Who is the real Imam Mahdi? Is he still to come?

[Trailblazer]

"Gleaning" is a collection from the writings of Bahaullah done by Shoghí Effendí, i understand.
Please quote the page from the original book written by of Bahaullah from which these passages have been taken. Right, please?

Regards

Okay, the same quote is in The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, the Most Holy Book of the Baha'i Faith.

62. Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God, ere the expiration of a full thousand years # 37

The Dispensation of Bahá’u’lláh will last until the coming of the next Manifestation of God, Whose advent will not take place before at least “a full thousand years” will have elapsed. Bahá’u’lláh cautions against ascribing to “this verse” anything other than its “obvious meaning”, and in one of His 196 Tablets, He specifies that “each year” of this thousand year period consists of “twelve months according to the Qur’án, and of nineteen months of nineteen days each, according to the Bayán”.

The intimation of His Revelation to Bahá’u’lláh in the Síyáh-Chál of Ṭihrán, in October 1852, marks the birth of His Prophetic Mission and hence the commencement of the one thousand years or more that must elapse before the appearance of the next Manifestation of God. The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Pages 195-196

“Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God, ere the expiration of a full thousand years, such a man is assuredly a lying impostor. We pray God that He may graciously assist him to retract and repudiate such claim. Should he repent, God will, no doubt, forgive him. If, however, he persisteth in his error, God will, assuredly, send down one who will deal mercilessly with him. Terrible, indeed, is God in punishing! Whosoever interpreteth this verse otherwise than its obvious meaning is deprived of the Spirit of God and of His mercy which encompasseth all created things. Fear God, and follow not your idle fancies. Nay, rather, follow the bidding of your Lord, the Almighty, the All-Wise. Erelong shall clamorous voices be raised in most lands. Shun them, O My people, and follow not the iniquitous and evil-hearted. This is that of which We gave you forewarning when We were dwelling in ‘Iráq, then later while in the Land of Mystery, and now from this Resplendent Spot.” The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, p. 32

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I did not know all that about him, thanks for sharing that information.
Unfortunately for Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, the following passage from Baha'u'llah seems to apply to him.

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 346

This is really upsetting to me that he has misled so many people, but people are going to believe whatever they want to believe, for their own reasons.

Here Susan

Spoiler

"My major source of information is the book The Bahá'í Faith and Ahmadiyyat: A Comparative Analysis (دین بہائی اور احمدیت: ایک تقابلی جائزہ). This book is a work of apologia that was written in response to an Ahmedi magazine that published a series of articles targeting the Baha’i Faith. The relevant pages of the book from which the following historical information is extracted can be found here.

-- Sulaymán Khan Ilyas Tankabni, popularly known as Jamál Effendi, came to the Indian subcontinent on the instruction of Bahá'u'lláh. He spread the message of the Baha’i Faith from 1872-1898 in areas including the Indian subcontinent, Burma, Kashmir, Afghanistan and Turkey. Jamál Effendi had a comprehensive meeting with Mirza Ghulam Ahmed in which he gave Mirza Ghulam Ahmed the glad-tidings of the appearance of The Báb and Bahá'u'lláh. He also granted him with a trunk filled with Baha’i Writings for him to study them. Mirza Ghulam Ahmed in his book Al-Balagh (also known as Faryad-e-Dard) mentions a detailed list of his academic studies where he also mentions The Bábi literature. Before claiming to be the Mehdi and the second coming of the Christ, he had read the Bábi and Baha’i literature. (Personal opinion: It is apparent that Mirza Ghulam Ahmed took help from the Bábi and Baha’i literature in trying to justify his later claims. It also gives me hints as to why some of the reformative teachings of Ahmadiyya Movement are similar to the Baha’i Writings for example the forbiddance of physical Jihad, ignoring for a moment that Ahmedis did not follow it faithfully. It is also of mention here that some views of Mirza Ghulam Ahmed were exactly in accordance with the conventionally held Islamic beliefs and later on they came in accordance with the Baha’I Faith. For example, Mirza Ghulam Ahmed first had the belief that Jesus Christ was taken up in the skies with his bodily existence and did not die on the cross. But, later on, when he made the claim to be the symbolic second coming of the Christ, he changed his view and brought it in alignment with the Baha’i view that Christ had died on the cross and that the second coming is spiritual and not physical.)

