whirlingmerc
Well-Known Member
In the servant songs a singular individual is given as a covenant for the people
Who would that be in a Jewish, Christian or Muslim view?
Who would that be in a Jewish, Christian or Muslim view?
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Who is the one given as a covenant for the people in Isaiah 49
- Thread starter whirlingmerc
- Start date
Crosstian
Baring the Cross
Jesus Christ.
Crosstian
Baring the Cross
Yep, Jesus is Israel:
Isa 49:5 And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.
Jesus is Israel (Matthew 2:13-15,19-21; Hosea 11:1; his children are his disciples; Hebrews 2:13; Isaiah 8:16,18; John 13:33), the true "overcomer" (John 16:33; Revelation 3:21), the real "Prince" with God (Isaiah 9:6; Daniel 8:11,25, 9:25, 10:13,21, 11:22, 12:1; Acts 3:15, 5:31; Revelation 1:5), being Lord over His own house, whose house are we (Psalms 98:3; Hebrews 3:6; Jeremiah 31:33), who himself is the "elect" (Isaiah 42:1; Matthew 12:18; 1 Peter 2:6) of the Father, in whom all the promises of God find their realization (2 Corinthians 1:20). The promises made by God were all based upon condition (Exodus 19).
Mat 2:13-15; Hos 11:1; Jer 31:33; Rom 9:6-8; Heb 2:13; Isa 8:16,18; Jhn 13:33, 16:33, 17:12, 18:9, 21:5; 1 Cor 15:46; 2 Cor 1:20; Gal 6:16; Heb 3:6, 8:8,10; Rev 3:21
'Israel' "after the flesh", as a 'nation', is left desolate (Matthew 23:38; Luke 13:35), to bear no more fruit ever again (Matthew 21:19), cursed, withered away (Mark 11:21), dried up from the roots (Mark 11:20), "twice dead" (Jude 1:12), and the axe already laid at their root (Matthew 3:10; Luke 3:9), cut down and to be thrown into the fire.
The New [or Everlasting] Covenant is only made with the spiritual “Israel” (Jesus Christ, the "elect" of the Father; Isaiah 42:1; Matthew 12:18-20), this “Judah” (Revelation 5:5) and His “house” (2 Corinthians 1:20 KJB - For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.; – for Christ Jesus, the true “Israel” is the “elect” of God, and thus all who choose to be in Him; see Isaiah 42:1, 45:4, 65:9 KJB):
Hebrews 3:6 KJB - But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
Isaiah 42:1 KJB - Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
Hebrews 8:5 KJB - Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
Hebrews 8:6 KJB - But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Hebrews 8:7 KJB - For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Hebrews 8:8 KJB - For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
[see Exodus 19:3-8 KJB, for the 'old covenant' is never, in all of scripture [KJB], the Ten Commandments [the perfect, righteousness, spiritual, holy, just and good and eternal Law of God; Psalms 19:7; Romans 9:31; Romans 7:14; James 1:25; Psalms 119:44-45; Romans 7:12; Psalms 89:34; Exodus 20:1-17, especially Exodus 20:8, “holy”, see Isaiah 58:13; 2 Peter 3:2 KJB], but was always the faulty promises of the peoples Israel after the flesh, made in agreement to do all that the LORD says. They failed. Why? Works and no Faith [Romans 9:32 KJB]. They [in general] attempted without God's strength [Revelation 12:10-12; Romans 5:6; 1 Corinthians 1:24 KJB], and though they were free physically, they were still slaves spiritually, that is of the heart and mind: 'all that the LORD hath said we will do', their faulty promises, and yet they did not, for they sinned by the golden calf.
The Everlasting Covenant (Galatians 3:15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though [it be] but a man's covenant, yet [if it be] confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.)
