Who is the real Imam Mahdi? Is he still to come?

[paarsurrey]

And do other Baha'is believe this? So Daniel prophesied that some day the daily sacrifice would be stopped and the abomination set up. That is not the same day? But with your interpretation Jesus's message is the "Daily Sacrifice"? And it was stopped, a negative thing, by the announcement of Muhammad that he was a prophet of God. Then, hundreds of years later, the abomination of desolation is set up, which means a new message from a new messenger, Baha'u'llah, is given, and it causes "hatred"? I can see why other Baha'is avoided my question as to why Baha'is start the 1290 day prophecy with the proclamation of Muhammad. The 1335 day prophecy isn't much better, but if that's what Baha'is believe then fine... but, like I said, do other Baha'is believe this?

You know I have a problem with the other "prophecies" about the 1260 days. Sure, it is amazing and it's great that 1260 in the Islamic calendar is 1844. But... every single event that is mentioned as lasting 3 1/2 days, or 42 months or whatever else can be made to be 1260day/years all begin at different times. Like the beast Baha'is say is the Umayyad dynasty. It didn't begin in 621AD and it didn't end in 1844. Yet, Baha'is make it so. Sorry, but I find that to be way too manipulated to be a legitimate fulfillment of that prophecy. But, it doesn't seem to bother any of the Baha'is, so I guess it's close enough.

Now, it seems like the same type of manipulation is necessary to make the Mahdi both The Bab and Baha'u'llah or one the Mahdi and the other the Christ or whatever it is Baha'is have done. And what exactly is the final decision on who was who?

I for one get that Bahaullah was not even a Bahai. I have read Kitab-i-Iqan, and I don't find in it any claim of him being a Bahai.
Notwithstanding the Bahaism people, they don't bother me, at least they keep the attention of the people, as an alternative, to the issue of Second Coming and the Imam Mahdi. Right, please?

Regards

 

[CG Didymus]

I for one get that Bahaullah was not even a Bahai. I have read Kitab-i-Iqan, and I don't find in it any claim of him being a Bahai.
Notwithstanding the Bahaism people, they don't bother me, at least they keep the attention of the people, as an alternative, to the issue of Second Coming and the Imam Mahdi. Right, please?

Regards

I don't know all the different prophecies, so I'm learning a lot from threads like this. But it gets confusing with one of their prophets being the Mahdi and the 12th Imam then their main prophet being the Mahdi and the Christ or something like that. I don't remember exactly, or if it ever was an exact answer or just a guess. But I do know that when I questioned them about the prophecies about the "Lamb" in Revelation, it was hard to get a straight answer.

 

[Trailblazer]

I for one get that Bahaullah was not even a Bahai. I have read Kitab-i-Iqan, and I don't find in it any claim of him being a Bahai.
Notwithstanding the Bahaism people, they don't bother me, at least they keep the attention of the people, as an alternative, to the issue of Second Coming and the Imam Mahdi. Right, please?

Regards

Baha'u'llah was no more a Baha'i than Jesus was a Christian. Jesus was a Jew and Baha'u'llah was a Muslim.
Christians are followers of Jesus and the Baha'is are followers of Baha'u'llah.

 

[paarsurrey]

I don't know all the different prophecies, so I'm learning a lot from threads like this. But it gets confusing with one of their prophets being the Mahdi and the 12th Imam then their main prophet being the Mahdi and the Christ or something like that. I don't remember exactly, or if it ever was an exact answer or just a guess. But I do know that when I questioned them about the prophecies about the "Lamb" in Revelation, it was hard to get a straight answer.

Magenta^.
I get that they perhaps have been "commanded" never to be straightforwad. Right, please?

Regards

 

[InvestigateTruth]

. Like the beast Baha'is say is the Umayyad dynasty. It didn't begin in 621AD and it didn't end in 1844. Yet, Baha'is make it so.

Which verse is this about? I remember somewhere in Revelation?

Now, it seems like the same type of manipulation is necessary to make the Mahdi both The Bab and Baha'u'llah or one the Mahdi and the other the Christ or whatever it is Baha'is have done. And what exactly is the final decision on who was who?

Mahdi is from Hadithes. There is a Hadith, which says," No Mahdi except Christ". So, both the Bab and Bahaullah could be called Mahdi and Christ. They match with what is said in the Hadithes.

 

[paarsurrey]

Which verse is this about? I remember somewhere in Revelation?



Mahdi is from Hadithes. There is a Hadith, which says," No Mahdi except Christ". So, both the Bab and Bahaullah could be called Mahdi and Christ. They match with what is said in the Hadithes.

