IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I hear that the bus ride is absolutely grueling. Be prepared.
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Who is Jesus?
- Thread starter rrobs
- Start date
No idea. Based on some other threads on this site, it seems that Christians have no idea what Jesus's real name was. It was probably one of the following: Yeshu, Yeshua, Yehoshua, Yoshua.
Jews usually use Yeshu or sometimes "Oto Ha'Ish", Hebrew for "That man" (some are of the opinion that you can't say his name because it's used by Christians for idol worship, and there's a problem to say names of idols).
There are some names for the messiah, but these won't necessarily be his actual birth name. They're mostly there to pass on deeper ideas (for example: Menachem, Yinon).
Really??? Would you mind if I called your Jesus "Bob"?
Would it make a difference if I were a Christian and called god Bob all day long?
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PruePhillip
Well-Known Member
Really??? Would you mind if I called your Jesus "Bob"?
Would it make a difference if I were a Christian and called god Bob all day long?
That's not what I mean (and I think you know it)
It doesn't matter what your INTERPRETATION of the name is.
There were issues with vowels back then, and dialects, and translations etc..
The JW make an issue of this, saying that God won't hear your prayer if you
don't call Him by His name. Only, they don't know the name either.
ps I was actually going to say this, and use the word "Bob" too
So it is important. Why say "It's actually not that important"?
I would think that it's important, but as you guys have long lost the true name of your god, you're resorting to letting people use whatever pronunciation and spelling they prefer.
PruePhillip
Well-Known Member
God knows your heart.
Some call God YHWH - but how do you pronounce that? No-one knows.
Some feel respect for God entails not using vowels in His name, ie G-d
Some call the Messiah Jesus and some call Him Jezoo.
But you call the Father and Jesus by what is considered authentic and
respectful in your culture.
As for the "REAL" name of God, spoken as it is in heaven - how could
any air breathing, hairy ape pronounce it?
j1i
Smiling is charity without giving money
Thank you friend
I wish you a happy day
I was thinking about whether we had children and then left them in a place where they could learn everything except religion or faith
No one will find faith in Jesus
They will not imagine that there is a god who came to earth to sacrifice himself
Likewise, other religions such as Hinduism or some of the Buddhist sects that believe in the incarnation of Deity or even Baha'i
They will never believe in any deity on earth because they will think they are a human element but it is mathematically or educationally superior
But they will believe that there is a great Creator outside the field in which they live
This is what I want to deliver
What if a world war occurred or we moved to live on another planet and lost all the information related to the scriptures
All beliefs will disappear, and only faith in the existence of one Creator, the Risen One, which is the ancient God that Jews and Muslims believe in, will remain.
Faith in Jesus or any faith in human existence on Earth will not survive
Only the belief in the existence of a great supreme creator over the heavens
GOD bless you
amen
whirlingmerc
Well-Known Member
The angel said before he was born 'he will save his people from their sins"
No ordinary man can "save" someone "from their sins".
"His people" spoken this way is also unusual for a mere man.
Those things would be more fitting of God.
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ajay0
Well-Known Member
The Prajapita Brahmakumaris, a monotheistic sect based in India, does not view Jesus as God, but more as a son of God like everyone else. He is considered a prophet like figure, but not God by any means. This viewpoint is similar to Jehovah's witnesses and Bahai religion as well.
The Brahmakumaris are a monotheistic sect that worship God Shiva as an incorporeal point of light, and considers Him the same as Jehovah, Ahura Mazda, Allah in other religions.
The Brahmakumaris are a monotheistic sect that worship God Shiva as an incorporeal point of light, and considers Him the same as Jehovah, Ahura Mazda, Allah in other religions.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Nice.
