based on their scripture the Torah, and Paul a false teacher. Many young people wander in their belif with trying on atheism, aganosticaim od whatever. Most return to the shoes that comfortably fit in their home grown sense of belonging.

Agreed and Atheists do not believe in a God or gods let alone the scriptures being Gods Word. There are many false teachings and religions in the world today, as there always has been. That does not mean that there is not a true religion that believes and follows the only true God. You cannot show me anything in the Torah that proves that the new testament scriptures are not from God. In fact everything that comes from the new testament comes our of the Torah and the prophets of the Hebrew bible. What you post here only agree with what I posted to you earlier. According to the scriptures, a false teacher is simply someone who teaches things that are false and not true. I am sure we both would agree on this. Regardless, just because someone might be teachings something that is not true does not mean that what someone else teaches is not true. Likewise, just because there is many different conflicting versions of Christianity does not mean that there is not a true version of Christianity. As it is written in the scriptures that in the last days "There shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; so that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." (Matthew 24:24) and again "Many are called but few are chosen" (Matthew 22:14) and again "Enter in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leads to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leads to life, and few there be that find it." (Matthew 7:13-14) and again "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out devils? and in your name done many wonderful works? Then will I profess to them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity." (Matthew 7:21-23). Fact is what these scriptures are saying is that the majority of different versions of Christianity will be lost!

Well, my argument is based on the fact that the Torah, Bible and the Quran are ancient tribal religions each claiming the true Covenant with God whether new or old. The Jews claim their Covenant is the Covenant and not the Old Covenant. You being an atheist in past is as relevant as a three dollar bill at the race track.

Well Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all Abrahamic religions. That is about all they have in common today. Me being an atheist was relevant to what I was posting to in regards to your unbelief in God and His Word and the relevance of your posts here to this OP. As posted earlier your argument is one of unbelief. So not really relevant to this OP and also has no basis in understanding what is true and what is not true or if there is a God or no God. Either way you cannot prove the scriptures are not Gods Word or that there is no God. For me, what you believe does not effect my faith in God and His Word as I already know God is real and have no doubt and have met him in my life. So there is absolutely nothing you can say to convince me otherwise. This life is only a short one. There is nothing hidden that shall not be revealed according to the scriptures come judgement day. Sadly at this time it will be too late for the many that were called but chose not to believe. So I guess we will agree to disagree here.

Take Care.

 

[shunyadragon]

Perhaps in your mind you believe that your argument is relevant.

Perhaps you believe your argument is the only one relevant, since have have distinct passion against others concerning false teachers.

I do not believe you.

Of course not. I do not believe as you do.

To me your arguments are not relevant because it does not address anything in the OP here which is about scripture defining who Gods Israel is under the new covenant. Your argument is simply one of unbelief in the scriptures which is a belief I do not hold to.

I address the OP from an objective outside perspective. Nothing in the OP excludes alternative beliefs and explanations.

You seek to argue your unbelief in order to justify your sins.

I do not, unwarranted egocentric presumption on your part.

This is what many do who choose not to believe God and His Word. Meanwhile there is always that little voice in the back of your mind saying "What if I am wrong?"

I believe in God.

Possibly "Meanwhile there is always that little voice in the back of your mind saying "What if I am wrong?"

What if there is a God and this is His Word? For me the difference between you and me is that I know what I believe is true and have no doubt that God is real and so is His Word (the scriptures).

Which scriptures? Each Abrahamic religion claims to have the only true scriptures? By far most eventually make the choice of their heritage. There is a problem here.

However you might want to consider dear friend if you are wrong you have far more to lose throughout all eternity than I ever will but that is your choice and you are free to choose what you want to believe or not believe. I have made my choice and you have have made yours so we will agree to disagree but I will always hope that you might change your mind before it is too late to do so.

Agreed and Atheists do not believe in a God or gods.

When faced with ancient tribal religions and anthropomorphic hands on Gods there beliefs are justified, There ar other options.

There are many false teachings and religions in the world today, as there always has been.

What independent objective criteria do propose?

That does not mean that there is not a true religion that believes and follows the only true God. You cannot show me anything in the Torah that proves that the new testament scriptures are not from God. In fact everything that comes from the new testament comes our of the Torah and the prophets of the Hebrew bible.