-- In the year 1900, Hakeem Noor-ud-Din, the Chief Secretary of Mirza Ghualm Ahmed, established a connection with Mirza Abu'l-Fadl-i-Gulpaygani through letters. Mirza Abu'l-Fadl-i-Gulpaygani was in Cairo during that time. Hakeem Noor-ud-Din asked him complex religious questions to which Abu'l-Fadl responded in the form of a book (name mentioned on page 140 of the aforementioned source book).

-- In the year 1904, Mehmood Zarkani – a distinguished Baha’i scholar – welcomed Mirza Ghulam Ahmed (through a local Lahore newspaper) to arrange a public gathering whose audience should consist of thinkers and academics who are neither Baha’i nor Ahmedi. Both Mehmood Zarkani and Ghulam Ahmed would put forth their respective arguments and then the audience will decide whose arguments have more gravity. Ghulam Ahmed refused by saying that he is unable to do so because he is busy. His refusal is mentioned on the second page of his book Lecture Lahore (first published on 3rd September 1904). Mehmood Zarkani once again welcomed him for a public discussion but did not receive any response.

-- On 3rd September 1907, Syed Mustafa Rumi published an extensive article for Mirza Ghulam Ahmed in a local newspaper of Lahore in which he argued that on one hand Ghulam Ahmed admits that The Báb and Bahá'u'lláh hold precedence of time over him and then moves on to claim that he himself is the first claimant of being the Mehdi and Christ without negating and refuting the claim of The Báb and Bahá'u'lláh. Moreover, in his book Al-Badar which was published on 1st August 1907, he himself describes his criterion for the truthfulness of a claimant of revelation and wrote that in the time of Muhammad there were many others who claimed to be Messengers but all of them made their claims after Muhammad did. Likewise, no one before me can say that he has claimed to the Messiah after receiving revelation from God. (By his own standard he is not the rightful claimant). Ghulam Ahmed did not respond to the article.

Ghulam Ahmed wrote more than 80 books and did not shy away from writing against anyone or any relevant religion (or even sects) except The Bábi and Baha’i Faith. Mirza Ghulam Ahmed is popular among his followers for his numerous live debates (locally known as munazra) during his lifetime. But he did not accept any invitation of any public discussion from Baha’i scholars in his entire lifespan. This silence of Mirza Ghulam Ahmed is suspicious to say the least.

The successors of Ghulam Ahmed say that Bahá'u'lláh claimed to be God (اہلویت) and therefore was not relevant to Ghulam Ahmed. According to them Ghulam Ahmed addressed the claimants of being Mehdi and Messiah and not those who claimed to be God. This is wrong on so many levels. First, Bahá'u'lláh did not claim to be God. Second, Ghulam Ahmed did address those who made the claim of being God. For instance, an Indian priest with the name Picket claimed to be God and Ghulam Ahmed addressed the claim of this priest in the 4rd February’s issue of the Sunday Circle London newspaper, 1903. Lastly, why was the claim of The Báb not addressed? Even Ahmadiyya authors admit that the claim of The Báb was of being Mehdi. At least, The Báb’s claim should have been addressed by Ghulam Ahmed given the fact that he admittedly even benefited from the Writings of The Báb."

https://www.reddit.com/r/ahmadiyya/comments/68sb70/dear_ahmadi_brothers_how_do_you_respond_to_these/

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

What is a Covenant that has never been tested? The Covernant of Baha'u'llah was assailed from every side, above and below and everywhere in between, yet remained unbroken.

It appears for the good to shine, there must always be the not so good, it is part of the process we learn by.

What you said brought to mind the following passage...

