Who is Siva? (Shiva)

[Jainarayan]

What's a zen koan?

A word "riddle" designed to evoke meditation, thinking outside the box and progress. Kind of like, "if you are not home to hear your wife complaining about you, does she make any noise?"

Per Wiki: "a story, dialogue, question, or statement, which is used in Zen-practice to provoke the "great doubt", and test a student's progress in Zen practice."

 

[Vinayaka]

Oh. Okay. Well, certainly I'm too witless or ignorant about Zen to have intended anything that way. But if by happenstance, it occurred, that's fine too.

 

[Jainarayan]

Believe me, Zen is way beyond my ken (no I did not just rhyme that ). And remember, lots of good things have come about serendipitously.

 

[mohinishaktidevi]

What's a zen koan?

a zen koan is a question that is difficult to answer in words, that examplify mindfull action.

a old school Example is

"What is the sound of One hand clapping?"

 

[Vinayaka]

So no, my comment was not a zen koan. You edited it besides.

 

[DeviChaaya]

As a person who identifies primarily as a Shakta, Mahashivratri is still one of the biggest holidays of the year for me. When I do perform pooja to Shiva it is primarily to his form as Lingam. I have tried offering pooja to the beautiful nataraja moorti I have but it never feels right.

Shiva has been so kind to us to give us a icon that represents the formless absolute and when I dream of Shiva (happens a few times a year) it is always of Shiva as Lingam.

The only other holiday I observe with any real fervour is Navratri.

 

[Ekanta]

Actually the religious texts are full of koans, not just zen buddhism, hindu texts, bible also etc. Its a revelation of truth, put in words. Its just that it cant be understood without spiritual intuition. Hence a riddle to most. And plain obvious to some... I would say the upanishads are full of them.

A funny example:
Kau****aki-Brahmana Upanishad 3.2
Then he (Indra) said: I am the Spirit of the vital breath [Prāṇa], the intelligent Self. As such, worship me as life, as immortality.

Brahmna sutra 1.1.28 remarks:
Prāṇa is Brahman, because it is comprehended thus [interpreted as Brahman in the above verse].
(I.e. since Indra is enlightened he talks about his self as Brahman)

Then compare to the famous (but so misunderstood) Bible koan, John 14:6:
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

Most christians will interpret it as only through worship of Jesus can you get to heaven.
But apply the Brahman sutra interpretation (or intuition) and you get:
"Brahman is the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to Brahman except through his own self (knowing atman as brahman)"

And that concludes todays lesson on koans

Peace!

 

[atanu]

Actually the religious texts are full of koans, not just zen buddhism, hindu texts, bible also etc. Its a revelation of truth, put in words. Its just that it cant be understood without spiritual intuition. Hence a riddle to most. And plain obvious to some... I would say the upanishads are full of them.

A funny example:
Kau****aki-Brahmana Upanishad 3.2
Then he (Indra) said: I am the Spirit of the vital breath [Prāṇa], the intelligent Self. As such, worship me as life, as immortality.

Brahmna sutra 1.1.28 remarks:
Prāṇa is Brahman, because it is comprehended thus [interpreted as Brahman in the above verse].
(I.e. since Indra is enlightened he talks about his self as Brahman)

Then compare to the famous (but so misunderstood) Bible koan, John 14:6:
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

Most christians will interpret it as only through worship of Jesus can you get to heaven.
But apply the Brahman sutra interpretation (or intuition) and you get:
"Brahman is the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to Brahman except through his own self (knowing atman as brahman)"

And that concludes todays lesson on koans

Peace!

Om. Om. Om.

 

[Ekanta]

Have to say this also...

"What is the sound of One hand clapping"? This is one of the most famous koans in zen buddhism. However hard we try we dont get any sound, we dont get anything. So its a denial of everything obtained. And by denying all we end up at?

There is a direct parallell in the upanishads! Denying everything is neti neti (not this, not this). This is one of the most famous "definitions" of Brahman, found in Brihadaranyaka Upanishad 2.3.6.

So zen buddhism didnt really invent koans...

 

[Me Myself]

Te zen koans can generally be "solved" in different ways. Non have a real "correct" answer, because they generally are exercises of awareness.

One way I can think for solving the one hand clapping one would be "listen carefully" I wave my hand and there is still really soft sound of the wind made by my moving hand. It could be solved by saying you have not solved the koan until that subtle sound becomes as clear to your senses as a clap. I this way the "solving" of the koan would be to raise your awareness by a lot.

Bt again, this is not the "correct" answer, because that depends on the context... And to whether I feel more enlightened by the answer or not.

Te examples you put are in my opinion not koans, although they are cool phrases

 

[Gaura Priya]

Just to get back on track, I find it sad that there aren't any more Shaivas out there. I think that sometimes by not focussing on one tradition, one does not get into the depth and beauty that the said tradition offers! When you have many different rituals, understandings of how to do things, different definitions for the same terminology, different Scriptures (Tirumantiram versus the Divya Prabandham), and just a different ethos, it just becomes so sad that in the name of 'I worship all the gods!' there is a sense of loss of tradition.