The Hadith is "No Mahdi except Jesus"
It means if a claimant:

1. who has not expressly claimed to be the (promised) Imam Mahdi and
   
2. not expressly claimed to be (the promised) Jesus,
3. is neither of them.

This entails that the claims of Bab as well as of Bahaullah were incorrect. Right, please?

Regards

 

[WhoIsBeast 750]

Which verse is this about? I remember somewhere in Revelation?



Mahdi is from Hadithes. There is a Hadith, which says," No Mahdi except Christ". So, both the Bab and Bahaullah could be called Mahdi and Christ. They match with what is said in the Hadithes.

bahai wasn't he making a false statement?
if he ruled the world and had government? didn't he? so if the prophecy is not completed, they are all false and let your leader write thousands of books

did God say false prophets and false Christs?

wasn't it more that Jesus himself warned them and many will come in a name I will say and say that I and many will cheat here?

this verse warns exactly against a prophet like the bahai

ad wrote anything no evidence no support in the script has

and if there is written where is his exact name?

the beast's name is there, like who knows what and the name of the prophet will not be there?

do not be naive and especially conceited he wrote the names of the prophet though encrypted

it does not mean that whoever comes and claims something is him because he is a false prophet and because of such a world suffers

 

[Trailblazer]

wasn't it more that Jesus himself warned them and many will come in a name I will say and say that I and many will cheat here?

this verse warns exactly against a prophet like the bahai

Jesus gave that warning because He knew that many would come in His name, claiming to be Christ, as thye surely have, but Baha'u'llah never claimed to be Christ, He came with a New Name...

Also, just because there have been false prophets that does not mean there would not be any true prophets, and that is basic logic. If there were never going to be any true prophets, why would Jesus have said the following?

Matthew 7:15-20 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

 

[CG Didymus]

I have a problem with the other "prophecies" about the 1260 days. Sure, it is amazing and it's great that 1260 in the Islamic calendar is 1844. But... every single event that is mentioned as lasting 3 1/2 days, or 42 months or whatever else can be made to be 1260day/years all begin at different times. Like the beast Baha'is say is the Umayyad dynasty. It didn't begin in 621AD and it didn't end in 1844. Yet, Baha'is make it so.

My question.

Which verse is this about? I remember somewhere in Revelation?

From SAQ...

In the beginning of the eleventh chapter of the Revelation of St. John it is said... “The beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them”: 9 this beast means the Umayyads who attacked them from the pit of error, and who rose against the religion of Muḥammad and against the reality of ‘Alí—in other words, the love of God.
10 —that is to say, a spiritual war, meaning that the beast would act in entire opposition to the teachings, customs and institutions of these two witnesses, to such an extent that the virtues and perfections which were diffused by the power of those two witnesses among the peoples and tribes would be entirely dispelled, and the animal nature and carnal desires would conquer. Therefore, this beast making war against them would gain the victory—meaning that the darkness of error coming from this beast was to have ascendency over the horizons of the world, and kill those two witnesses—in other words, that it would destroy the spiritual life which they spread abroad in the midst of the nation, and entirely remove the divine laws and teachings, treading under foot the Religion of God. Nothing would thereafter remain but a lifeless body without spirit.
11 “Their bodies” means the Religion of God, and “the street” means in public view. The meaning of “Sodom and Egypt,” the place “where also our Lord was crucified,” is this region of Syria, and especially Jerusalem, where the Umayyads then had their dominions; and it was here that the Religion of God and the divine teachings first disappeared, and a body without spirit remained. “Their bodies” represents the Religion of God, which remained like a dead body without spirit.​

Mahdi is from Hadithes. There is a Hadith, which says," No Mahdi except Christ". So, both the Bab and Bahaullah could be called Mahdi and Christ. They match with what is said in the Hadithes.

Okay, are Hadiths considered to be the inerrant "Word of God"? Then, can you go over the prophecies of the Mahdi, of Jesus coming back and the 12th Imam again. And how you believe these were fulfilled by The Bab and Baha'u'llah? Thanks.

 

[paarsurrey]

My question.

From SAQ...

