who is the founder of christianity Jesus or Paul ?

[godnotgod]

Framing the Eden myth as being about a sin of disobedience is only one way of reading the story. It's also a relatively recent and specifically Christian way of understanding it. I wouldn't use that reading to understand ancient Jewish attitudes (or modern Jewish attitudes either, for the most part).

The Jewish account of Genesis is the same as that of the Christian account. Both tell of the disobedience of Adam and Eve. Here is the Jewish text from the Torah:

Genesis - Chapter 3 (Parshah Berei****) - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible

However, the doctrine of Original Sin and that it was inherited by all of mankind may have come later. The point of all this is to demonstrate the modern Christian view that the blood sacrifice of Jesus was necessary as the only means whereby the Gates of Paradise could be reopened after the sin of disobedience of Adam and Eve had closed them. But I am further suggesting (strongly) that the Jewish mystic called Yeshua never knew of this idea. Firstly, he was crucified by Rome for sedition on the one hand, and for blasphemy by the Jewish high priests on the other. Blood sacrifice as a means of sin redemption was never a consideration. That was added later from the Mithraic myth.

Now, having said all that, my own belief is that the account of Adam and Eve, both Jewish and Christian, are corrupted texts. The original story, probably from Persia, begins the same way, with God warning A&E about the 'Forbidden Fruit', but when God goes away, he then reappears to them as the serpent in order to insure that A&E partake of the Fruit, because the Fruit is a symbol of Higher Consciousness and Divine Union. IOW, God WANTS them to enjoy the free unconditional gift of Divine Union with him. Story end. No sin. No disobedience, and all's well that end's well. Remember that the serpent told A&E that God did not want them to eat of the Fruit because they would then 'see as God sees', which is none other than God Consciousness. God is simply using reverse psychology on his children with a kind of piece de resistance. Tell a child he can have anything he wants in his room, but of the box in the corner, he is not to open. Of course, the first thing the child will do is to open the box.

 

[Doug Shaver]

But a Christian is a follower of Christ.

All who call themselves Christians say they follow Christ. Some of us see no reason to think any of them actually does.

Jesus . . . was the one who proclaimed the doctrines, ordinances and organizational structure of His Church.

I see no reason to believe that, either.

 

[Katzpur]

All who call themselves Christians say they follow Christ. Some of us see no reason to think any of them actually does. I see no reason to believe that, either.

Yeah, well, differences of opinion are what make this world an interesting place.

(What is it with all the suddenly resurrected threads lately? This one's seven years old!)

 

[Doug Shaver]

(What is it with all the suddenly resurrected threads lately? This one's seven years old!)

I can't speak for anyone else, but I just got here, and to me, some of these old topics are still very interesting.

 

[Vishvavajra]

I see no reason to believe that, either.

Good reason to believe otherwise, in fact. There's no evidence that Jesus of Nazareth intended to form a new religion separate from Judaism, much less a church as we understand it today. Early Christianity had nothing like the structure of modern Christianity. For several decades after Jesus's death Christianity was still regarded as a strand of Judaism and developed in the synagogue. Over time Christians grew apart from other Jews and actively distanced themselves from them, thanks to various factors related to the politics of the age. Early churches appear to have been basically synagogues for Christians. Then it's another couple of centuries before you get the official Roman Church, at which point they start doing exactly what people do: claiming authority directly from the founder and pretending he instituted everything personally back in the very beginning, despite the fact that none of it existed at the time or for the first couple of centuries thereafter.

 

[truthofscripture]

All who call themselves Christians say they follow Christ. Some of us see no reason to think any of them actually does.


I see no reason to believe that, either.

I agree with you that anyone who is part of any religion calling itself Christian actually is not Christian, and Jesus NEVER started any church or religion. He started Christianity. He started NO religion. He called it the one true faith. Most who are part of Christendom, which is a religion claiming Christianity falsely, think Jesus is God, which he is not. They believe in a trinity, which is a pagan belief. Jesus condemned any religion with clergy, a church, and their own teachings differing from the scriptures and what Jesus taught. He said they were false, and were "works of the flesh". Revelation to John indicates that all such religions will be wiped from the Earth along with all of their participants, in the final battle. Christianity is belief that God IS, and that Jesus sacrificed his life for our sins, and that the scriptures are the only true doctrine. He said clergy were seeking only their own glory, and were not seeking glory for God.