Simple the Torah is the Book of the Jews in their language and traditions and they reject the NT and their claims of prophecy. The interpretation of prophecies in all the Abrahamic religions is subjective and conflicting even within Christianity.

What you post here only agree with what I posted to you earlier. According to the scriptures, a false teacher is simply someone who teaches things that are false and not true. I am sure we both would agree on this. Regardless, just because someone might be teachings something that is not true does not mean that what someone else teaches is not true. Likewise, just because there is many different conflicting versions of Christianity does not mean that there is not a true version of Christianity. As it is written in the scriptures that in the last days "There shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; so that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." (Matthew 24:24) and again "Many are called but few are chosen" (Matthew 22:14) and again "Enter in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leads to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leads to life, and few there be that find it." (Matthew 7:13-14) and again "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out devils? and in your name done many wonderful works? Then will I profess to them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity." (Matthew 7:21-23). Fact is what these scriptures are saying is that the majority of different versions of Christianity will be lost!

Well Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all Abrahamic religions. That is about all they have in common today. Me being an atheist was relevant to what I was posting to in regards to your unbelief in God and His Word and the relevance of your posts here to this OP. As posted earlier your argument is one of unbelief. So not really relevant to this OP and also has no basis in understanding what is true and what is not true or if there is a God or no God. Either way you cannot prove the scriptures are not Gods Word or that there is no God. For me, what you believe does not effect my faith in God and His Word as I already know God is real and have no doubt and have met him in my life. So there is absolutely nothing you can say to convince me otherwise. This life is only a short one. There is nothing hidden that shall not be revealed according to the scriptures come judgement day. Sadly at this time it will be too late for the many that were called but chose not to believe. So I guess we will agree to disagree here.

Bold: No one can prove the negative regardless. Though proving the supernatural and the existence of many diverse conflicting Gods is equally problematic.

From a more universal perspective 'Israel' is the evolving spiritual humanity of hundreds of thousands of years at least in the past and into the unknown future, The universal Covenant is beyond any one religion.

 

[3rdAngel]

I address the OP from an objective outside perspective. Nothing in the OP excludes alternative beliefs and explanations.

I do not believe your view is objective. I believe your view is based on an unbeliever who does not believe the scriptures are Gods Word. Therefore you cannot call it objective. Just a view outside of scripture that is in disagreement with the scriptures.

I believe in God.

You say here that you believe in God? How do you know God is real? What makes you believe in God?

Possibly "Meanwhile there is always that little voice in the back of your mind saying "What if I am wrong?"

Well at least your honest. Sorry I do not have that little voice. I use to though when I was an unbeliever and did not believe in God and His Word. I no longer have this and neither have anything to lose. According to the scriptures though all those who do not believe God and His Word have eternity to lose.

Which scriptures? Each Abrahamic religion claims to have the only true scriptures? By far most eventually make the choice of their heritage. There is a problem here. When faced with ancient tribal religions and anthropomorphic hands on Gods there beliefs are justified, There ar other options.

Each of those Abrahamic religions believe the same Torah. That does not make each one right as each religion has its own set of other beliefs outside of the Torah. This is indeed a problem. Once again that does not mean that there is no truth of Gods Word and that there are no false teachers as already foretold in the scriptures (already explained).

What independent objective criteria do propose?

Read the Torah and the prophets. There has always been false religions and false gods such as Baal, Astarte, Asherah, Chemosh, Dagon, Moloch, Tammuz, and more.

Simple the Torah is the Book of the Jews in their language and traditions and they reject the NT and their claims of prophecy. The interpretation of prophecies in all the Abrahamic religions is subjective and conflicting even within Christianity.

What is simple? Where does it say that the Torah is just for the Jews? There was no Jews when God made Adam and Eve, Cain, Abel, Enoch, Methuselah, Lamech, Noah, Shem, Ham Japheth, Arphaxad, Salah, Eber, Peleg, Reu, Serug, Nahor, Terah, and Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob etc... and all their generations.

Bold: No one can prove the negative regardless. Though proving the supernatural and the existence of many diverse conflicting Gods is equally problematic.

Sure we can. In science we call this proving a null hypothesis. Although I thought you said you believe in God? I agree it would be problematic to design such an experiment.