I dont mean to be disrespectful but to respond to you all of us (if not i dont know if there are a few) approach any book we think are scripture with a hell of a lot of preconnceived ideas about the whole gamut of things that surround it, be it Jesus, Muhammed, God, Adam, moses, Devil, Satan, Earth, Universe, and ourselves as readers.
rrobs
Well-Known Member
Satan understood exactly what God said in Genesis 3:15 when God promised a seed, a son, that would bruise his head, i.e., eliminate him for good. What do you suppose Satan's priority became after hearing God say that? Kill the baby! Satan did his absolute best to make sure the promised seed would never see the light of day. He decided he could do that by killing someone in the bloodline of Jesus, thus preventing Jesus from ever making the scene here on earth. He almost succeeded in the days of Noah when God said,
And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually. Gen 6:5
Given that man had free will (God couldn't just force them to be good), His only option was to eliminate all but Noah who just so happened to be both a righteous man, as well as a man through whom the promised seed would eventually come. It may be more accurate to say that it was men who beat their own head against a rock because they refused to live as God intended. Remember, when God created them His idea was for them to live a perfect live in a perfect setting. It certainly wasn't His idea for them to believe the lies of the devil.
Try to imagine God's dilemma; It wasn't His will to just kill people, but He knew that if He didn't do something eventually Satan would succeed in eliminating someone in the bloodline of Christ, thus eliminating Christ himself. That of course would mean we would still be dead in trespasses and sins, without God and without hope. God's hands were full in trying to keep the bloodline alive. Remember, people have free will. God dealing with Israel might be compared to herding millions of cats to do your will! Not an easy task to say the least, but somehow God managed to work with that herd of cats to get them to do what it took to keep the bloodline alive. True, it wasn't always pretty, but I can't imagine what else God could have done. He begged people to believe His words and was a plain as He could be in telling them what happens to them when they disobey.
Deut 30:19,
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Anyway, eventually God pulled it off, His son came into the world and redeemed mankind from sin and death. But along the way, Jesus also revealed the true will of God, showing that God is love and not evil. Paul explained that it was always God's will for people to be saved and know the truth. Jesus also revealed how the true cause of all evil things was Satan and not his Father, God. Before Jesus opened the eyes of those who believe, it simply was not available for people to grasp the full reality of Satan and his doings, so God simply "took the rap" for all the evil done in the world.
In any case, we, in this age of grace, should now know that God's will if for EVERYBODY to be saved and know the truth. But, as I've said and we must never forget, man has free will, and if he wants to start wars, then so be it. God will do His best to work with man's free will, and He often succeeds in minimizing the damage.
In short, don't blame God for all the stupid decisions man has made throughout history. Hopefully all of this will give you something to think about regarding the apparent difference between the God of the OT and the God Jesus revealed in the NT. God did the best He could to herd the cats, but unfortunately many suffered and died trying to go against God's perfect will. God would have been more than happy for Adam to have simply obey one simple command, and thereby live a life of true righteousness and holiness. It's absolutely amazing that He could have changed pulled off our redemption through his son, who also had free will and was tempted just like the rest of us. Fortunately for us, the man (not some grotesque, pagan god-man construct) Jesus obeyed his Father to the letter, even to a gruesome death on the cross.
Take care...
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rrobs
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the reply.
Jesus is called the son of God almost 50 times in the NT alone. Never once do we read God the Son in the scriptures. Seems like that alone ought to settle the matter, but obviously it hasn't.
Just curious, what role, if any, do you see Jesus having in solving the problems of this world, most notably death?
rrobs
Well-Known Member
I understand and appreciate your thoughts. It reminds me of a couple of verses in Romans,
Rom 1:19-20,
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
It seems like man has a conscious and knows intuitively that there is a God. According to these verses, simply looking at the night sky, the oceans, a hummingbird, the birth of a baby, and much more, instills man with the idea that there is something greater than himself.20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
I believe there is a truth. The question is, what is that truth? That is the question Pilot asked Jesus (John 18:38). Had Pilot heard some of Jesus' earlier teachings, he would have known the answer.