 

[Desert Snake]

All who call themselves Christians say they follow Christ. Some of us see no reason to think any of them actually does.


I see no reason to believe that, either.

Xianity is more than just the 'words' in the Bible, Jesus's or otherwise. A similar statement would be like, 'I don't think Jews are following the OT to the letter, so they aren't practicing Judaism.'

 

[outhouse]

For several decades after Jesus's death Christianity was still regarded as a strand of Judaism and developed in the synagogue

Very correct, but more around a dinner table. They did Proselytize Hellenistic synagogues though. They were probably ran out of every one they entered.

And if I ever did a doctorate, not that I have a masters. But I would clarify how this early Judaism was not even really Judaism. At best it was Judaism light.

It was so Hellenized they were calling each other Jews simply by searing off pagan deities. Jews in this context simple meant wanting to follow monotheism to the one god. In all reality they were more Proselyte then Jewish.

It was definitely not Judaism as we know or think. It was the opposite of the Aramaic Judaism Jesus practiced.

Over time Christians grew apart from other Jews

What I see, was the separation from cultural Judaism by Hellenistic Judaism had started long before Jesus.

The people were primed for a reason to divorce Judaism, Jesus was the match that lit the wood pile full of tinder.

Diaspora Proselytes and Jews were much different then oppressed cultural Jews, and Aramaic Jews, and Essenes, and Zealots.

Some did mirror Pharisees and definitely the Sadducees.

I think the distinction from the outside looking in did look at these people as Jews.

But from the inside looking out, it had attracted gentiles early on who were not Jews, so there were some differences as soon as they started forming groups around a dinner table.

They also knew they were being blasphemous placing this much divinity on a man they wanted to outrun the Emperor.

So to add you your reply, I think the change was quite rapid instead of overtime. Bit yes looking in they appeared to be semi Jewish if one can even address that vague statement I hate.

Another doctorate, would be to get people to move away from the term Jewish for first century Judaism because it is so vague it is almost meaningless. Things really should be placed in context such as Aramaic Judaism when speaking about Jesus Judaism. Judaism need to be qualified almost any time you use it to be more specific, But its just my own pet peeve

 

[truthofscripture]

Xianity is more than just the 'words' in the Bible, Jesus's or otherwise. A similar statement would be like, 'I don't think Jews are following the OT to the letter, so they aren't practicing Judaism.'

Christendom does not follow what the scriptures teach. Christianity, which is not religions created by man, nor is it a sect or denomination, DOES follow the scriptures, and is a way of life. No religion of Christendom is a way of life whatsoever. They do not do the entire will of God. Christians do. Your argument isn't even honest, as you are injecting things into the previous post that aren't there. Face it, sects/denominations are FALSE RELIGION. They don't teach or adhere to the scriptures, or God's will.

 

[Doug Shaver]

Xianity is more than just the 'words' in the Bible, Jesus's or otherwise. A similar statement would be like, 'I don't think Jews are following the OT to the letter, so they aren't practicing Judaism.'

I'm not saying that Christians aren't practicing Christianity. Christianity, to me, is whatever Christians teach. And as far as I'm concerned, anybody who says they're a Christian is a Christian. They can argue among themselves all they like over which of them are the real Christians. Whether today's Christians believe anything that Christians of the first century believed (very unlikely, in my judgment) is beside the point.

 

[Desert Snake]

Christendom does not follow what the scriptures teach. Christianity, which is not religions created by man, nor is it a sect or denomination, DOES follow the scriptures, and is a way of life. No religion of Christendom is a way of life whatsoever. They do not do the entire will of God. Christians do. Your argument isn't even honest, as you are injecting things into the previous post that aren't there. Face it, sects/denominations are FALSE RELIGION. They don't teach or adhere to the scriptures, or God's will.

Well, I hope you are aware that interpretation varies. We don't need tradition to know that. And frankly, if I were following the literal NT, I don't think we would be agreeing on much more than we are now.

 

[Desert Snake]

I'm not saying that Christians aren't practicing Christianity. Christianity, to me, is whatever Christians teach. And as far as I'm concerned, anybody who says they're a Christian is a Christian. They can argue among themselves all they like over which of them are the real Christians. Whether today's Christians believe anything that Christians of the first century believed (very unlikely, in my judgment) is beside the point.