From a more universal perspective 'Israel' is the evolving spiritual humanity of hundreds of thousands of years at least in the past and into the unknown future, The universal Covenant is beyond any one religion.

Not really. According to the scriptures Gods new covenant promise has only ever been made with Israel (see Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8:10-12). However it is how the scriptures define Gods Israel in the new covenant that this OP is talking about. According to the scriptures in the new covenant, Gods Israel is simply a name given by God to all those who are now not only those who are born of the flesh of the seed of Abraham but are now only those who have been born of the Spirit through faith in Gods Words and promises. Gods Israel are now all those who through faith choose to believe and obey what Gods Word says. So I guess we will agree to disagree.

Take Care.

 

[shunyadragon]

I do not believe your view is objective. I believe your view is based on an unbeliever who does not believe the scriptures are Gods Word. Therefore you cannot call it objective. Just a view outside of scripture that is in disagreement with the scriptures.

Of course not, because you believe in one and only one understanding of the Bible and would not remotely consider alternative explanations. Everything else is false teachers.

You say here that you believe in God? How do you know God is real? What makes you believe in God?

I believe in God. I fully objectively realize that there is no objective way to prove, falsify or demonstrate the existence of God. I do not believe in the anthropomorphic hands on ancient Gods like the Biblical God and Zeus.

Well at least your honest. Sorry I do not have that little voice. I use to though when I was an unbeliever and did not believe in God and His Word. I no longer have this and neither have anything to lose. According to the scriptures though all those who do not believe God and His Word have eternity to lose.

This demonstrates you lack an objective perspective of alternative explanations, and believe that your belief is absolutely true without consideration of alternatives.

Each of those Abrahamic religions believe the same Torah. That does not make each one right as each religion has its own set of other beliefs outside of the Torah. This is indeed a problem. Once again that does not mean that there is no truth of Gods Word and that there are no false teachers as already foretold in the scriptures (already explained).

Believing in the Torah does not represent an objective consideration of meaning and context of the Torah from an objective perspective. In fact each religion and the divisions there of have fixed no compromise interpretations of the Torah, and do not remotely consider any alternatives. (already explained).

Examples: The dominate view of sola scriptura of a literal Pentateuch ia a fixed doctrine without compromise in Islam and in many Christian Churches. There is no effort to make an objective independent evaluation of the Pentateuch with independent academic sources in archaeology and historical research. The rejection of the sciences of evolution and the history of our cosmos is rejected without compromise.

The belief in prophecy is different in the different religions with no effort to independent evaluate the text in the context of the culture.

Each religion considers itself the One and only Covenant and rejects absolutely any alternative synario without any objective considerations.

The ancient tribal belief in the exclusiveness of their beliefs has led to wars, violence, conflict, slaughter, and ethnic cleansing over the millennia and today.

Read the Torah and the prophets. There has always been false religions and false gods such as Baal, Astarte, Asherah, Chemosh, Dagon, Moloch, Tammuz, and more.

I have read and studied the Torah, NT Quran for over fifty years. Just reading in and of itself is not objective criteria. I consider outside independent academic historical and archaeological sources, and evaluate the Torah in the context of the culture and time they were written. (already explained)

What is simple? Where does it say that the Torah is just for the Jews?

The Torah

There was no Jews when God made Adam and Eve, Cain, Abel, Enoch, Methuselah, Lamech, Noah, Shem, Ham Japheth, Arphaxad, Salah, Eber, Peleg, Reu, Serug, Nahor, Terah, and Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob etc... and all their generations.

Jews believe that Torah tells their history leading to Kingdom and Nation of Jews. The Torah is compiled and written with this synario at sometime after 600 BCE by Hebrews There is absolutely no reference to Christianity or any other tribe ordained as the chosen people.

Sure we can. In science we call this proving a null hypothesis. Although I thought you said you believe in God? I agree it would be problematic to design such an experiment.

In science we prove nothing. Yes I believe in God from a the perspective of the universal spiritual evolution of humanity over the millennia.