This New/Everlasting/Eternal Covenant [which existed before the 'old', even from eternity, for the Father and Son clasped hands in agreement, the Holy Ghost as Witness, should [when] sin [the mystery of iniquity] arise, they would work out the plan of Redemption, thus it is “the everlasting covenant” or the covenant of life and peace, or the counsel of peace, ratified by the blood of the Son of God Himself and by the Father in Heaven, see Psalms 89:3,28,34, 105:8; Isaiah 13:12, 42:6; Malachi 2:5 [Jesus is the True Levi, meaning attached unto His Father], 3:1; John 19:30 [he finished laying the foundation, the words were unto His Father], 17:24 [the agreement in eternity past was made, Jesus kept His word, performed His vows, and now the promise from the Father was to be fulfilled]; John 3:16; John 19:28; Hebrews 13:20; Revelation 13:8; Psalms 40:7-8; Hebrews 10:7-9; Psalms 116:14-18; Ezekiel 38:23; John 17:19; John 10:18; 8:28; Psalms 110:4; Zechariah 6:13, etc., etc. for surely as the Rainbow is above God's throne, so the covenant between Father and Son, witnessed by the Holy Ghost, is eternal], made between the Father and the Son in eternity, witnessd by the Holy Ghost, was “confirmed” [“he shall confirm the covenant with many” Daniel 9:27 and "confirmed" at the first by Jesus [Hebrews 2:3; Romans 15:8] and afterward by the disciples for the remaining time] by Jesus Christ, and was mentioned at the "Last Supper" [what we would call Thursday night] [“For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” Matthew 26:28; see also Mark 14:24 “my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many” and also Luke 22:20 “cup [is] the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you” and also 1 Corinthians 11:24 “This cup is the new testament in my blood”], and thus was ratified by the shed blood of Jesus at Calvary and thus by His death [Psalms 116:14,18, and ratified by the Father upon His ascension, Psalms 61:5], which means that nothing may be removed [Luke 23:56, "Sabbath (the 7th day; God's rest) according to the commandment"] and nothing may be added ["first" [day], cannot be added, as it is far too late from Calvary] once confirmed by the death [on what we would call Friday afternoon] of the Testator - Christ Jesus [Hebrews 10:29].
The only way to change/ratify the Covenant would be for Christ Jesus to die again [Hebrews 9:16-17] and shed additional blood [Hebrews 12:4]. And we know that Christ Jesus "once for all" [Hebrews 10:10] paid the redemption price and "dieth no more" [Romans 6:9], and is "alive for evermore" [Revelation 1:18].] is God's, “I will ...”, His Promise; more on this in detail later, as needed. The 'old covenant' is not the same as God's 'my covenant', which we establish by Faith [Romans 3:31 KJB]. They are two things, not one. God's Ten Commandments are all perfect promises, without fault.]
The "New" Covenant was 'ratified' by the blood of Christ Jesus, who fulfilled His vows, His side of the covenant.
Psa_116:14 I will pay my vows unto the LORD now in the presence of all his people.
Psa_116:18 I will pay my vows unto the LORD now in the presence of all his people,
It was 'ratified' by the Father after Christ Jesus ascended the first time, and accepted the Selfless Sacrifice of the Son.
Psa_61:5 For thou, O God, hast heard my vows: thou hast given me the heritage of those that fear thy name.
I'm not bothered about what any of your Christian Testament references say; anyone reading this chapter knows straight away it's about Israel. It even points that out. You don't just get to say, Oh it says Israel but it means Jesus - that's a cop out. If it meant Jesus it would say Jesus.
Crosstian
Baring the Cross
Didn't you read vs 5 that I gave? It clearly delineates Israel from Jacob. Two persons are mentioned. I even highlighted it for you.
2Co_3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
Firemorphic
Activist Membrane
Lol, @Rival entertaining that amusing gesture, imagine all of those absurdities applied to this passage (and factoring in the anti-rational Trinity while we're at it 
)
One of the scribes came near and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, he asked him, “Which commandment is the first of all?” Jesus answered, “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is one; you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ The second is this, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”
Then the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that ‘he is one, and besides him there is no other’; and ‘to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the strength,’ and ‘to love one’s neighbor as oneself,’—this is much more important than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.”
When Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” After that no one dared to ask him any question.
Mark 12:28-34
) One of the scribes came near and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, he asked him, “Which commandment is the first of all?” Jesus answered, “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is one; you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ The second is this, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”
Then the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that ‘he is one, and besides him there is no other’; and ‘to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the strength,’ and ‘to love one’s neighbor as oneself,’—this is much more important than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.”
When Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” After that no one dared to ask him any question.
Mark 12:28-34
The prophet is speaking of himself there and is using Jacob and Israel interchangeably, as is often the case as it was the same man.
And now, the Lord, Who formed me (Isaiah) from the womb as a servant to Him, said to bring Jacob (Israel) back to Him, and Israel (Jacob) shall be gathered to Him, and I will be honored in the eyes of the Lord, and my God was my strength.
Crosstian
Baring the Cross
You're thinking of Roman Catholicism. I do not believe in Roman Catholicism's "trinity". It makes of God nothing in the end (definition from such upon request). What the Bible (KJB) teaches is a trio of Persons/Beings; namely the person/being of the Father, the person/being of the Son, and the person/being of the Holy Spirit, all working together, like as unto a chord (in music).
So, the Bible doesn't teach the spiritualism (satanic) of Roman Catholicism. The Father is not a perfume, not an aethereal essence pervading the universe.
Mat_6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Mat_16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Luk_11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.
Mat_16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Luk_11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.
He, the Father, is a "Person", even His person (Job 13:8; Hebrews 1:3), of which Jesus (the Son) is the "express image" of.
As for the rest, see "His person" (Job 13:8); "form of God" (Philippians 2:6), "shape" (John 5:37), "image" (Genesis 1:26,27; Hebrews 1:3), "likeness" (Genesis 1:26,27), "being" (Acts 17:28), has a very real movable "Throne" on which He sits (Daniel 7:9-10; Revelation 4-5, &c), has "the hair of his head like the pure wool" (Daniel 7:9), "whose garment was white as snow" (Daniel 7:9), has a "right hand" (Revelation 5:1; Acts 7:55-56), able to be looked upon, "to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone" (Revelation 4:2), having His own "nature" (Galatians 4:8).
See also "back parts" (Exodus 33:23), and even a "divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4), see also "under his feet" (Exodus 24:20).
The angels are also called 'spirits' and "persons" ("fellows"; Hebrews 1:9), "young man" (Mark 16:5; Daniel 9:21; &c), and yet have real celestial (Heavenly) "bodies" with unfallen angelic "flesh" (1 Corinthians 15:35-58; Jude 1:7, Genesis 17-19, &c) an unfallen heavenly "nature" (Hebrews 2:16), where as we have bodies terrestrial (dust).
The Son is also a "person" (Hebrews 1:3; 2 Corinthians 2:10; Matthew 27:24; Deuteronomy 27:25; &c).
So is the Holy Ghost (John 14:16; &c)
Mankind are also called 'spirits' (1 Peter 3:19; Hebrews 12:23) and yet are real tangible beings, with bodies (made of dust).
Philippians 2:6; Daniel 3:25; Genesis 18:4, 19:2; Exodus 24:10-11; Psalms 18:9; John 5:37; Exodus 33:23,20,22; Daniel 7:9-10,13; Ezekiel 1:1,8,26-28; Acts 7:55-56; Psalms 24:1-10; John 20:17; 1 Peter 3:22; Matthew 18:10; Revelation 1:13-20, 2:1, 4:1-11, 5:1-14; Hebrews 1:13; Colossians 1:3-6; Numbers 12:8; Isaiah 45:23, 48:3; Revelation 3:16; Psalms 89:34; Psalms 104:33, 146:2; Acts 17:28; Genesis 1:26-27; Colossians 1:15; &c.
