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Who is the Baha’i Jesus and how does He differ from the Christian Jesus?
- Thread starter Dawnofhope
- Start date
Sorry CG, time very limited at the moment.
Stay happy and well, times are changing.
Regards Tony
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
I am not aware if any of Prophets or Manifestations of God called Himslef incarnation of God. Maybe They did symbolically. Jesus is the word in flash. Does that mean incarnation of God? Maybe.
That has been asked a lot of times CG. I gave the short answer above, by their Fruits you will know a Prophet. The Bible also gives a couple more requirements as to how to judge a True Prophet, one who speaks as God so wills, or one who speaks as Appointed by God.
Regards Tony
firedragon
Veteran Member
Exactly. Which means you are saying that God commanded but the prophets defied God. According to you they never called him "My Father" though he told them to. So they defied God.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
It is talking to Israel, meaning people of Israel (not specifically Prophets). I wouldn't see it as literally God is commanding them to call Him the Father. It is just an analogy, asking people of Israel to follow God, just as how children follow and obey their father! Meaning, the people of Israel were not obeying God, and God was not happy with them.
firedragon
Veteran Member
You maybe right. But he was quoting the Bible, and I am sticking to the Bible to be relevant. And it is in the New Testament that Adam is placed as God's son simply because there was no other before Adam. This is in the lineage of Jesus.
Yet, maybe Bahai's don't believe this. I am honestly yet to learn about that. But I do know that Bahaullah did not comment on Adam. Also, as far as my knowledge reaches, there is nothing concluding about evolution or any of the sort in Kithab al Aqdas or Kithab I iqan. But I have only read these two books so that's where my knowledge on the Bahai faith ends.
Anyway, Im only quoting the Bible to see what responses will be seen. Also, you should know that there are many many Muslim scholars who believe that Adam evolved, and Atthathweer is evolution. Thats an outside point since it was mentioned. Cheers.
MJFlores
Well-Known Member
Manifestations of God
Throughout the ages, humanity’s spiritual, intellectual and moral capacities have been cultivated by the Founders of the great religions, among them Abraham, Krishna, Zoroaster, Moses, Buddha, Jesus Christ, Muhammad, and—in more recent times—the Báb and Bahá’u’lláh.
Manifestations of God | What Bahá’ís Believe
Their declaration, their doctrine.
As I have pointed out Jesus is not a manifestation - he is a man without the ifestation.
The term "manifestation" is so vague that Baha'i could not identify it whether it is an animal, fruit or vegetable
This concept seeks to appease every religion but in the end resulted in a conflicting mumbo jumbo mixture of a religion. It is my opinion that some of the alleged manifestation's doctrine is in conflict with the others.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
One more time. This is what I asked...
Thank you. Then why make a character in a symbolic story a manifestation? And what else do we know about this manifestation 6000 years ago?
Okay, we know they were manifestations, but... how old was Noah? Was there a flood? The accounts we do have of these people do not describe a "perfectly" polished mirror, these people had flaws in their character like everybody else. Now to make them manifestations implies they were real historical people, but the stories about them are not true, they are symbolic... right? If so, then we know nothing about them.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Lots of bad stuff has been done by religion, so it's not all good fruit.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Okay. So your point now is that it was the people commanded, not the prophets. Aren't you looking for any answer you could think of with a predisposition?
You see you just referred to Jeremiah as a writer writing as a third party not involved in the conversation between God and the People. Alright, that's fine. You should know all the prophets mentioned in the Bible except for the one who came from Iraq are "bene yishrael". Everyone,
Anyway
"Wherefore David blessed the LORD before all the congregation; and David said: ‘Blessed be Thou, O LORD, the God of Israel our father, for ever and ever" - 1st Chronicles. Does David exclude himself from the rest of the "Bene Yisrael" in this? That was your new point.
Also you said that Gods commandment was not to the prophets but only the Israelites. If that is the case, does Ephraim not belong to the Israelites? Where is he from? He was called by God as Son and in fact the eldest born son. Was he not a prophet?