In the ISKCON temple that we have, there is a small Deity set of the holy family: Shiva bhagavan, Parvati-devi and Ganesha-ji, although I am sure that in the older days that wouldn't really be there in the first place! I was reading a Sri Vaishnava text that said that proper Vaishnavas should not even step into a non-Vaishnava temple, and that would definitely include those of Shaiva lineage! Although ISKCON and other Gaudiyas are Vaishnava, they still give allowance for people to observe Shivaratri and Dipavali, two festivals which really have nothing to do with Vaishnava philosophy in the first place.

Strictures aside, I totally respect and feel that Vinayaka's outlook on life is that of a pure devotee of Lord Shiva. If I were to ever look for the authentic teachings of Shaiva Siddhanta and imbibe the pure essence of Shaivism, it would be him!

I do not personally celebrate Shivaratri (but I do with Dipavali, Gaura Purnima, Krishna Janmashtami and Radhashtami), but the ISKCON temple has a celebration, and I have a few friends who are devotees of Lord Shiva.

 

[atanu]

Just to get back on track, I find it sad that there aren't any more Shaivas out there.----

Shiva is infinite. The spiritual paths, of which Rudra alone is the guide (as per Rudra Prashna), are many, if not infinite.

Which is the correct worship of Vishnu? Which is the correct worship of Shiva? Is anyone following all Vedic prescriptions for Rudra upasana ? (which again are many).

There are karma, jnana, bhakti methods -- and infinite mixing thereof. Who will validate the correct path and procedure?

Is Shiva dharma an abrahamic dharma?

 

[Vinayaka]

"What is the sound of One hand clapping"?

That's an easy one. Just rapidly open and close one hand, and you'll hear it.

 

[Vinayaka]

Just to get back on track,

Thank you. The original point was that one should not assume that all others have the same concept of God as you do. Therefore, my Siva is different from your Siva, and if we spread it to some Abrahamic ideas, even very different again, as Siva is associated as the Devil incarnate, mainly because of the trident.

 

[Me Myself]

Thank you. The original point was that one should not assume that all others have the same concept of God as you do. Therefore, my Siva is different from your Siva, and if we spread it to some Abrahamic ideas, even very different again, as Siva is associated as the Devil incarnate, mainly because of the trident.

And the snakes... And the destruction thing... And it being a non abrahamic abrahamic god

 

[atanu]

So, who then is Shiva?

 

[Me Myself]

So, who then is Shiva?

Shiva is, indeed.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

I would like to talk about one of the Shakta sects of Hinduism. We have a somewhat different takes on Shiva.

Kula is Shakti Akula is Shiva. Those who are proficient in meditation on both Kula and Akula are Kaulikas.-Kularnava Tantra

The goal for many are to join the Kundalini with Shiva. The Kaula is liberated by this union. They are One and always have been One. We call Divine Mother Narayani (She who exposes consciousness.) It is Shiva who is pure consciousness.

It is Shiva (pure consciousness) that watches the play of Maya. The two are really One. Both are One you can't have One with out the other.

 

[atanu]

Shiva is many things to many people. He is bhole; he is mendicant, meditator, lingam ....

Shiva Mahima Stotram says that it would be impossible even for Goddess Saraswati to write down all about Shiva.

For me, Shiva is Turiya, wherefrom the universe emerges and where it merges. The Turiya is :

The Turiya, the fourth (beyond three states of waking, dreaming, and sleeping), the Self, is OM, the indivisible syllable. This syllable is unutterable, and beyond mind. In it the manifold universe disappears. It is the supreme good–One without a second. Whosoever knows OM, the Self, becomes the Self.

And yet the desription is there:

The Turiya, say the wise, is not subjective experience, nor objective experience, nor experience intermediate between these two, nor is it a negative condition which is neither consciousness nor unconsciousness. It is not the knowledge of the senses, nor is it relative knowledge, nor yet inferential knowledge. Beyond the senses, beyond the understanding, beyond all expression, is The Fourth. It is pure unitary consciousness, wherein awareness of the world and of multiplicity is completely obliterated. It is ineffable peace. It is the supreme good. It is One without a second. It is the Self. Know it alone!

However, one can meditate on any of His form.

Om Namah Shivaya. Best wishes for Shiva lovers for Maha Shivaratri.

 

[Vinayaka]

Shiva is many things to many people. He is bhole; he is mendicant, meditator, lingam ....

Om Namah Shivaya. Best wishes for Shiva lovers for Maha Shivaratri.

An important point to remember in a discussion, else you may well be talking two quite different things. Like Indian from India and Indian the old term in North America denoting aboriginal. Just two different wavelengths. I would add 'all' to your list. To some people, he is all and in all.