Not really. According to the scriptures Gods new covenant promise has only ever been made with Israel (see Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8:10-12). However it is how the scriptures define Gods Israel in the new covenant that this OP is talking about. According to the scriptures in the new covenant, Gods Israel is simply a name given by God to all those who are now not only those who are born of the flesh of the seed of Abraham but are now only those who have been born of the Spirit through faith in Gods Words and promises. Gods Israel are now all those who through faith choose to believe and obey what Gods Word says. So I guess we will agree to disagree.

As I said before this is your singular only acceptable view of what is 'Israel' and the New Covenant, which the JEws and Islam absolutely reject. I take a different tack and consider the different religions in the context of the hundreds of thousands of years as humanity spiritually evolved after we physically evolved over millions of years.

One of the greatest problems in the text of the Pentateuch compiled after 600 BCE that defines the history of Judaism leading to Kingdom and Nation of the Jews. It represents historical narratives without provenance, based on ancient mythology of Creation, the flood and an Exodus from Egypt.

There are movements within Judaism to acknowledge the problems of a literal Pentateuch Some Christian churches have made partial peace and compromise with the accounts by considering them more figurative traditional accounts and not factual history and acknowledge the science of evolution and the history of the cosmos as accurate and factual. . After the Jewish Reformation beginning in the 18th Century they believe in plain reading for inspiration and tradition, but dominantly acknowledge they are not literal accounts of history of humanity and our physical existence.

 

[shunyadragon]

I do not believe your view is objective. I believe your view is based on an unbeliever who does not believe the scriptures are Gods Word. Therefore you cannot call it objective. Just a view outside of scripture that is in disagreement with the scriptures.

If you are following the thread, and the other thread concerning "Israel" you would realize up from the different perspectives Jews reject the concept of Israel, the New Covenant and Christian belief in the prophecy. They also reject Jesus Christ as any sort of Messiah. There is no compromise from the Jewish perspective. They do not accept the New Covenant.

Christians likewise do not accept the Jewish view as to what is Israel today and the Jewish view that their Covenant is the one and only Covenant.

Now Muslims are participating in these threads, but if they were They would reject both Jewish and Christian beliefs without compromise.

How would your perspective be any different.

 

[3rdAngel]

Of course not, because you believe in one and only one understanding of the Bible and would not remotely consider alternative explanations. Everything else is false teachers.

That is because that is what the bible teaches and I believe what it says.

I believe in God. I fully objectively realize that there is no objective way to prove, falsify or demonstrate the existence of God. I do not believe in the anthropomorphic hands on ancient Gods like the Biblical God and Zeus.

I am confused by what you have written here. You say you believe in God but do not believe in the biblical God? What God do you believe in? Well it is true you cannot objectively prove there is a God unless God reveals himself to you. Likewise no one can prove that there is no God. This is what started my journey by the way to see if God was real when I was an Atheist. I knew no one could prove to me that God was real like I could not prove to anyone that God was not real. I looked into many religions out of curiosity to see if God was in them. I ended up finding God in the very last place I expected to find him. Christianity and the God of the bible.

3rdAngel said: Well at least your honest. Sorry I do not have that little voice. I use to though when I was an unbeliever and did not believe in God and His Word. I no longer have this and neither have anything to lose. According to the scriptures though all those who do not believe God and His Word have eternity to lose.

You responded with..

This demonstrates you lack an objective perspective of alternative explanations, and believe that your belief is absolutely true without consideration of alternatives.

Actually it is quite the opposite. It demonstrates an objective perspective from the viewpoint of someone that does not need convincing that there is no God and from someone that knows God is real and who God has revealed himself to. Yes it is true I believe what I believe is 100% true and have no doubts at all because I have met the God of the bible in my own life. There are no alternatives. I have looked for them already. They do not exist.

Believing in the Torah does not represent an objective consideration of meaning and context of the Torah from an objective perspective. In fact each religion and the divisions there of have fixed no compromise interpretations of the Torah, and do not remotely consider any alternatives. (already explained). Examples: The dominate view of sola scriptura of a literal Pentateuch ia a fixed doctrine without compromise in Islam and in many Christian Churches. There is no effort to make an objective independent evaluation of the Pentateuch with independent academic sources in archaeology and historical research. The rejection of the sciences of evolution and the history of our cosmos is rejected without compromise. The belief in prophecy is different in the different religions with no effort to independent evaluate the text in the context of the culture. Each religion considers itself the One and only Covenant and rejects absolutely any alternative synario without any objective considerations. The ancient tribal belief in the exclusiveness of their beliefs has led to wars, violence, conflict, slaughter, and ethnic cleansing over the millennia and today. I have read and studied the Torah, NT Quran for over fifty years. Just reading in and of itself is not objective criteria. I consider outside independent academic historical and archaeological sources, and evaluate the Torah in the context of the culture and time they were written. (already explained)