Again I tell you, Jesus says "your father" so many times. But you have completely ignored every occurrence. I find that strange. Also God is referred to as My father, he commands to be called My father, our father, he calls many people as Son, and if you read the Talmud it is still the same.
Children of God
In Matthew, peacemakers are called children of God. Children of God are many and scattered around the world according to the writer of John. According to Romans those everyone who follows the spirit of God or rather led by the spirit of God are children of God. According to Paul in Galatians you don’t have to follow the law because in Jesus, by faith all are children of God. The epistle of John clearly says it and differentiates between children of God and children of the devil. Its simply based on who is leading you.
Children of God
The bible explains that it is possible for all of us to be children of God.
See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! – 1 John 3:1 35
The scripture goes on to explain that the righteous are born of God and his seed remains in them
Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. Those who are born of God will not continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Those who do not do what is right are not God’s children; nor are those who do not love their brothers and sisters. – 1 John 3:7-10
The word “sperm” has been derived from the Greek word “Sperma” which means seed. When the epistle of John says that “whoever is born of God will not continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them”, that is the word used (Sperma=seed). Born or generated in Greek is “Gegenimenos” which is what we are described as if we live a righteous life. That does not mean we are all God’s or that we are all biological children of God.
Of course there are small variations. Like in the epistle of John it also cites that you should not only love god but also keep his commandments. A little hazy on what the commandments are because there is no stipulations as such.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Okay don't argue tell me what Baha'is really believe. You can put it in your own words and do that "spoiler" alert to show where what you say is supported by "official" Baha'i approved writings.Then you will ask why do we argue.
Regards Tony
MJFlores
Well-Known Member
That was a swarm of replies @Trailblazer
For what I have learned about Baha'i is that one of the alleged manifestation is Jesus Christ.
So it is wrong for you to say
Because I'm incapable of doing that. What I am capable of is to show people what is the straight Christian beliefs are from what is not.
I believe Paul has nothing to do with how people came up with a complicated Jesus version. People came up with different Jesuses because they want to pervert the gospel of Christ and establish their own form of religion to make money - and that is the only motive.
I believe if people would have an open mind, really search what is true and not what they presumed to be true - they won't be wasting money, time and effort for a religion that goes nowhere.
As I have posted a few days ago, people have invented different Jesuses. With regards to Baha'i Faith, your Jesus is a manifestation.
Catholics and Protestants would say their Jesus is Nicene. A Turkey, I mean from Turkey.
The Nicene Jesus is part of the Trinity and looks like this:
Practically a monster.
While the Mormon Jesus visited North America and met with the Indians.
Probably he had a tourist visa.
And the Jehovah Jesus is a mighty God [former archangel Micheal] while Jehovah is the Almighty God
The Muslim Jesus is different - he was never crucified and never died on the cross.
What does the Bible say about all of these?
2 Corinthians 11:3-4 New International Version (NIV)
But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.
So which is Baha'i Faith endorsing as their Jesus?
According to their website - he is a manifestation but the term is vague and not clear to its definition.
Next if the doctrines of Christ runs in conflict with the teachings of the other manifestations how do you resolve that?
For what I have learned about Baha'i is that one of the alleged manifestation is Jesus Christ.
So it is wrong for you to say
Because I'm incapable of doing that. What I am capable of is to show people what is the straight Christian beliefs are from what is not.
I believe Paul has nothing to do with how people came up with a complicated Jesus version. People came up with different Jesuses because they want to pervert the gospel of Christ and establish their own form of religion to make money - and that is the only motive.
I believe if people would have an open mind, really search what is true and not what they presumed to be true - they won't be wasting money, time and effort for a religion that goes nowhere.
As I have posted a few days ago, people have invented different Jesuses. With regards to Baha'i Faith, your Jesus is a manifestation.
Catholics and Protestants would say their Jesus is Nicene. A Turkey, I mean from Turkey.
The Nicene Jesus is part of the Trinity and looks like this:
Practically a monster.
While the Mormon Jesus visited North America and met with the Indians.
Probably he had a tourist visa.
And the Jehovah Jesus is a mighty God [former archangel Micheal] while Jehovah is the Almighty God
The Muslim Jesus is different - he was never crucified and never died on the cross.