“Meditate profoundly, that the secret of things unseen may be revealed unto you, that you may inhale the sweetness of a spiritual and imperishable fragrance, and that you may acknowledge the truth that from time immemorial even unto eternity the Almighty hath tried, and will continue to try, His servants, so that light may be distinguished from darkness, truth from falsehood, right from wrong, guidance from error, happiness from misery, and roses from thorns. Even as He hath revealed: “Do men think when they say ‘We believe’ they shall be let alone and not be put to proof?” 5 “ The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 8-9

 

[Trailblazer]

Here Susan

Spoiler

"My major source of information is the book The Bahá'í Faith and Ahmadiyyat: A Comparative Analysis (دین بہائی اور احمدیت: ایک تقابلی جائزہ). This book is a work of apologia that was written in response to an Ahmedi magazine that published a series of articles targeting the Baha’i Faith. The relevant pages of the book from which the following historical information is extracted can be found here.

-- Sulaymán Khan Ilyas Tankabni, popularly known as Jamál Effendi, came to the Indian subcontinent on the instruction of Bahá'u'lláh. He spread the message of the Baha’i Faith from 1872-1898 in areas including the Indian subcontinent, Burma, Kashmir, Afghanistan and Turkey. Jamál Effendi had a comprehensive meeting with Mirza Ghulam Ahmed in which he gave Mirza Ghulam Ahmed the glad-tidings of the appearance of The Báb and Bahá'u'lláh. He also granted him with a trunk filled with Baha’i Writings for him to study them. Mirza Ghulam Ahmed in his book Al-Balagh (also known as Faryad-e-Dard) mentions a detailed list of his academic studies where he also mentions The Bábi literature. Before claiming to be the Mehdi and the second coming of the Christ, he had read the Bábi and Baha’i literature. (Personal opinion: It is apparent that Mirza Ghulam Ahmed took help from the Bábi and Baha’i literature in trying to justify his later claims. It also gives me hints as to why some of the reformative teachings of Ahmadiyya Movement are similar to the Baha’i Writings for example the forbiddance of physical Jihad, ignoring for a moment that Ahmedis did not follow it faithfully. It is also of mention here that some views of Mirza Ghulam Ahmed were exactly in accordance with the conventionally held Islamic beliefs and later on they came in accordance with the Baha’I Faith. For example, Mirza Ghulam Ahmed first had the belief that Jesus Christ was taken up in the skies with his bodily existence and did not die on the cross. But, later on, when he made the claim to be the symbolic second coming of the Christ, he changed his view and brought it in alignment with the Baha’i view that Christ had died on the cross and that the second coming is spiritual and not physical.)

-- In the year 1900, Hakeem Noor-ud-Din, the Chief Secretary of Mirza Ghualm Ahmed, established a connection with Mirza Abu'l-Fadl-i-Gulpaygani through letters. Mirza Abu'l-Fadl-i-Gulpaygani was in Cairo during that time. Hakeem Noor-ud-Din asked him complex religious questions to which Abu'l-Fadl responded in the form of a book (name mentioned on page 140 of the aforementioned source book).

-- In the year 1904, Mehmood Zarkani – a distinguished Baha’i scholar – welcomed Mirza Ghulam Ahmed (through a local Lahore newspaper) to arrange a public gathering whose audience should consist of thinkers and academics who are neither Baha’i nor Ahmedi. Both Mehmood Zarkani and Ghulam Ahmed would put forth their respective arguments and then the audience will decide whose arguments have more gravity. Ghulam Ahmed refused by saying that he is unable to do so because he is busy. His refusal is mentioned on the second page of his book Lecture Lahore (first published on 3rd September 1904). Mehmood Zarkani once again welcomed him for a public discussion but did not receive any response.

-- On 3rd September 1907, Syed Mustafa Rumi published an extensive article for Mirza Ghulam Ahmed in a local newspaper of Lahore in which he argued that on one hand Ghulam Ahmed admits that The Báb and Bahá'u'lláh hold precedence of time over him and then moves on to claim that he himself is the first claimant of being the Mehdi and Christ without negating and refuting the claim of The Báb and Bahá'u'lláh. Moreover, in his book Al-Badar which was published on 1st August 1907, he himself describes his criterion for the truthfulness of a claimant of revelation and wrote that in the time of Muhammad there were many others who claimed to be Messengers but all of them made their claims after Muhammad did. Likewise, no one before me can say that he has claimed to the Messiah after receiving revelation from God. (By his own standard he is not the rightful claimant). Ghulam Ahmed did not respond to the article.