John 17:17,
Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
Of course belief in that statement is purely one's own choice. I just so happen to believe it and I've found through many years of research that the scriptures are a most unique body of writings. I've proven to myself many times that the words they contain are true, that the scriptures fit like a hand in a glove, with a mathematical exactness and scientific precision. There is simply no way some 40 different people over a period of thousands of years could have penned a book with such perfectness. People say the scriptures are full of contradictions, but that is only because they go to them already believing that, and never take the time to do the work necessary to see they in fact do not contradict themselves. Any perceived contradiction is either a result of mistranslation (Greek/Hebrew to English) or one's own misunderstanding. When they are approached with a conviction that, as John said, God's word is truth, then it is possible to rise above the lies of the devil and learn the true nature of life, God, and His son Jesus Christ.
Unfortunately the churches have done a bang up job of ruining the Biblical story. The Apostle Paul told Timothy that everyone had turned against him, that the church was invaded by men who taught lies.
2Tim 1:15,
This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.
Acts 20:29,
For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
2Cor 11:4,
For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we (Paul and company) have not preached, or [if] ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with [him].
By and large, that is where we stand to this day. Forgetting the scriptures themselves, even a cursory study of church history will show that the churches of today resemble Greek philosophy and Egyptian mysticism way more than the things actually written in the scriptures. By "a cursory study" I mean one or two hours at most. The information is there, people just chose to ignore it because it would ruin all of their traditions and non-scriptural ideas. I guess it's easier to just go along with the crowd instead of doing the work (2 Timothy 2:15) it takes to unravel the truth taught in the scriptures.
If, as you imagined, we lived in a world without God's revealed word, we would have some conscious of right and wrong which the scriptures mention in Romans, but we would have no way of knowing what to do with it. Well, I suppose God could reveal it to some individuals, but by and large we need those words to tell us the true nature of the things of God.
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syo
Well-Known Member
Jesus said to love everyone, including our enemies. What's a greater message?
rrobs
Well-Known Member
First of all, I wouldn't call Jesus an "ordinary" man. Quite the opposite, he was a most extraordinary man in that despite being temped just like us, he never once disobeyed His father. Certainly that alone would raise his status as far above "ordinary." But then again, why would you call anything ordinary that God says are just slightly below the angels (Ps 8:4-5)?
The other thing that comes to my mind is, where do the scriptures say a man could not save people from sin? Romans declares just the opposite,
Rom 5:15,
But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
1 Tim 2:5,
For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
God gave man free will. He could and did offer His view on what would make their lives good (Deut 30:19), but, ultimately He left it up to them to believe it or not. God had to work with these free will people in order to bring about His plan of redemption. It would have been like herding millions of cats! He had to keep the bloodline of the promised redeemer in tact until Jesus was born. The devil, on the other hand, was doing his best to prevent that bloodline from surviving. Clearly God had His work cut our for Him.
Enter the logos of John 1:1. I know most Christians read John 1:1 as, "In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God," but that is of course not what the verse actually says. It says, "In the beginning was the word, (logos), and the word was with God, and the word was God." Actually, according to Greek grammar, the verse could be written as, "In the beginning was the word (the logos), and the word was towards God and the word was Godly in nature."
What exactly does the word "logos" mean. It doesn't take much effort these days, thanks to the internet, to ascertain that the word logos means a plan. So all John is saying is that God had a plan. And, as I alluded above, that plan was beyond incredible. That plan was how God managed to herd the millions of cats until His son could finally enter the world. Look at all the times in the OT that some man tried to disrupt the bloodline and thus end all hopes for our redemption. In short God's plan was beyond anything man could have devised.
Please allow me to ask you this, what would have been more heroic, God obeying Himself and believing He would raise Himself from the dead, or for a man to obey God, even to the most horrendous torture and death on the cross? The story would be most hum drum for God to do that, but for a man to do that would be the most fantastic story ever imagined. Making Jesus God at once cheapens God's incredible plan, the logos, and completely minimizing the incredible effort Jesus had to make in carrying out that plan, in obeying his Father in every jot and tittle.
As I mentioned above, the scriptures declare that Jesus was tempted in all points just as we are tempted (Heb 4:15). Do you have any conscious of being God whenever you are tempted? I'm thinking you don't. Well if you don't and Jesus was tempted just like you, then he had no consciousness of being God either. After all, the scriptures say it is impossible to tempt God. So we have a big problem if we think Jesus is God.
