F0uad
Well-Known Member
Numbers 23:19 disagrees.
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Who IS "The Only TRUE God"- as Jesus put it?
- Thread starter theMadJW
- Start date
Why did G_d pray to himself on the cross ?
Shermana
Heretic
The word "good" as in "Good shepherd" is different than the one of "Why do you call me good". Paul also calls himself the "Good soldier" with the same word Jesus uses for "GOOD" Shepherd. So is Paul calling himself God? No. Therefore, Jesus is not calling himself God by calling himself the "Good shepherd".
You're right, people who aren't involved in the original Church shouldn't necessarily have authority on what it says. That's why "Messianic Jews" (aka Nazarenes) should have prime authority on what it says. As for the people who "assembled it", that's a lot different than the people who "wrote it".
What do you think it means to be the "bright and morning star" exactly? Is he referring to the sun? How does that jive with:
Hmmm, who is the Morning star exactly?
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kjw47
Well-Known Member
One must apply the facts of history--- Moses wrote genesis--Its 100% fact the israelites all throughout the ot down to this day served the God of Abraham, Moses,David,Job,Isaiah,Daniel,Elijah,etc--- They all served the true God--Every one of them served YHWH(Jehovah) a single being God. Its israelite history fact. undisputable fact. That is why Jesus can make this true claim-- rev 3:12.
First of all, God is Spirit not physical.
Jesus prayed that his followers be 'one' as he and his Father are one.
Surely Jesus was not praying they all be God. [John 17 vs 11,21,22,23]
However, they could all be one in faith, purpose, unity, goal, etc.
If I were to say to you 'let us go somewhere' wouldn't you understand that to mean 'You and I' [2] persons?
So, who was God talking to at Genesis 1 v 26; 3 v 22 ?
Was God talking to himself ? [if all three are God then God was talking to himself], Or rather was God talking to the beginning of the creation by God?
Revelation [3 v 14 B] mentions Jesus as that beginning creation.
Remember only God is from everlasting according to Psalm 90 v 2.
So, only the Un-created God was before the beginning.
Jesus was not before the beginning as God was before the beginning.
God and Jesus are always addressed in the masculine never neuter.
However, God's spirit is sometimes addressed in the neuter because at Romans [8 vs 16, 26] and Numbers [11 vs 16,17,25] God's spirit is an 'it' or 'itself' [neuter].
Even in English sometimes a neuter such as a ship is called as a she.
Yet we know a ship is not as male or female but an 'it' [neuter].
Psalm [104 v 30] talks about the power or energy God's spirit force has in that when God sends forth his spirit things are created.
So, the 'us' [plural] in Genesis is God talking to his only-begotten heavenly Son.
God's only direct creation because all else comes through Jesus.
icebuddy
Does the devil lift Jesus up?
However, God does have a physical image. The physical Image of God is Jesus.
Jesus has a unique way to look at things for he is both the Root(creator) and the offspring(man) of David. So when he prays for the followers to be one with the Father, he is meaning this to be from a mans side of things. For we can never be one with the Father as Jesus is one with the Father in all his completeness. For we cannot be the image of the invisible God holding all things together by our supreme being as they can. My main point is that not only is Jesus one with the Father in purpose(in which this prayer is about), Jesus is also one in being(that which makes God God) with the Father.
You are thinking like a limited man. If you were a 3D being and wanted to visit a 2D world, Could the 2D people correctly explain that which they do not know?
Jesus as the beginning.. The Father is called the beginning and end, does that mean he has a beginning to or an end? You are forcing things in my opinion. John 1:3 says "NOTHING" was created apart from Jesus and John 1:1 says in the beginning was already the Word(JEsus). If you look to 1John 1-4 you will read that the Word is Eternal life and was always existing before there was a beginning. Rev 3:14 is saying that Jesus is the Creater the beginner of the creation of God, not that he is part of creation itself.
Psalm 90:2 could also be said of Jesus. Jesus is the same yesterbay, today, and forever. Hebrews 1:10-12 with Ps 102:25-27
Read Genesis 1:1 and john 1:1-3, John wanted us to know that the God who created the heavens and the earth is more than the Jews pictured. That this God of love was able to love within the God head before he created anything. That the Eternal Word of Life was always there with God and is also God.