Ghulam Ahmed wrote more than 80 books and did not shy away from writing against anyone or any relevant religion (or even sects) except The Bábi and Baha’i Faith. Mirza Ghulam Ahmed is popular among his followers for his numerous live debates (locally known as munazra) during his lifetime. But he did not accept any invitation of any public discussion from Baha’i scholars in his entire lifespan. This silence of Mirza Ghulam Ahmed is suspicious to say the least.

The successors of Ghulam Ahmed say that Bahá'u'lláh claimed to be God (اہلویت) and therefore was not relevant to Ghulam Ahmed. According to them Ghulam Ahmed addressed the claimants of being Mehdi and Messiah and not those who claimed to be God. This is wrong on so many levels. First, Bahá'u'lláh did not claim to be God. Second, Ghulam Ahmed did address those who made the claim of being God. For instance, an Indian priest with the name Picket claimed to be God and Ghulam Ahmed addressed the claim of this priest in the 4rd February’s issue of the Sunday Circle London newspaper, 1903. Lastly, why was the claim of The Báb not addressed? Even Ahmadiyya authors admit that the claim of The Báb was of being Mehdi. At least, The Báb’s claim should have been addressed by Ghulam Ahmed given the fact that he admittedly even benefited from the Writings of The Báb."

https://www.reddit.com/r/ahmadiyya/comments/68sb70/dear_ahmadi_brothers_how_do_you_respond_to_these/

Regards Tony

Thanks, it sure sounds like the passage Baha'u'llah wrote applies to this man.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

All the true religions wait for the Promised Messiah but they have all rejected Him because He is not what they want. It is all about what they want, what they believe will happen, according to their false expectations of what the Messiah will be like, and so they have rejected the Baha'u'llah because He was not what they wanted.

What are some examples of "their false expectations"?
And how do you know they are false?

 

[Trailblazer]

What are some examples of "their false expectations"?

Some examples are the Christian belief that the resurrected body of Jesus who resides in heaven is going to literally come down from heaven in the clouds that are in the sky accompanied by trumpets and angels and everyone in the world will see Jesus when He appears. That belief is according to the literal interpretation of the Son of man in the clouds verses.

Matthew 24:30-31 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Some examples of the false expectations of Jews is that they believe that then Messiah is coming to redeem them and restore them to what they believe is their rightful position as the one true religion. They also believe that the Messiah will be a king who will single-handedly make all the prophecies come true within his lifetime, so for example they believe that if the Messiah had really come there would be no more war because war would have ended within the lifetime of the Messiah.

And how do you know they are false?

I believe they are false because I believe that Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ and the Messiah, and that is not how He came nor what He came to do. He came to usher in an era of world peace, but nowhere in the Old Testament or the Tanakh does it say that world peace would be established within the lifetime of the Messiah, so that is a false expectation based upon assumptions that were made, not what is written.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

What are some examples of "their false expectations"?
And how do you know they are false?

Many are awaiting an earthly King to sit on a Throne.

The Mesengers kingdom is not of this world and they say rend uto Ceasar what is Ceasars. They come for the hearts of men, to show us what it is to Love each other, a never ending spiritual authority from a spiritual throne.

Regards Tony

 

[WonderingWorrier]

They also believe that the Messiah will be a king who will single-handedly make all the prophecies come true within his lifetime, so for example they believe that if the Messiah had really come there would be no more war because war would have ended within the lifetime of the Messiah.

The signs, miracles, prophecies happen as the words move into their positions. Anyone can experience them by following the words. They all become fulfilled as understanding is reached.

The good words and the evil words all join together into one message.

The message is the law.