Crosstian
Baring the Cross
"... PERSONALITY OF GOD
MAN was made in the image of God. "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness." "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him." Gen.i,26,27. See also chap.ix,6; 1Cor.xi,7. Those who deny the personality of God, say that "image" here does not mean physical form, but moral image, and they make this the grand starting point to prove the immortality of all men. The argument stands thus: First, man was made in God's moral image. Second, God is an immortal being. Third, therefore all men are immortal. But this mode of reasoning would also prove man omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent, and thus clothe mortal man with all the attributes of the deity. Let us try it: First, man was made in God's moral image. Second, God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. Third, therefore, man is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. That which proves too much, proves nothing to the point, therefore the position that the image of God means his moral image, cannot be sustained. As proof that God is a person, read his own words to Moses: "And the Lord said, Behold there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock; and it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a cleft of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by. And I will take away mine hand and thou shalt see my [2] back parts; but my face shall not be seen." Ex.xxxiii,21-23. See also chap.xxiv,9-11. Here God tells Moses that he shall see his form. To say that God made it appear to Moses that he saw his form, when he has no form, is charging God with adding to falsehood a sort of juggling deception upon his servant Moses. {1861 JW, PERGO 1.1}
But the skeptic thinks he sees a contradiction between verse 11, which says that the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, and verse 20, which states that Moses could not see his face. But let Num.xii,5-8 remove the difficulty. "And the Lord came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam, and they both came forth. And he said, Hear now my words. If there be a prophet among you, I, the Lord, will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream. My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house. With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently." {1861 JW, PERGO 2.1}
The great and dreadful God came down, wrapped in a cloud of glory. This cloud could be seen, but not the face which possesses more dazzling brightness than a thousand suns. Under these circumstances Moses was permitted to draw near and converse with God face to face, or mouth to mouth, even apparently. {1861 JW, PERGO 2.2}
Says the prophet Daniel, "I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hairs of his head like the pure wool; his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire." Chap.vii,9. "I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him, and [3] there was given him dominion and glory and a kingdom." Verses 13, 14. {1861 JW, PERGO 2.3}
Here is a sublime description of the action of two personages; viz, God the Father, and his Son Jesus Christ. Deny their personality, and there is not a distinct idea in these quotations from Daniel. In connection with this quotation read the apostle's declaration that the Son was in the express image of his Father's person. "God, who at sundry times, and in divers manners, spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person." Heb.i,1-3. {1861 JW, PERGO 3.1}
We here add the testimony of Christ. "And the Father himself which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape." John v,37. See also Phil.ii,6. To say that the Father has not a personal shape, seems the most pointed contradiction of plain scripture terms.
OBJECTION. - "God is a Spirit." John iv,24. {1861 JW, PERGO 3.2}
ANSWER. - Angels are also spirits [Ps.civ,4], yet those that visited Abram and Lot, lay down, ate, and took hold of Lot's hand. They were spirit beings. So is God a Spirit being. {1861 JW, PERGO 3.3}
OBJ. - God is everywhere. Proof. Ps.cxxxix,1-8. He is as much in every place as in any one place. {1861 JW, PERGO 3.4}
ANS. - 1. God is everywhere by virtue of his omniscience, as will be seen by the very words of David referred to above. Verses 1-6. "O Lord, thou hast searched me, and known me. Thou knowest my down-sitting and mine uprising; thou understandest my thought afar off. Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways. For there is not a [4] word in my tongue, but, lo, O Lord, thou knowest it altogether. Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thy hand upon me. Such knowledge is too wonderful for me. It is high; I cannot attain unto it." {1861 JW, PERGO 3.5}
2. God is everywhere by virtue of his Spirit, which is his representative, and is manifested wherever he pleases, as will be seen by the very words the objector claims, referred to above. Verses 7-10. "Whither shall I go from thy Spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there; if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me." {1861 JW, PERGO 4.1}
God is in heaven. This we are taught in the Lord's prayer. "Our Father which art in heaven." Matt.vi,9; Luke xi,2. But if God is as much in every place as he is in any one place, then heaven is also as much in every place as it is in any one place, and the idea of going to heaven is all a mistake. We are all in heaven; and the Lord's prayer, according to this foggy theology simply means, Our Father which art everywhere, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth, as it is everywhere. {1861 JW, PERGO 4.2}