In Love,
tom
It depends on whom you ask. Some say there is one god, others say more than one. The real answer is that the only god that exists is the one YOU want to believe in, unless it can be proven otherwise (which it can't).
Shermana
Heretic
Being the Image of is not the same as being the Being. Jesus is the representative.
He's not the Creator, but the Vehicle of which Creation was made THROUGH, as the Firstborn of Creation, the Personification of Wisdom.
Scripture does not say this whatsoever.
That has nothing to do with being the Image.
As long as you understand that's not scriptural.
And to not be a limited man means to accept any and all interpretations?
Jesus was the Beginning OF CREATION. Meaning, he was the First Created Soul.
Trinitarians force things in my opinion.
Yes, all things were made THROUGH the Firstborn of Creation, see Proverbs 8.
It doesn't mean the Word already existed neccessarily, the meaning of "beginning" is a bit disputable. Does it refer to the beginning of Creation? Possibly.
Nothing in 1 John says anything close to this, what verse are you thinking of specifically?
Talk about forcing things, it doesn't really say that at all.
Wanna go over those verses individually?
Read Proverbs 8 and Philo's Logos Theology which John and his intended audience were probably well acquainted with, John was trying to tell us that the "Firstborn of Creation", Wisdom incarnated, was the means which God's Creation came THROUGH.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Good for you!
icebuddy
Does the devil lift Jesus up?
You are using your human limitations here. We believe God supplied his Image of himself using his own being to do so. That God in some fashion entered our realm of time while remaining in heaven at the same time. For he is God and Creator of all things, so he can do what he wants with no limitations.
This sounds very dangerous to me, saying Jesus is NOT the creator. I feel Jesus's pain on that one... If God has hands, God Created with his own hands. For someone to say Gods hands didnt create but only was a Vehicle is very odd to me. Everything was created For Jesus and by Jesus. We believe so different that i see many other problems. For example: i believe we are Body, Soul, and Spirit made like our creator who is also 3 in 1. For me if my Body Created something, my Body and Soul also created with my body in union. (Thats as simple as i can explain it)
The Bible says it so clear i cant see how one doesnt see it. I wrote: So when he prays for the followers to be one with the Father, he is meaning this to be from a mans side of things. For we can never be one with the Father as Jesus is one with the Father in all his completeness. Jesus was a man when he prays and is an example for us humans to follow. We cannot be the Eternal Word of Life as Jesus is with the Father. So the example for us to be one with the Father is the way Jesus shows through his humanity on earth. No one can say they Created like Jesus can or Say Im the Word or Life, or i am they way or anything Jesus can claim. (Sounds LDS-ish to me) We can only be one with the Father as Humans and Jesus shows us through his human existance how this is done.
Again I wrote: For we cannot be the image of the invisible God holding all things together by our supreme being as they can. Are you saying that Jesus being the Image if the invisible God has nothing to do with him being the Image? Again, Jesus prays for us to be one with God the Father as Jesus's Human existance is one with God. We can never be one with God in the unique way Jesus is. (creator, maker, saviour, begotten son, and many more) To think otherwise borders what LDS believe...
I wrote: My main point is that not only is Jesus one with the Father in purpose(in which this prayer is about), Jesus is also one in being(that which makes God God) with the Father.
Are we reading a different bible? its all over scripture. Jesus is Jehovah our Righteousness! Could you say that and be proud of it or nervous that you said something wrong? (Does anyone say this at your church would be a good question for you to ask yourself) BTW, Something that could never be said of regular Humans like you and me. Their Oneness is not the same as ours....
I dont follow you here. We have the Holy Spirit guiding us today into all truth that our human limitations cannot understand.