And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. Isaiah 2:4

Beat your plowshares into swords and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong. Joel 3:10

If the word plowshare means exactly the same thing as the word sword then then both of these verses do not contradict each other. The good and the evil are one and the same.

 

[Trailblazer]

The signs, miracles, prophecies happen as the words move into their positions. Anyone can experience them by following the words. They all become fulfilled as understanding is reached.

I believe that what has not yet been fulfilled will be fulfilled during the Messianic Age.
I do not believe that understanding has been reached by Jews and Christians who still await their Messiah.

The good words and the evil words all join together into one message.

The message is the law.

And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. Isaiah 2:4

I believe that the message referred to in that verse is about the law, the Most Great Law that came down from heaven when God sent Baha'u'llah.

“THE Most Great Law is come, and the Ancient Beauty ruleth upon the throne of David. Thus hath My Pen spoken that which the histories of bygone ages have related. At this time, however, David crieth aloud and saith: ‘O my loving Lord! Do Thou number me with such as have stood steadfast in Thy Cause, O Thou through Whom the faces have been illumined, and the footsteps have slipped!’” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 89-90

“LEND an ear unto the song of David. He saith: ‘Who will bring me into the Strong City?’ The Strong City is ‘Akká, which hath been named the Most Great Prison, and which possesseth a fortress and mighty ramparts… Peruse that which Isaiah hath spoken in His Book. He saith: ‘Get thee up into the high mountain, O Zion, that bringest good tidings; lift up thy voice with strength, O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings. Lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah: “Behold your God! Behold the Lord God will come with strong hand, and His arm shall rule for Him.”’ This Day all the signs have appeared. A great City hath descended from heaven, and Zion trembleth and exulteth with joy at the Revelation of God, for it hath heard the Voice of God on every side.”
Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 90-91

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Beat your plowshares into swords and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong. Joel 3:10

That is very interesting and I do wonder if this is not reference to Islam. There is much in Joel 3 that seems to expand a greater timeline.

Regards Tony

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Okay, that is from Daniel 12, but in Daniel 8 it says,

“How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled—the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, the surrender of the sanctuary and the trampling underfoot of the Lord’s people?”
14 He said to me, “It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated.”​

What is the daily sacrifice and the rebellion that causes desolation alluding to? Because in this prophecy Baha'is start it with the decree to rebuild Jerusalem in 456BC, then they add the 2300 years to it to get to 1844.

So why change the daily sacrifice in Daniel 12 to something different then what you did in Daniel 8?

Okay, what were the "gospel laws" that got replaced and what were the Christian "Rites" that got abolished? Then, you make the daily sacrifice an "allusion" to the revelation of Jesus, but what about the abomination makes desolation being set up?

Then we have the 1335 days... To this Baha'is say...

Now concerning the verse in Daniel, the interpretation whereof thou didst ask, namely, "Blessed is he who cometh unto the thousand three hundred and thirty five days". These days must be reckoned as solar and not lunar years. For according to this calculation a century will have elapsed from the dawn of the Sun of Truth, then will the teachings of God be firmly established upon the earth, and the Divine Light shall flood the world from the East even unto the West. Then, on this day, will the faithful rejoice! (p. 31)

O servant of God! The afore mentioned a thousand three hundred and thirty-five years must be reckoned from the day of the flight of His Holiness Muhammad, the Apostle of God, (Hegira) salutations and blessings rest upon Him, at the close of which time the signs of the rise, the glory, the exaltation, the spread of the Word of God throughout the East and the West shall appear. (p. 31)
​

Why start this one at yet another starting point, the Hegira. And, are now in solar years? Later in that same article it says...

The 1335 days referred to by Daniel will be fulfilled in 1963. The date of the Hijra is 622 A.D. The 1335 days is figured according to the solar calendar, but in adjusting the 1335 days, one must take into consideration the time at which the prophecies were given and change them into solar time, which would bring the date to 1963.
​

So to make sure you know what I'm asking, the daily sacrifice and abomination are mentioned as the starting point to all these prophecies, the 2300 days, the 1290 days and the 1335 days. So why start all three at different times? If the "daily sacrifice" is an allusion to Jesus in one, why not the other two? Thanks IT

OK, I will try reply to some of them, and whatever left, feel free to mention in the next post.