In the beginning of the eleventh chapter of the Revelation of St. John it is said... “The beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them”: 9 this beast means the Umayyads who attacked them from the pit of error, and who rose against the religion of Muḥammad and against the reality of ‘Alí—in other words, the love of God.
10 —that is to say, a spiritual war, meaning that the beast would act in entire opposition to the teachings, customs and institutions of these two witnesses, to such an extent that the virtues and perfections which were diffused by the power of those two witnesses among the peoples and tribes would be entirely dispelled, and the animal nature and carnal desires would conquer. Therefore, this beast making war against them would gain the victory—meaning that the darkness of error coming from this beast was to have ascendency over the horizons of the world, and kill those two witnesses—in other words, that it would destroy the spiritual life which they spread abroad in the midst of the nation, and entirely remove the divine laws and teachings, treading under foot the Religion of God. Nothing would thereafter remain but a lifeless body without spirit.
11 “Their bodies” means the Religion of God, and “the street” means in public view. The meaning of “Sodom and Egypt,” the place “where also our Lord was crucified,” is this region of Syria, and especially Jerusalem, where the Umayyads then had their dominions; and it was here that the Religion of God and the divine teachings first disappeared, and a body without spirit remained. “Their bodies” represents the Religion of God, which remained like a dead body without spirit.​

Okay, are Hadiths considered to be the inerrant "Word of God"? Then, can you go over the prophecies of the Mahdi, of Jesus coming back and the 12th Imam again. And how you believe these were fulfilled by The Bab and Baha'u'llah? Thanks.

CG Didymus " can you go over the prophecies of the Mahdi, of Jesus coming back and the 12th Imam again. And how you believe these were fulfilled by The Bab and Baha'u'llah?"

I get for one that Bab and Bahaullah did not claim to be both the Imam Mahdi and Jesus/Isa in Second Coming in straightforward terms so they are not worthy of both these offices. Please refer in this connection to my post #286 above. Right friend, please?
Further they never mentioned, I understand, the Hadiths that mention of Masih-ud-Dajjal . They also never mentioned, I figure, the Hadiths that tell as to how Jesus/Isa is to break the Cross , kill the swine and postpone the war. please. Right friend, please?
I also see that complete references of Hadith in Kitab-e-Iqan has not been provided, neither in the original Farsi/Arabic nor in its translation.
Right friend, please?

Regards

 

[CG Didymus]

Jesus gave that warning because He knew that many would come in His name, claiming to be Christ, as thye surely have, but Baha'u'llah never claimed to be Christ, He came with a New Name...

Also, just because there have been false prophets that does not mean there would not be any true prophets, and that is basic logic. If there were never going to be any true prophets, why would Jesus have said the following?

Matthew 7:15-20 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

You are always bringing out little technicalities, like when Christians say that Jesus will return and then you point out that Jesus never said he was going to return". It was usually worded that when the "Son of Man" returns or something similar. But, this time, you are the one adding Jesus and Christ into the mix when the verse you use doesn't say Jesus or Christ, it says "false" prophets in sheep's clothing.

Although, earlier in Matthew it says...

3 “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains...

21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
​

So who do Baha'is see as being these false messiahs and false prophets? And you know that I always point out that to not be deceived one thing a person needs to look out for is that there will be wars and rumors of wars etc.... but that is not yet the end? That if those days weren't cut short no one would survive? I don't see how Baha'is can say those things have already happened. But, it sure seems like we are heading towards those kinds of catastrophic events. So has the true Messiah already come? Baha'is say "yes, he has." And that he predicted that his message would be rejected and that the world would then go through all kinds a tribulations. And things would get so bad that the only way out of it would be to turn to the Baha'i Faith.

So what kinds of disasters have the Baha'i leaders predicted? The World Wars? I think they did. Nuclear bombs? I think they predicted that too. Weren't Baha'is warned to get out of the cities? That America would "burn" because of their racial problems? Were the Baha'is warned to get out of Iran? What do Baha'is say to do about climate change and other problems we are facing right now?

Next problem. It gets so bad that we turn to the Baha'is. Then what? Do we say, "Okay LSA of San Francisco, what do we do? Can you fix this mess? Do you want to take over the governing of the city?" What about the county and state governments? What do Baha'i teachings want them to do? Then the NSA of the United States. The U.S. government says, "Here, we give up. You take over and fix this.? Then the UHJ, "Okay, you're in control. Tell all the nations to work together and stop fighting."

What's the Baha'i plan? If the world turns to the Baha'is, are they ready to take over and put "God's" laws and "God's" government into action? Or, as things are crumbling do Baha'is just sit by? Because, things are crumbling and too many Baha'is seem to be just sitting by. What are they supposed to be doing to get ready for when the %&#* hits the fan? But still, that's just the birth pangs and are not yet the end? Baha'u'llah, the end-time Messiah, has come and gone and we are still going through the birth pangs?

 

[CG Didymus]

CG Didymus " can you go over the prophecies of the Mahdi, of Jesus coming back and the 12th Imam again. And how you believe these were fulfilled by The Bab and Baha'u'llah?"