Regarding temptation, I think it beyond amazing that Jesus was tempted in all points just like us and yet he never once succumbed to that temptation. Do you think he never saw some hot babe and got the same ideas all men get? Why did he resist where all others fail? Because he was a man that loved just that much. He, by his own free will, avoided all the seeming pleasures that sin appears to offer. He was willing to forgo temporal pleasures because he knew that by doing so he was able to redeem you and I. He loved us that much despite our being dead in trespasses and sin.
By the way, I wonder how many Christians would react to the offer of being the ruler of the entire world. That was the temptation the devil put on Jesus. Personally, knowing myself as I do, I would probably have accepted the offer and I don't think I'm alone on that.
So no, Jesus is not an ordinary man. He is quite extraordinary, but he's not God. There is only one God and that is Jesus' Father.
1Cor 8:6,
But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.
While the scriptures speak of God the Father, they never once mention a God the Son. But according to Corinthians, even if they did, he would not be the one God. There is one God, Yahweh, and one Lord, Jesus Christ. True enough, Jesus is our Lord, but he's not our God.
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rrobs
Well-Known Member
Excellent point!
The word "humility" means teachable or coachable. It is much easier to go along with popular opinion and tradition than it is to change one's mind according to what any of the books you mentioned actually say. Too many lack the humility necessary to let go of their own preconceived ideas in favor of what is actually being said.
BTW, I wouldn't think your ideas are at all disrespectful, but thanks for been concerned about that.
EtuMalku
Abn Iblis ابن إبليس
After skimming through a few pages of replies here I would just like to point out that we have absolutely nothing written by Jesus himself, everything was written by another and attributed to Jesus. Personally, I have difficulty believing Jesus/Yeshua even existed, but rather is a culmination of Beliefs personified.
rrobs
Well-Known Member
You've made a good point, but there may be another aspect we should consider before drawing a conclusion.
First of all, I am as aware as anyone can be that I have no power to force a belief on anyone. Belief in any doctrine is purely voluntary. I try my best to not try and "convert" anyone. I'm just a messenger. I've researched the book and I have some idea of what it says in rather simple grammar. One of the things it says is that nobody can interpret it. How can that be? It's real simple; it, like virtually everything else we read, interprets itself which is the same thing as saying it, like virtually everything else we read, does not need interpretation. It is estimated that the Bible is written at an 8th grade level.
Having said all of that, the scriptures address your concern about Jesus never having written any words of the Bible could be allayed with the fact that some of the things he spoke were written down by men who were inspired by God. God told them what to write and they wrote it. As a said, a few things Jesus spoke in his life were deemed important enough for God to have wanted us to have them in written form.
I want to close with the same thought with witch I began; belief in the above is optional. Nevertheless, it certainly helps to know something about whatever it is we decide to believe or not believe it. I really helps to know what the "it" is.
On the one hand you are very observant in seeing hat None of the Bible was penned by Jesus himself. On the other hand, you may have failed to considered alternatives, the main one being their is no need for him to have done so. He was simply conserving energy. Why do anything that isn't necessary? Anyway, it makes sense to my pea brain.
Take care
ajay0
Well-Known Member
Jesus emphasised love, love for God and the neighbor regardless of caste, creed, religion, race, nationality or other differences. This is enough to create harmony and world peace, and solve most problems including fear of death, which is just the ego fearing dissolution. The ego as in 'I', 'me' and 'mine', ironically, is an illusion in itself and a product of the imagination, to which a lot of temporary emotion and memories attach themselves to.
The soul or true Self of each being, as in pure consciousness or awareness, is of an eternal nature.
Love for God creates positive vibes which brings about such a situation or positive environment.
The Prajapita Brahmakumaris emphasise loving remembrance of God as it purifies the environment, creating positive energies and vibrations that influence other people for the better too and help them be positive,blissful and virtuous as well.
Indulgence in vices like lust, anger, greed, egoism, inordinate attachments creates negative energies and vibes which similarly influence other people for the worse.
Environment is stronger than willpower and it is important to maintain noble company of God and other virtuous people to ensure higher states of consciousness and character.