Well this is also where we disagree again. Let me give you an example why. We disagree because we are coming from different view points. You believe that the bible is simply another book like every other book in the world and if you believe this then I agree with you that the best approach is an academic one. However, I believe that the scriptures are the Word of God and not a normal book and for the most part cannot be understood academically as it has many symbolic and hidden meanings.

Think about this for a moment the Jews having the Hebrew bible have the most accurate version of the old testament scriptures. Yet they for the most part rejected God and His Word and according to the torah and the prophets received the judgements of God because they turned away from God and His Word. Fast forward to the birth of Jesus and it was not the learned Scribes and Pharisees (the academics) that God revealed the truth of His Word but to the humble fisherman that God taught the truth of His Word to. Jesus praying said "I thank you, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hid these things from the wise and prudent, and have revealed them to babes." (Matthew 11:25). It was the so called academics of the day that rejected God and His Word and it is God that reveals the truth of His Word to those who choose to believe and obey what His Word says. I believe we cannot understand the truth of Gods Word if God is not our guide and teacher because it is written in Isaiah 55:8-9 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, said the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." but God promises anyone that wants to know His Word that he will guide them and teach them if they ask him (see John 7:17; John 14:26; John 16:13).

I think of these scriptures and think how great and fair is God hiding the truth of His Word from the world and but at the same time revealing the truth of His Word to all those who seek and ask him regardless of their academic standing. We therefore cannot know Gods Word through the world but through God. This is where your mistake is because it is written again in the scriptures, "For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He takes the wise in their own craftiness. And again, The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain." (1 Corinthians 3:19-20) and again "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Ghost teaches; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness to him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Corinthians 2:12-14). The wisdom of this world if foolishness with God and we cannot know God and His Word through the world according to the scriptures. It must be taught us from God through His Spirit. This is where we differ.

(more to come)..

 

[3rdAngel]

3rdAngel said: What is simple? Where does it say that the Torah is just for the Jews?

You say

The Torah

No it doesn't. As posted earlier, and as evidence that your claim here is not true I also posted there was no Jews when God made Adam and Eve, Cain, Abel, Enoch, Methuselah, Lamech, Noah, Shem, Ham Japheth, Arphaxad, Salah, Eber, Peleg, Reu, Serug, Nahor, Terah, and Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob etc... and all their generations. The above disagrees with your claim that the Torah is only for Jews. What the torah does do is it show the origins of Gods people under the old covenant Gods people were those of have their origins to Adam and Eve (all mankind) but specifically those who choose to believe and obey what Gods Word says (Genesis 26:5).

Jews believe that Torah tells their history leading to Kingdom and Nation of Jews.

See the OP on page one on the history and the origins of Israel. In the old covenant that the name "Israel" was only a name given by God to Jacob because He believed Gods Word and became an overcomer with God and man. The name "Israel" יִשְׂרָאֵל means "He will rule as God" or "God prevails" from contender or "soldier of God" (to fight). Jacob had 12 sons making the 12 tribes of Israel (Jacob). This is in fulfillment of Gods covenant promise to Abraham that He would make his seed as the stars of heaven or the sand of the sea and a great nation. Under the old covenant Israel were all those born of the flesh of the seen of Abraham but the name was only ever given to those who believe and obey what Gods Word says. The old testament scriptures are consistent with the new testament scriptures that say that it is not enough to call your self Gods people because you claim Abraham is your father. Like the name Israel we can only claim to be Gods people if we believe and obey what Gods Word says. Therefore Gods Israel in the new covenant is no longer all those born of the flesh of the seed of Abraham but are now all those who through faith are born of the Spirit to believe and obey what Gods Word says (see Romans 9:6-8; John 8:37-59).

The Torah is compiled and written with this synario at sometime after 600 BCE by Hebrews There is absolutely no reference to Christianity or any other tribe ordained as the chosen people.