Again, Bible readers have believed that Enoch and Elijah were really taken up to God in heaven. But if God and heaven be as much in every place as in any one place, this is all a mistake. They were not translated. And all that is said about the chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and the attending whirlwind to take Elijah up into heaven, was a useless parade. They only evaporated, and a misty vapor passed through the entire universe. This is all of Enoch and Elijah that the mind can possibly grasp, admitting that God and heaven are [5] no more in any one place than in every place. But it is said of Elijah that he "went up by a whirlwind into heaven." 2Kings ii,11. And of Enoch it is said that he "walked with God, and was not, for God took him." Gen.v,24. {1861 JW, PERGO 4.3}
Jesus is said to be on the right hand of the Majesty on high." Heb.i,3. "So, then, after the Lord had spoken unto them he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God." Mark xvi,19. But if heaven be everywhere, and God everywhere, then Christ's ascension up to heaven, at the Father's right hand, simply means that he went everywhere! He was only taken up where the cloud hid him from the gaze of his disciples, and then evaporated and went everywhere! So that instead of the lovely Jesus, so beautifully described in both Testaments, we have only a sort of essence dispersed through the entire universe. And in harmony with this rarified theology, Christ's second advent, or his return, would be the condensation of this essence to some locality, say the mount of Olivet! Christ arose from the dead with a physical form. "He is not here," said the angel, "for he is risen as he said." Matt.xxviii,6. {1861 JW, PERGO 5.1}
"And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail! And they came and held him by the feet, and they worshiped him." Verse 9. {1861 JW, PERGO 5.2}
"Behold my hands and my feet," said Jesus to those who stood in doubt of his resurrection, "that it is I myself. Handle me and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see me have. And when he had thus spoken, he showed them his hands and his feet. And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? And they gave him a piece of broiled fish, and of an honey-comb, and he took it and did eat before them." Luke xxiv,39-43. {1861 JW, PERGO 5.3} [6]
After Jesus addressed his disciples on the mount of Olivet, he was taken up from them, and a cloud received him out of their sight. "And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold two men stood by them in white apparel, which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." Acts i,9-11. J. W. {1861 JW, PERGO 6.1}
Crosstian
Baring the Cross
IMMATERIALITY
THIS is but another name for nonentity. It is the negative of all things and beings - of all existence. There is not one particle of proof to be advanced to establish its existence. It has no way to manifest itself to any intelligence in heaven or on earth. Neither God, angels, nor men could possibly conceive of such a substance, being, or thing. It possesses no property or power by which to make itself manifest to any intelligent being in the universe. Reason and analogy never scan it, or even conceive of it. Revelation never reveals it, nor do any of our senses witness its existence. It cannot be seen, felt, heard, tasted, or smelled, even by the strongest organs, or the most acute sensibilities. It is neither liquid nor solid, soft nor hard - it can neither extend nor contract. In short, it can exert no influence whatever - it can neither act nor be acted upon. And even if it does exist, it can be of no possible use. It possesses no one, desirable property, faculty, or use, yet, strange to say, immateriality is the modern Christian's God, his anticipated heaven, his immortal self - his all! {1861 JW, PERGO 6.2}
O sectarianism! O atheism!! O annihilation!!! [7]
who can perceive the nice shades of difference between the one and the other? They seem alike, all but in name. The atheist has no God. The sectarian has a God without body or parts. Who can define the difference? For our part we do not perceive a difference of a single hair; they both claim to be the negative of all things which exist - and both are equally powerless and unknown. {1861 JW, PERGO 6.3}
The atheist has no after life, or conscious existence beyond the grave. The sectarian has one, but it is immaterial, like his God; and without body or parts. Here again both are negative, and both arrive at the same point. Their faith and hope amount to the same; only it is expressed by different terms. {1861 JW, PERGO 7.1}
Again, the atheist has no heaven in eternity. The sectarian has one, but it is immaterial in all its properties, and is therefore the negative of all riches and substances. Here again they are equal, and arrive at the same point. {1861 JW, PERGO 7.2}
As we do not envy them the possession of all they claim, we will now leave them in the quiet and undisturbed enjoyment of the same, and proceed to examine the portion still left for the despised materialist to enjoy. {1861 JW, PERGO 7.3}
What is God? He is material, organized intelligence, possessing both body and parts. Man is in his image. {1861 JW, PERGO 7.4}
What is Jesus Christ? He is the Son of God, and is like his Father, being "the brightness of his Father's glory, and the express image of his person." He is a material intelligence, with body, parts, and passions; possessing immortal flesh and immortal bones. {1861 JW, PERGO 7.5}
What are men? They are the offspring of Adam. They are capable of receiving intelligence and exaltation to such a degree as to be raised from the dead with a body like that of Jesus Christ, [8] and to possess immortal flesh and bones. Thus perfected, they will possess the material universe, that is, the earth, as their "everlasting inheritance." With these hopes and prospects before us, we say to the Christian world who hold to immateriality, that they are welcome to their God - their life - their heaven, and their all. They claim nothing but that which we throw away; and we claim nothing but that which they throw away. Therefore, there is no ground for quarrel or contention between us. {1861 JW, PERGO 7.6}
We choose all substance - what remains
The mystical sectarian gains;
All that each claims, each shall possess,
Nor grudge each other's happiness.