" the abomination that maketh desolation be set up"

This is an allusion to Baha'u'llah's proclamation.

"abomination" means something that causes hatred. This is because, The Appearance of a person, who comes to abolish previous religious law, and replace it with a new law, causes hatred. When Baha'u'llah appeared, the religious leaders showed a lot of hatred.
So, 1290 days, in Bahai interpretation is 1290 years, and if we count from the proclamation of Muhammad (when daily sacrificed was abolished) to the time of proclamation of Baha'u'llah, there are 1290 years.

 

[paarsurrey]

Thanks, it sure sounds like the passage Baha'u'llah wrote applies to this man.

“Verily, there is no God but Me, the Most Excellent, the All-Praised.”"
- Bahaullah

"Who is the Master of the Day of Judgement? For a Baha'i that is Baha'u'llah."

 

[TransmutingSoul]

“Verily, there is no God but Me, the Most Excellent, the All-Praised.”"
- Bahaullah

"Who is the Master of the Day of Judgement? For a Baha'i that is Baha'u'llah."

What was that post aimed at paarsurrey?

You are well aware that Baha'u'llah does not claim to be God.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

“Verily, there is no God but Me, the Most Excellent, the All-Praised.”"
- Bahaullah

"Who is the Master of the Day of Judgement? For a Baha'i that is Baha'u'llah."

From what source did you get that quote cited above?

Even if Baha'u'llah wrote that, He was not speaking in the first person, He was speaking as the Voice of God, so it was God who said
“Verily, there is no God but Me, the Most Excellent, the All-Praised.”

 

[CG Didymus]

OK, I will try reply to some of them, and whatever left, feel free to mention in the next post.


" the abomination that maketh desolation be set up"

This is an allusion to Baha'u'llah's proclamation.

"abomination" means something that causes hatred. This is because, The Appearance of a person, who comes to abolish previous religious law, and replace it with a new law, causes hatred. When Baha'u'llah appeared, the religious leaders showed a lot of hatred.
So, 1290 days, in Bahai interpretation is 1290 years, and if we count from the proclamation of Muhammad (when daily sacrificed was abolished) to the time of proclamation of Baha'u'llah, there are 1290 years.

So this is your interpretation of the daily sacrifice...

Daily Sacrifice is an allusion to Jesus and His Revelation, and Rites that was established through the Revelation of Jesus.
As Jesus was sacrificed, metaphorically, this was the daily Sacrifice.

And the meaning of the abomination that causes desolation is that the new messenger causes people to hate him because he brings a new message? Even though, there was Antiochus Epiphanes and no doubt others that did, literally, put a stop to the daily sacrifice and did set up an abomination in the Temple? So still we have three different starting times for each prophecy... 456BC for one of them, The year Muhammad proclaimed himself for another and the year of the Hegira for the other one. Why too arbitrary for me. Can you explain that for me? Thanks IT. And here's an interesting quote posted by TB.

“Do men think when they say ‘We believe’ they shall be let alone and not be put to proof?”

I like that.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

So this is your interpretation of the daily sacrifice...
And the meaning of the abomination that causes desolation is that the new messenger causes people to hate him because he brings a new message? Even though, there was Antiochus Epiphanes and no doubt others that did, literally, put a stop to the daily sacrifice and did set up an abomination in the Temple? So still we have three different starting times for each prophecy... 456BC for one of them, The year Muhammad proclaimed himself for another and the year of the Hegira for the other one. Why too arbitrary for me. Can you explain that for me? Thanks IT. And here's an interesting quote posted by TB.
I like that.

"the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, the surrender of the sanctuary and the trampling underfoot of the Lord’s people?”


So, it included Daily Sacrifice(allusion to Jesus), and eventually trampling underfoot, which is an allusion to the gentiles (Muslim Arabs). All of this 2300 years.