The time the Torah was written is debatable and speculation therefore I am not interested in that discussion. However what a silly argument here. Why would their be a reference to Christianity in the torah? Of course there are references to the Messiah (e.g. Daniel 9:24-27). How would there be a reference to a name of those who followed the Messiah until the arrival of the Messiah?

In science we prove nothing.

As posted earlier in science we can prove a negative or positive (for or against) hypothesis and desigh experiments around our hypothesis. (I am a reseach biologist working for the Government by profession).

Yes I believe in God from a the perspective of the universal spiritual evolution of humanity over the millennia.

You say you believe in God but you are vague in what God you claim to believe it here (as highlighted earlier)

As I said before this is your singular only acceptable view of what is 'Israel' and the New Covenant, which the JEws and Islam absolutely reject. I take a different tack and consider the different religions in the context of the hundreds of thousands of years as humanity spiritually evolved after we physically evolved over millions of years.

Actually no that is not true. It is my view based on what the scriptures teach of the old and new covenant scriptures. Wheather Jews of Muslims reject my view it makes no difference to what I believe. As posted earlier just because someone disagrees with another view does not make that view incorrect or not true I can use the same torah we all claim to believe to prove Islam is a false teaching just like I can show from the same Torah that the Jews have rejected their own Hebrew bible by rejecting their own promised Messiah in Jesus.

One of the greatest problems in the text of the Pentateuch compiled after 600 BCE that defines the history of Judaism leading to Kingdom and Nation of the Jews. It represents historical narratives without provenance, based on ancient mythology of Creation, the flood and an Exodus from Egypt. There are movements within Judaism to acknowledge the problems of a literal Pentateuch Some Christian churches have made partial peace and compromise with the accounts by considering them more figurative traditional accounts and not factual history and acknowledge the science of evolution and the history of the cosmos as accurate and factual. . After the Jewish Reformation beginning in the 18th Century they believe in plain reading for inspiration and tradition, but dominantly acknowledge they are not literal accounts of history of humanity and our physical existence.

You post here is repetition from the perspective of an unbeliever. Please forgive me but I reject your statement as falsehood and foolishness in Gods eyes, so we will agree to disagree on this on.

Take Care.

 

[3rdAngel]

If you are following the thread, and the other thread concerning "Israel" you would realize up from the different perspectives Jews reject the concept of Israel, the New Covenant and Christian belief in the prophecy. They also reject Jesus Christ as any sort of Messiah. There is no compromise from the Jewish perspective. They do not accept the New Covenant. Christians likewise do not accept the Jewish view as to what is Israel today and the Jewish view that their Covenant is the one and only Covenant. Now Muslims are participating in these threads, but if they were They would reject both Jewish and Christian beliefs without compromise. How would your perspective be any different.

I did start following the other thread and was going to post in it as I have studied the topic in a lot of detail from the scriptures as shown in the first page in this OP. However rather than writing in the other thread knowing that my posts would simply be buried and a waste of time I decided to make this thread so my posts would not be buried and lost in the other thread. I also wanted to make the the discussion slightly different and answer the question from a full bible perspective on who Israel really is according to the scriptures. Sorry there is no compromise from my side. I know who God is and who His people are. According to both the old and new testament scriptures, as shown on page one of this OP, Gods true Israel according to the scriptures are simply all those who through faith believe and obey what Gods Word says.

 

[shunyadragon]

I did start following the other thread and was going to post in it as I have studied the topic in a lot of detail from the scriptures as shown in the first page in this OP. However rather than writing in the other thread knowing that my posts would simply be buried and a waste of time I decided to make this thread so my posts would not be buried and lost in the other thread. I also wanted to make the the discussion slightly different and answer the question from a full bible perspective on who Israel really is according to the scriptures. Sorry there is no compromise from my side. I know who God is and who His people are. According to both the old and new testament scriptures, as shown on page one of this OP, Gods true Israel according to the scriptures are simply all those who through faith believe and obey what Gods Word says.

It has been generally accepted that this is your without any possible compromise or consideration of alternatives. This is unfortunately the case form the JEwish an Islamic perspective without possible compromise.