Talking about "Interpretations"! The Father God is called "the Beginning and End" of all things. I would expect Jesus to also be called the "Beginning and End" of all Creation as well. Your Jesus is expressing a lesser God when Jesus should be expressing God Fully and exactly. Jesus is the Beginning and the End of all Creation! Just as the Father is the Beginning and End. BTW, do you think the Father has a beginning too? the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the Beginners of all things. Do not let OLD LANGUAGE get in the way with new English. the Greek word Arche translated beginning here carries the meaning of Architect as that is the English word derived from the Greek word Arche. Jesus is the beginner of all things (John 1:3 agrees with this statement)
I understand your thoughts. I am here to clear that up if all possible. My hope is that everyone is saved by Grace through what our Glorious Lord Jesus has done for us! If you die today, do you know that you will be saved through this grace? that is why we are here, to save souls through the good news!
Wisdom in Proverbs is a personification of the virtue of wisdom for the purpose of emphisis of impact. Wisdom was "BROUGHT FORTH" (not created) to play a role in creation. Proverbs 3:19 God used his Wisdom, Understanding, and Knolledge to creat the world and everything in it. God did not have to Create his Wisdom, Understanding, and his knolledge but rather brought them forth, he possessed them from all eternity. He produced them as one produces evidence that already exist in a court.
What does John 1:3 say? Also Read 1John1:1-4, the Word was the Eternal Word of Life. i believe it calls the word the "Everlasting life that was with the Father". Now you are here telling people that this was created and that God had no wisdom before and had to create it? I'm looking at this from a distance and it looks very questionable from my view point.
Ill pull out my NWT which is a anti-trinitarian bible on this: Now remember that while reading this that you believe the Word was Created and had no existance at a point in eternity. Verse 1 says the "Word of Life" and verse 2 says "the Everlasting life which was with the Father". Does that sound created to you? Which brings me to a point i must make. That Jesus had Eternal Life before he emptied himself to become a man and that God Gave this eternal Life Back to him that he had before he emptied himself of it.
Ok, Is the Father called the Beginning and End of all creation? Does he have a Beginning or an end? Then why force Jesus to have a beginning when Jesus is expressing the Fathers being fully and exactly as stated in Hebrews 2? Explain that and see what you mean by forcing things again...
The Bible is a whole and should be read in context of the writing at hand. What we need to do is pray for each other and pray that God shows his truths through the Holy Spirit and not mans truths.
I dont disagree with your statement in whole, but we disagree on the terms you use:
"Firstborn of Creation" - i believe Jesus is Firstborn the day he became human as Mary and God the Father now have a Firstborn son some 2000 years ago. that just as King David was jesses Firstborn son, he was the last son to be born. That the word Firstborn to a Jew meant the Son who will inherit the full portion of their Fathers kingdom. That Jesus is not only Creator of all things, that he is also heir to it, as the bible says
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
Wisdom incarnated - Gods Wisdom always existed. he brought it forth and produced it for his creation.
God's Creation came THROUGH Jesus - God created Through Jesus in the same way you build things Through your hands. i dont separate God and his word in creation, I believe they created in Harmony with each other. If I was to ask the Father God, he would credit Jesus with creating too.
in Love,
tom
Shermana
Heretic
And your interpretation doesn't?
Just because He can doesn't mean He did.
I'll take my chances.
I don't think that's his pain you feel.
.
Well it wasn't odd to Philo or the author of Proverbs 8.
Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Nuh uh.
So like I said, there's nothing in the scripture that really says it like that that Jesus being One with the Father means being the same being. He is one in Purpose and Unity. He just had more privelege and power.
It means he's the representative, not the avatar.
Well I guess my view borders what LDS believe, so what? Even then, that's assuming you get what I'm saying correctly.
Yes you wrote that and I disagree with it.
No, it says Jehovah IS our righteousness. I have pointed this out to you before. The translations that omit the "is" are being straight out dishonest as I've shown elsewhere.
I feel very proud and at peace with saying that.
I don't go to a "Church".
What makes you think you have the HS and that Mormons don't? Do Catholics not have it? Do JWs not have it? Do only people who believe like you have it? How do you prove that you have it and others don't exactly?
Yes, it's my interpretation, you just don't like it.
The word "Arche" carries the meaning of architect? Prove it. I don't want to have to repeat what I said about Jesus being the vehicle through which all creation is made THROUGH.