An immaterial God they choose,
For such a God we have no use;
An immaterial heaven and hell,
In such a heaven we cannot dwell.
We claim the earth, the air, and sky,
And all the starry worlds on high;
Gold, silver, ore, and precious stones,
And bodies made of flesh and bones.
Such is our hope, our heaven, our all,
When once redeemed from Adam's fall;
All things are ours, and we shall be,
The Lord's to all eternity. {1861 JW, PERGO 8.1} ..." - Personality of God, by James Springer White, 1861, pages 1.1 - 8.1
Crosstian
Baring the Cross
Amazing that you have to add your own words to the text in context. Sad. Watch, I'll simply quote it in context and highlight the words already in the text, pronoun to noun, ready?
Isa 49:1 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.
Isa 49:2 And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;
Isa 49:3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.
Isa 49:4 Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the LORD, and my work with my God.
Isa 49:5 And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.
Isa 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
Isa 49:7 Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.
Now all that was needed, was the above, but if you desire to continue:
Did you read vs 6, "give thee", compare:
Isa_9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 49:7, shows that two persons are speaking in context. Father ("the LORD") and ("his") Son ("Holy One"). The Father chose the Son, thus see, vs 4 (where the Son is speaking back to the Father). Isaiah was simply listening in. Isaiah was never the light to the Gentiles. Isaiah was never the "salvation" of God, and definitely not to "the ends of the earth", as Jesus is. Yet, Jesus name means, "JEHOVAH is my salvation", which is why through scripture, OT, we read of "Jesus (Yeshua) JEHOVAH". Isaiah 49:16, even refer to the crucifixion of Jesus, being "graven thee upon the palms of my hands".
All throughout Isaiah, JEHOVAH states that He will be the saviour, walking among men. Isaiah 28, told you a much, that the Son (Immanuel; God with us) would be given children from the Father, and that they would be his disciples.
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You are right, but I just dislike the idea of any audience being fooled. Also, I'm on a debate forum, come on, I may as well get it out of my system
If you cannot accept that you are wrong based on the text itself specifying who it is talking about then you've no business dealing with scripture at all. The passage is abundantly clear who the servant is; you are just reading your man into it. If he hadn't existed, you wouldn't see him anywhere. If the scripture itself tells you it's talking about Israel, which it does, you can't be helped further. If I repeatedly refer to you as Mike and you tell me your name is Edward and I refuse to call you Edward and insist on calling you Mike, who is in the wrong here?
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
Quite amazing those who only believe in the old testament scripture when they deny the new can't see what the old points to just like those who deny the old get lost in the new.
You know the saying; No man puts a piece of new cloth to an old garment, for that which is put in to fill it up takes from the garment, and the rent is made worse. Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runs out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.
How sad it is to buy a plane ticket for your holiday not knowing you have missed the plane while continuing to wait in the airport.
God bless
moorea944
Well-Known Member
Correct. Everyone's bringing up other verses about Christ, but it has nothing to do with Isaiah 49. Isaiah is a prophet who was sent to Israel to bring them back to God. To have Israel change their evil ways. That is one of the main purposes of a prophet. To bring the people back to God. Some prophets were assigned to Jerusalem, or outer Israel or somewhere completely different.
And that is what God is doing with the Lord Jesus Christ now. (2 Cor 5) (and other verses to). "To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself" God was and is working through his son to bring us back to him.
I mostly agree with you until the second part
moorea944
Well-Known Member
I mostly agree with you until the second part
What second part my friend? About God working through Christ to reconcile the world back to Him?
Yeah, I am not a Christian.