My view is none of the above ancient tribal perspectives, and understand them form the broader universal perspective in what and humans believe in the context of culture and time the religion began and history

 

[3rdAngel]

It has been generally accepted that this is your without any possible compromise or consideration of alternatives. This is unfortunately the case form the JEwish an Islamic perspective without possible compromise. My view is none of the above ancient tribal perspectives, and understand them form the broader universal perspective in what and humans believe in the context of culture and time the religion began and history

For me personally. I do not accept a view outside of the bible that is in contradiction to it. For me it is only a man-made teaching in disagreement with the scriptures that were before History and culture given at the beginning of most history and culture. I do not accept Islam as the Torah that Judaism, Muslims and Christians all claim to believe, God never made His covenant promise through that lineage which can be shown and proven through the same torah everyone claims to have in common and believe. I do not believe Judaism although Gods covenant promise came through them. They reject Gods covenant promise of the Messiah in Jesus. So essentially, Gods covenant promise was through Abraham, his wife Sarah and Isaac (not Ishmael - Islam) to Isaac, Jacob (who God names Israel) and his 12 sons (the 12 tribes of Israel) leading to the promised Messiah in Jesus. Christianity comes from the correct lineage out of Israel where Gods promised Messiah come from.

Take Care.

 

[Monty]

Sorry I do not attend Sunday school. I choose to believe what Gods Word says rather than to read into the scripture what is not there. I think that might be the reasons you got an F in your bible study classes as demonstrated by the scripture contexts you disregard and all the scriptures provided that are in disagreement with you that you refuse to address in post # 235 linked while simply repeating yourself. You are better off receiving Gods correction and being blessed. Reading into scripture does not make what you are reading magically appear and ignoring Gods Word does not make it disappear.

That's your choice if you don't believe what the bible actually says and means and ignore and disregard all the scriptures provided that are in disagreement with your subjective interpretation. But it doesn't make it disappear and change the fact that the bible clearly commands the termination of pregnancies of adulteresses (Lev 20:10 Numbers 5:20-28). If you believe otherwise, then what is the fate of the pregnancy when a pregnant adulteress is commanded to be executed (Lev 20:10), and why aren't male adulterers also commanded to drink a "bitter water" abortifaciant and say "so be it, so be it" (Numbers 5:20-28)?

 

[3rdAngel]

That's your choice if you don't believe what the bible actually says and means, but it doesn't change the fact that the bible clearly commands the termination of pregnancies of adulteresses (Lev 20:10 Numbers 5:20-28). If you believe otherwise, then what is the fate of the pregnancy when a pregnant adulteress is commanded to be executed (Lev 20:10), and why aren't male adulterers also commanded to drink a "bitter water" abortifaciant and say "so be it, so be it" (Numbers 5:20-28)?

Please forgive me dear friend but I do believe what the bible actually says which is why I posted scripture context as a help to you that you have disregarded that proves your interpretation of Leviticus 20 and Numbers 5 does not support what you are saying. Your response was silence, repetition and an unwillingness to address my earlier posts and scriptures shared with you that prove your claims that God promotes abortion is unbiblical nonsense and lies. There is nothing in Numbers 5 or Leviticus 20 about abortion. It is Gods judgement for a faithful and unfaithful woman from the law of jealousy. You are reading abortion into the scriptures and disregarding scripture context. The answer to your question is in the context you disregarded. It is the law of jealousy to see if a woman is being faithful or not faithful. The curse is a judgement from God for unfaithfulness. If you disagree please address the scriptures and the context you disregarded showing your teachings are in error from post # 235 linked. If you cannot please forgive me but I do not believe you because you choose to close your eyes to what the bible actually says.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

That's your choice if you don't believe what the bible actually says and means, but it doesn't change the fact that the bible clearly commands the termination of pregnancies of adulteresses (Lev 20:10 Numbers 5:20-28). If you believe otherwise, then what is the fate of the pregnancy when a pregnant adulteress is commanded to be executed (Lev 20:10), and why aren't male adulterers also commanded to drink a "bitter water" abortifaciant and say "so be it, so be it" (Numbers 5:20-28)?

Lev 10:20 says nothing about terminating a pregnancy. Neither does Numbers 5:20-28

The passage in Numbers is interesting because it describes a way to placate husbands who are irrationally jealous. It designs a fake test that basically proves to the jealous husband that he is mistaken. Because of course, she is NEVER going to swell up and miscarry from this.