The other prophecy is counted from when Daily Sacrifice is abolished (allusion to abrogation of Christianity by Manifestation of Muhammad). This will take 1260 years. As for 1290 or 1335, the verse does not say they also have to be counted from when the daily sacrificed is abrogated. But it says when 1290 or 1335 years pass... so, in Bahai view, only a Prophet can tell what it means, or from when it is to be counted.

 

[paarsurrey]

From what source did you get that quote cited above?

Even if Baha'u'llah wrote that, He was not speaking in the first person, He was speaking as the Voice of God, so it was God who said
“Verily, there is no God but Me, the Most Excellent, the All-Praised.”

"he who speaks in the most great prison is the Creator of all things and the one who brought all names into being"

Its trail is in the Google, please.
Right, please?

Regards

 

[TransmutingSoul]

"he who speaks in the most great prison is the Creator of all things and the one who brought all names into being"

Its trail is in the Google, please.
Right, please?

Regards

Paarsurrey, again you have quoted a translation not found in the Baha'i Writings, wheras it is you that keeps asking for quotes only from the Kitab-i-Iqan.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

"he who speaks in the most great prison is the Creator of all things and the one who brought all names into being"

Its trail is in the Google, please.
Right, please?

Regards

Where in Google? I found this following. The truth is in red.

Divinity

Baháʼu'lláh wrote in many styles including cases where he speaks as if he was instructed by God to bring a message; in other cases he writes in the first-person as God speaking, garnering some criticism that he was claiming to be God incarnated.[64][65][66] Denis MacEoin states "...it is difficult to avoid the suspicion that he [Baha'u'llah] himself made much more radical claims than this in parts of his later writings. The following statements are, I think, explicit enough to serve as examples: 'he who speaks in the most great prison (i.e. Acre) is the Creator of all things and the one who brought all names into being'."[67] However, the understanding among Baháʼís is that writing in the voice of God is a literary style and represents a message coming through Baháʼu'lláh.[59]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baha'u'llah

 

[CG Didymus]

OK, I will try reply to some of them, and whatever left, feel free to mention in the next post.


" the abomination that maketh desolation be set up"

This is an allusion to Baha'u'llah's proclamation.

"abomination" means something that causes hatred. This is because, The Appearance of a person, who comes to abolish previous religious law, and replace it with a new law, causes hatred. When Baha'u'llah appeared, the religious leaders showed a lot of hatred.
So, 1290 days, in Bahai interpretation is 1290 years, and if we count from the proclamation of Muhammad (when daily sacrificed was abolished) to the time of proclamation of Baha'u'llah, there are 1290 years.

And do other Baha'is believe this? So Daniel prophesied that some day the daily sacrifice would be stopped and the abomination set up. That is not the same day? But with your interpretation Jesus's message is the "Daily Sacrifice"? And it was stopped, a negative thing, by the announcement of Muhammad that he was a prophet of God. Then, hundreds of years later, the abomination of desolation is set up, which means a new message from a new messenger, Baha'u'llah, is given, and it causes "hatred"? I can see why other Baha'is avoided my question as to why Baha'is start the 1290 day prophecy with the proclamation of Muhammad. The 1335 day prophecy isn't much better, but if that's what Baha'is believe then fine... but, like I said, do other Baha'is believe this?

You know I have a problem with the other "prophecies" about the 1260 days. Sure, it is amazing and it's great that 1260 in the Islamic calendar is 1844. But... every single event that is mentioned as lasting 3 1/2 days, or 42 months or whatever else can be made to be 1260day/years all begin at different times. Like the beast Baha'is say is the Umayyad dynasty. It didn't begin in 621AD and it didn't end in 1844. Yet, Baha'is make it so. Sorry, but I find that to be way too manipulated to be a legitimate fulfillment of that prophecy. But, it doesn't seem to bother any of the Baha'is, so I guess it's close enough.

Now, it seems like the same type of manipulation is necessary to make the Mahdi both The Bab and Baha'u'llah or one the Mahdi and the other the Christ or whatever it is Baha'is have done. And what exactly is the final decision on who was who?