Slightly confused here, then. I thought you were saying that Xians aren't following the real teachings, my mistake, nevermind.

 

[Vishvavajra]

What I see, was the separation from cultural Judaism by Hellenistic Judaism had started long before Jesus.

I don't think that distinction holds up, historically. You seem to be rather purist about Judaism for some reason. I hope you haven't been drinking truthofscripture's Kool-Aid.

I don't think there's evidence of a significant division between Greek-speaking and Aramaic-speaking Jews in the Hellenistic period, beyond language and country of birth. There were some converts, but most Greek-speaking Jews were descended from emigrants from Judea to begin with. And nobody's seriously going to question the credentials of Philo, et al. That's like saying that American Jews aren't really Jews because they speak English instead of Hebrew. Or that European Ashkenazis weren't because they spoke Yiddish.

But setting those comparisons aside, the fact is that Judean culture was heavily influenced by Greek culture, just like every other people in the ancient Mediterranean. There were Hasmonean kings named Antigonus and Aristobulus, after all. Aristocratic Judeans went to gymnasium and had proper Greek educations. They studied Greek literature and philosophy, enjoyed Greek art, etc. And I'm talking about the Aramaic-speaking natives of Palestine here, not the ones in diaspora.

I could go on about how there's never been an essentially pure Jewish culture devoid of influence from any outside culture, but that would be pointless, as no such culture has ever existed anywhere. The point is that by the time of Jesus, Hellenism was not a foreign thing to the people in Judea; it was a well established part of the local culture. They were both Jews and citizens of the Hellenistic world at the same time, and they found ways to juggle both identities and reconcile them, as people do. So while they have no problem with Greek mythological statuary in bathhouses, palaces, etc., placing statues and foreign cult objects in the Jerusalem temple is a step too far.

As for modern Rabbinic Judaism, it's largely an outgrowth of the foundation laid by the Pharisees, who were themselves familiar with Greek ideas and philosophy. I'm not even sure it's possible to separate historical Judaism from Hellenic cultural influence. Josephus wrote his Jewish Antiquities seemingly in response to that problem, as an attempt to show that Jewish culture was just as old as Greek culture and just as sophisticated, but the very fact that he felt the need to do so just ends up confirming the importance of Greek culture.

In short, both Christianity and modern Judaism are products of Hellenistic Judaism. Modern Judaism falls more strongly on the Judaic side of the spectrum than the Hellenic, but it's not as if it didn't grow out of the meeting of cultures in that period. Christianity ultimately adopted more Hellenic ideas, but it's still a very far cry from Hellenic religion and retains its Judaic character to a surprising degree. Actual Greek religion would be a radical paradigm shift for most Christians.

 

[godnotgod]

Reza Aslan gives an interesting talk on Paul and Christianity in the following video, starting at about 36:50'

 

[Doug Shaver]

I thought you were saying that Xians aren't following the real teachings, my mistake, nevermind.

Not a problem. I have long noticed that it's very easy to get confused when people talk about religion.

 

[truthofscripture]

I'm not saying that Christians aren't practicing Christianity. Christianity, to me, is whatever Christians teach. And as far as I'm concerned, anybody who says they're a Christian is a Christian. They can argue among themselves all they like over which of them are the real Christians. Whether today's Christians believe anything that Christians of the first century believed (very unlikely, in my judgment) is beside the point.

That's strange. It's like ordering dinner in a restaurant and not ordering anything specific, just a meal. Who knows what you'll get. It may not even be food.

 

[Doug Shaver]

That's strange. It's like ordering dinner in a restaurant and not ordering anything specific, just a meal. Who knows what you'll get. It may not even be food.

I intended no suggestion that I wanted to order anything. I lost my appetite for religion many years ago.

 

[truthofscripture]

I intended no suggestion that I wanted to order anything. I lost my appetite for religion many years ago.

It is religions created by man which are false. It is the word of God that is true. They are in complete opposition to one another.

 

[Doug Shaver]

It is religions created by man which are false. It is the word of God that is true. They are in complete opposition to one another.

You say so. I have no reason to take your word for it.

 

[truthofscripture]

You say so. I have no reason to take your word for it.

And you shouldn't. You should, if you wanted to know the truth of the matter, check the scriptures to see if it's true.