 

[Monty]

Please forgive me dear friend but I do believe what the bible actually says which is why I posted scripture context as a help to you that you have disregarded that proves your interpretation of Leviticus 20 and Numbers 5 does not support what you are saying. Your response was silence, repetition and an unwillingness to address my earlier posts and scriptures shared with you that prove your claims that God promotes abortion is unbiblical nonsense and lies. There is nothing in Numbers 5 or Leviticus 20 about abortion. It is Gods judgement for a faithful and unfaithful woman from the law of jealousy. You are reading abortion into the scriptures and disregarding scripture context. The answer to your question is in the context you disregarded. It is the law of jealousy to see if a woman is being faithful or not faithful. The curse is a judgement from God for unfaithfulness. If you disagree please address the scriptures and the context you disregarded showing your teachings are in error from post # 235 linked. If you cannot please forgive me but I do not believe you because you choose to close your eyes to what the bible actually says.

That's just your subjective opinion.

But what is the fate of the pregnancy when a pregnant adulteress is commanded to be executed (Leviticus 20:10)?

And have you ever seen a god and had a face to face discussion about your subjective interpretation of the bible and the actual meaning and purpose of those commandments?

 

[Monty]

Lev 10:20 says nothing about terminating a pregnancy. Neither does Numbers 5:20-28

The passage in Numbers is interesting because it describes a way to placate husbands who are irrationally jealous. It designs a fake test that basically proves to the jealous husband that he is mistaken. Because of course, she is NEVER going to swell up and miscarry from this.

Nonsense. Numbers 5:20-28 commands the termination of pregnancies of adulteresses using a "bitter water" abortifaciant because of the property rights of men, and to ensure legitimate lines of descent and inheritance, and is not about rotting thighs and stomach aches.

CEB
And may the water that brings these curses enter your stomach and make your womb discharge and make you miscarry.” And the woman will say, “I agree, I agree.”
Numbers 5:22.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Nonsense. Numbers 5:20-28 commands the termination of pregnancies of adulteresses using a "bitter water" abortifaciant because of the property rights of men, and to ensure legitimate lines of descent and inheritance, and is not about rotting thighs and stomach aches.

CEB
And may the water that brings these curses enter your stomach and make your womb discharge and make you miscarry.” And the woman will say, “I agree, I agree.”
Numbers 5:22.

Just because water is bitter doesn't mean it is an abortifacient.

 

[Monty]

Just because water is bitter doesn't mean it is an abortifacient.

Abortifacients, however, have been used for thousands of years with varying success. Abortifacient - Wikipedia
And even if you believe that commandment is only about rotting thighs and stomach aches, her pregnancy will then be aborted when she is executed (Lev 20:10) after being found guilty of having rotting thighs and a stomach ache from drinking the "bitter water" medication to prove her guilt of adultery beyond all reasonable doubt (Numbers 5:22).

 

[3rdAngel]

3rdAngel said: Please forgive me dear friend but I do believe what the bible actually says which is why I posted scripture context as a help to you that you have disregarded that proves your interpretation of Leviticus 20 and Numbers 5 does not support what you are saying. Your response was silence, repetition and an unwillingness to address my earlier posts and scriptures shared with you that prove your claims that God promotes abortion is unbiblical nonsense and lies. There is nothing in Numbers 5 or Leviticus 20 about abortion. It is Gods judgement for a faithful and unfaithful woman from the law of jealousy. You are reading abortion into the scriptures and disregarding scripture context. The answer to your question is in the context you disregarded. It is the law of jealousy to see if a woman is being faithful or not faithful. The curse is a judgement from God for unfaithfulness. If you disagree please address the scriptures and the context you disregarded showing your teachings are in error from post # 235 linked. If you cannot please forgive me but I do not believe you because you choose to close your eyes to what the bible actually says.

Your response here.

That's just your subjective opinion. But what is the fate of the pregnancy when a pregnant adulteress is commanded to be executed (Leviticus 20:10)? And have you ever seen a god and had a face to face discussion about your subjective interpretation of the bible and the actual meaning and purpose of those commandments?

See post # 294 linked. Your post here is unresponsive to the post you are quoting from.