What does the Bible say about all of these?
2 Corinthians 11:3-4 New International Version (NIV)
But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.
So which is Baha'i Faith endorsing as their Jesus?
According to their website - he is a manifestation but the term is vague and not clear to its definition.
Next if the doctrines of Christ runs in conflict with the teachings of the other manifestations how do you resolve that?
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Yes, he was quoting the Bible, but he believes that Adam and Eve were symbolic stories. So depending on what they are trying to show or prove, they can change how they use Bible verses. Here's a quote from Abdul Baha on how man "progressed".
In the world of existence man has traversed successive degrees until he has attained the human kingdom. In each degree of his progression he has developed capacity for advancement to the next station and condition. While in the kingdom of the mineral he was attaining the capacity for promotion into the degree of the vegetable. In the kingdom of the vegetable he underwent preparation for the world of the animal, and from thence he has come onward to the human degree, or kingdom. Throughout this journey of progression he has ever and always been potentially man. (`Abdu’l-Bahá, Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 225)
firedragon
Veteran Member
Good to know. Thanks a lot.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Yes, exactly. Everybody, that is in the major religions, was right.
You've probably already seen how they deal with presumed contradictions... Like Christians say Jesus rose from the dead. Baha'is say he didn't. But that would contradict. So Baha'is say he didn't "literally" or "physically" rise from the dead, that would be impossible. So he must have "spiritually" risen from the dead. Christians are just wrong in taking something that was symbolic as literal. They can do it to any and every apparent contradiction.
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ManSinha
Well-Known Member
and Effendi is dead wrong. That will never happen IMO. It has not happened in millennia and is about as unlikely as another “virgin” birth and a “resurrection”. The Baha’i are supposed to be non violent. IF they try to “impose” anything the others will simply wipe them out. See the history of my people and the Jewish people. Minorities but successfully wiped out or held their own against those that sought to impose their will. That is as stupidly IMO grandiloquent and untrue as Abdul’i’baha claiming that Bahaullah was Kalki.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Sorry about that MJFlores.
But that is what most Christians say, yet their belief are different from each other. How can that be resolved logically?
What I am capable of is to show people what is the straight Baha'i beliefs are from what is not, and Baha'i beliefs do not vary as the bedrock theology is shared by all Baha'is.
I can buy that the complicated Jesus was not all Paul's doing, but I do not think it was to make money either.
Yes, a Manifestation of God. Please read this carefully.
37: THE DIVINITY CAN ONLY BE COMPREHENDED THROUGH THE DIVINE MANIFESTATIONS
And also read this, because it explains what Baha'is believe about the NATURE of Jesus....
58: THE DEGREE OF KNOWLEDGE POSSESSED BY MAN AND THE DIVINE MANIFESTATIONS
Question.—Of what degree is the perception of the human world, and what are its limitations?
Answer.—Know that perception varies. The lowest degree of perception is that of the animals—that is to say, the natural feeling which appears through the powers of the senses, and which is called sensation. In this, men and animals are sharers; moreover, some animals with regard to the senses are more powerful than man. But in humanity, perception differs and varies in accordance with the different conditions of man.
The first condition of perception in the world of nature is the perception of the rational soul. In this perception and in this power all men are sharers, whether they be neglectful or vigilant, believers or deniers. This human rational soul is God’s creation; it encompasses and excels other creatures; as it is more noble and distinguished, it encompasses things. The power of the rational soul can discover the realities of things, comprehend the peculiarities of beings, and penetrate the mysteries of existence. All sciences, knowledge, arts, wonders, institutions, discoveries and enterprises come from the exercised intelligence of the rational soul. There was a time when they were unknown, preserved mysteries and hidden secrets; the rational soul gradually discovered them and brought them out from the plane of the invisible and the hidden into the realm of the visible. This is the greatest power of perception in the world of nature, which in its highest flight and soaring comprehends the realities, the properties and the effects of the contingent beings.