Not possible. Likewise, I don't think its possible you would agree with what I say either no matter how much evidence.
No one knows if they are saved or not. Claiming to know that you are saved is a very recent invention, it was heretical for most of church history. I can only do my best and let God decide.
Brought force means to be created, I don't see how you derive the difference. Anyways, this understanding of Wisdom is not exactly my own. It was Philo's too.
God had wisdom, but he created the personified being called Wisdom to embody it.
I
Yes it sounds created. And the word "Eternal" is more like age-long.
No, the Father has no beginning or end. Jesus does. Jesus is the beginning of His created beings.
Very well, may God show the one of us who is in error that he's in error most undeniably, in the name of the Messiah.
Firstborn still implies a person who is born and generated. Also, the word 'Firstborn" is used exclusively literal in the Greek, only metaphorically in the Hebrew a few times and mostly literally.
The word "Dia" means more or less THROUGH, it CAN be read as "by" but only in the sense of "Through".
What do you think "brought it forth" means exactly?
Right, so you agree that it came THROUGH, not "by" as you're using the word "by". I agree that God would credit Jesus for his role in Creation too.
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icebuddy
Does the devil lift Jesus up?
instead of having many pages with same topics, i will post here:http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/scriptural-debates/92639-trinity-162.html (Click it)
Tom
Tom
Who is the only true God?
Let me ask.
Father, please send your holy spirit to guide me to find what your word says about this, because it is an interesting question, and I want to know the truth, thank you for revealing it to me.
Love, Harvey.
ok
let me try only true God in quickverse...
John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
now the holy spirit immediately brought to mind this text:
John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
then God brought to mind this:
John 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
and then this...
Jesus said when satan tempted him:
Mat 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
and this:
John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed:
1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
So the one true God is the father, Jesus,holyspirit God.
believe the truth, and it will be counted unto you as righteousness.
Let me ask.
Father, please send your holy spirit to guide me to find what your word says about this, because it is an interesting question, and I want to know the truth, thank you for revealing it to me.
Love, Harvey.
ok
let me try only true God in quickverse...
John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
now the holy spirit immediately brought to mind this text:
John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
then God brought to mind this:
John 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
and then this...
Jesus said when satan tempted him:
Mat 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
and this:
John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed:
1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
So the one true God is the father, Jesus,holyspirit God.
believe the truth, and it will be counted unto you as righteousness.
Shermana
Heretic
No, Satan was tempting Jesus to tempt God. He was saying to go ahead and jump off the Temple since Angels would lift him up. That would be tempting God. He wasn't warning Satan not to tempt him, he was telling Satan that he would not just expect God to save him by doing something stupid.
The Dark age commentators recognized that this was a "Statement of exclamation" "directed at God", not Jesus, and was the equivalent of OMG back in the day. And then, some like Bernard Muller say that John originally ended at 20:24, and everything after that was interpolated later.
If anything that verse is an anti-Trinity proof text, it proves that the Father simply works through Jesus.
That's called the Comma Johanneum, a total interpolation that only exists in the King James version and some of its derivatives, and does not appear in ANY Greek Manuscript (except for ones in the 16th century that were copied from the Latin). You will see that most translations are wise enough to omit it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma_Johanneum
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The three witness bearers are in one thing, Not one person. [1st John 5 vs 7,8]
John [10 v 30] 'I and the father are one' [meaning in unity] the Greek word 'hen' is neuter, showing oneness in co-operation. 'Hen' is neither male nor female but neuter gender. Neuter as we might position a car in neutral. Compare John [17 v 21] because Jesus was Not praying that all his followers be one God.
God nor Jesus are ever referred to as an 'it', but only in the masculine. God's holy spirit however is an 'it'. -Numbers 11 vs 16,17,25; JKV Romans 8 vs 16,26; Psalm 104 v 30
Even in English grammar sometimes a neuter 'it' is called a 'she' as in a boat or ship.
Who is, Not the equal, but the greater one of John 13 v 16 B ?_______
One in unity [ John 17 vs 11, 21-23]
John 17 v 3 the only true God 'AND' Jesus [ two separated persons: you AND him].