But the universal divine mind, which is beyond nature, is the bounty of the Preexistent Power. This universal mind is divine; it embraces existing realities, and it receives the light of the mysteries of God. It is a conscious power, not a power of investigation and of research. The intellectual power of the world of nature is a power of investigation, and by its researches it discovers the realities of beings and the properties of existences; but the heavenly intellectual power, which is beyond nature, embraces things and is cognizant of things, knows them, understands them, is aware of mysteries, realities and divine significations, and is the discoverer of the concealed verities of the Kingdom. This divine intellectual power is the special attribute of the Holy Manifestations and the Dawning-places of prophethood; a ray of this light falls upon the mirrors of the hearts of the righteous, and a portion and a share of this power comes to them through the Holy Manifestations.
The Holy Manifestations have three conditions: one, the physical condition; one, that of the rational soul; and one, that of the manifestation of perfection and of the lordly splendor. The body comprehends things according to the degree of its ability in the physical world; therefore, in certain cases it shows physical weakness. For example: “I was sleeping and unconscious; the breeze of God passed over Me and awoke Me, and commanded Me to proclaim the Word”; or when Christ in His thirtieth year was baptized, and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him; before this the Holy Spirit did not manifest itself in Him. All these things refer to the bodily condition of the Manifestations; but Their heavenly condition embraces all things, knows all mysteries, discovers all signs, and rules over all things; before as well as after Their mission, it is the same. That is why Christ has said: “I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last” 1 —that is to say, there has never been and never shall be any change and alteration in Me.
1. Cf. Rev. 22:13.
Some Answered Questions, pp. 217-219
But what you need to understand is that all these different kinds of Christians -- Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Baptists, Catholics, Protestants, etc. -- and ALL of them believe they have the REAL JESUS, and they are all reading from the same Bible. the Muslims also believe that they have the real Jesus.... So how can we know who the real Jesus is?
None of the above. For us Jesus was a Manifestation of God. [/quote]
According to their website - he is a manifestation but the term is vague and not clear to its definition. [/quote]
Well, in order to try to simplify what I posted above, here is my brief description of a Manifestation of God, and how that applies to Jesus. I posted this to a Christian on another forum a few months ago:
I do not believe that Jesus was 'just a man' and I do not think that Christianity would even be a religion if Jesus has been 'just a man.' It would be a philosophy. I say that because 'I believe' that religion is based upon a revelation from God
I believe that Jesus was a Manifestation of God. A Manifestation of God is not an ordinary man... If He was, there would be absolutely no reason to 'believe' Him at all. As a Manifestation of God, Jesus possessed two stations: one was the physical station pertaining to the world of matter, and the other was the spiritual station, born of the substance of God. In other words, one station is that of a human being, and one, of the Divine Reality. It is because Jesus had both a human and a divine station that He could act as mediator between God and man.
I believe that Jesus was a mirror image of God, reflecting God’s Self, God’s Beauty, God’s Might and Glory. As a Manifestation of God, Jesus was another order of creation above an ordinary man. He had a 'universal divine mind' that is different than ours, and that is why God was able to speak to Him through the Holy Spirit. I do not believe that God speaks to ordinary human beings because they would not have the 'capacity' to understand communication from God.
I do not know what you mean by "doctrines of Christ."
From my perspective the teachings of Jesus are separate from the Christian doctrines which are about Jesus, and the teachings of Jesus were purely spiritual and eternal, so they do not run counter to any of the great world religions since spiritual truths are the same throughout the religions. It is only the message for the age and the social teachings and laws that vary from religion to religion, from age to age.
“These principles and laws, these firmly-established and mighty systems, have proceeded from one Source, and are the rays of one Light. That they differ one from another is to be attributed to the varying requirements of the ages in which they were promulgated.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 287-288
That is why I see it is to the Messenger you look and not to the followers, I see the passages about the fruit is so we can determine a True Prophet from those that do bad stuff in the name of religion.
These passages tell us how to distinguish between a Prophet and one who is not;
Deuteronomy 18:20-22
But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.’ And if you say in your heart, ‘How may we know the word that the Lord has not spoken?’— when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him.
Matthew 7:16-20
You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.
And a key scripture;
1 John 4:1-3
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.
Regards Tony