John 14 v 9: In verse 8 'show us the Father' as in 'reveal to us' because Jesus was sent by his Father [ John 12 vs 44,45 ] The sent one is Not greater then the sender [John 13 v 16 ]. Isn't it recorded in Scripture that 'No man can see God and live' ?_____
Yet people saw Jesus and lived.
What does 1st John [4 v 12 ] say, and Exodus [33 v 20] say about God ?
Before John [10 v 38] Jesus already stated in verse 36 that he was the Son of God...
Also, please notice verse 29, because doesn't it state that Jesus' Father is greater than all ? ____ Wouldn't 'all' include Jesus ?_____
Satan was not to 'test' God at Matthew [4 v 7 ] according to the Greek 'test' not tempt.
Before John [20 v 28] please notice that Jesus already stated in verse 17 that he [Jesus] was going to ascend to his Father and his God.
Jesus did ascend to his God according to Hebrews 9 v 24; Revelation 3 v 12.
The ascended to heaven Jesus still refers to himself as the Son of God at Rev. 2 v 18
So, doubting Thomas' exclamation did not mean that Thomas was addressing Jesus as the Most High God.
Harvey, have you read whole complete chapters or just isolated verses?
John Martin
Active Member
Jesus Christ is one hundred percent divine and one hundred percent human. Jesus was born in a theological system called Dualistic Monotheism in which there is only one God and human beings are creatures of God. There is a gulf between God and human beings. Jesus out grew this relationship with God and had the experience of non-dualistic monotheism, in which there is only one God and creation and human beings are not creatures of God but manifestations of God. There are like a ray of the Sun and ice from the water. A ray of the Sun is different from the Sun and at the same time one with the Sun and at the source. A piece of ice is different as a form but essentially one with the water. So also Jesus Christ is fully human as a manifestation and fully divine at the source. he opened this possibility to everyone. Everyone is one hundred percent divine and one hundred percent human. Jesus realized this Truth and invited everyone to do the same. To limit this possibility to only Jesus and deny to others is to create spiritual apartheid. Jesus said, I am the light of the world and you are the light of the world. The Upanishad sages five hundred years before him said: I am Brahman(God) and you are that(Brahman, God). While the Upanishad tradition opened this possibility to everyone Christianity limited it only to Jesus. What Jesus was we are all. The difference is he realized it and we have not yet done that.
The concept of trinity presented in the new testament is the relationship between the water and the ice. A piece of ice will say I am in the water and the water is in me. If the human soul is understood as a mirror, the reflection of God in the mirror is the presence of the Holy spirit in the Soul. It is also the presence of God in the soul. Since God cannot leave his abode he is present in the soul through his spirit.
There is only one God. Trinity means that God is not a monad with boundaries. God is a web of relationship. In every relationship there are three: the giver, the receiver and the object given and received. The relationship in creation is the unfolding of the divine life. To believe in the Trinity means to believe that life is relationship and in relationships we need to experience God. The giver is the manifestation of God, the receiver is the manifestation of God and the object given and received is the manifestation of God. It is God who gives and it is God who receives and it is God who is given and received. To believe in the Trinity is to see God everywhere and in everything. There are no three Gods. There is only one God. There is no God but God.
The concept of trinity presented in the new testament is the relationship between the water and the ice. A piece of ice will say I am in the water and the water is in me. If the human soul is understood as a mirror, the reflection of God in the mirror is the presence of the Holy spirit in the Soul. It is also the presence of God in the soul. Since God cannot leave his abode he is present in the soul through his spirit.
There is only one God. Trinity means that God is not a monad with boundaries. God is a web of relationship. In every relationship there are three: the giver, the receiver and the object given and received. The relationship in creation is the unfolding of the divine life. To believe in the Trinity means to believe that life is relationship and in relationships we need to experience God. The giver is the manifestation of God, the receiver is the manifestation of God and the object given and received is the manifestation of God. It is God who gives and it is God who receives and it is God who is given and received. To believe in the Trinity is to see God everywhere and in everything. There are no three Gods. There is only one God. There is no God but God.