I get for one that Bab and Bahaullah did not claim to be both the Imam Mahdi and Jesus/Isa in Second Coming in straightforward terms so they are not worthy of both these offices. Please refer in this connection to my post #286 above. Right friend, please?
Further they never mentioned, I understand, the Hadiths that mention of Masih-ud-Dajjal . They also never mentioned, I figure, the Hadiths that tell as to how Jesus/Isa is to break the Cross , kill the swine and postpone the war. please. Right friend, please?
I also see that complete references of Hadith in Kitab-e-Iqan has not been provided, neither in the original Farsi/Arabic nor in its translation.
Right friend, please?

Regards

I don't know the details of Islamic beliefs, so I wouldn't know if I'm being told things that aren't true or misinterpreted or taken out of context. But, I do enough about the Christian and Baha'i use of Bible verses. And they are creatively interpreted and taken out of context. So I wouldn't expect things to be any different. Just like Christians are satisfied with their "interpretations" of out of context Bible verses, Baha'is are happy with theirs. So even if I did know Islam inside and out, it wouldn't matter to a Baha'i. They believe their interpretations are correct... no matter what other might say.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

What's the Baha'i plan? If the world turns to the Baha'is, are they ready to take over and put "God's" laws and "God's" government into action? Or, as things are crumbling do Baha'is just sit by? Because, things are crumbling and too many Baha'is seem to be just sitting by. What are they supposed to be doing to get ready for when the %&#* hits the fan? But still, that's just the birth pangs and are not yet the end? Baha'u'llah, the end-time Messiah, has come and gone and we are still going through the birth pangs?

Good morning CG, I hope you are well.

Firstly Justice dictates that humanity was warned before a global disunity brought man to the brink of extinction.

Imagine if the Rulers of the world and all the Faiths had accepted the Oneness and unity offered in the 1800s. The world would be a different place.

To take the step to become a world citizen starts at the grass roots. One has to change their heart, eliminate many predudices and be taught how to work within a unity of our diversity, before they can expect any other person should.

Also the Baha'i administration system is not a world government and will not be in this dispensation. Baha'u'llah has made that very clear. The rule of earth has been given over to men to allow them to rule in Justice, to reflect our spiritual virtues.

Yes there are many tests and momentous events to come, as the old world order will pass away and the cities, which have become abodes of materialism will also fall, the human race will suffer great losses.

I can tell you the Baha'i do not sit and wait. Many have put their lives into trying to implement the required change, but there is a time when we all grow old and know that the younger people must take up the challenge.

What will you do about the world situation CG, how is your life lived?

This passage has been given.

"When the victory arriveth, every man shall profess himself as believer and shall hasten to the shelter of God’s Faith. Happy are they who in the days of world-encompassing trials have stood fast in the Cause and refused to swerve from its truth"

That tells me times will get very challenging.

Regards Tony

 

[WhoIsBeast 750]

Jesus gave that warning because He knew that many would come in His name, claiming to be Christ, as thye surely have, but Baha'u'llah never claimed to be Christ, He came with a New Name...

Also, just because there have been false prophets that does not mean there would not be any true prophets, and that is basic logic. If there were never going to be any true prophets, why would Jesus have said the following?

Matthew 7:15-20 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

so the new name and will claim to be him? isn't it the same? and iman mahdi many of you claim it and at the same time to support with the fonts except yours there is nothing jesus alspon is also described how he dies on the cross even though you probably don't know the scrolls are coded
and when you say he opened the scroll, you will only be liars
the date is even written there about not exactly the exact day year yes day but no
so much misunderstood people able to do their teachings due to their flattering ears will do anything even if it is not true

 

[TransmutingSoul]

so the new name and will claim to be him? isn't it the same? and iman mahdi many of you claim it and at the same time to support with the fonts except yours there is nothing jesus alspon is also described how he dies on the cross even though you probably don't know the scrolls are coded
and when you say he opened the scroll, you will only be liars
the date is even written there about not exactly the exact day year yes day but no
so much misunderstood people able to do their teachings due to their flattering ears will do anything even if it is not true

I see you are placing your interpretation at the same level of Christ and as such, make the same claim.

Thus I personally have a choice between all of the people that say they are giving the correct meaning of God's given scriptures.

Luckily Jesus also told us how to tell a True Prophet, so many that give their opinion on scripture, thinking they have any authority to do so, will fall way short of those requirements.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Good morning CG, I hope you are well.

Firstly Justice dictates that humanity was warned before a global disunity brought man to the brink of extinction.

Imagine if the Rulers of the world and all the Faiths had accepted the Oneness and unity offered in the 1800s. The world would be a different place.

To take the step to become a world citizen starts at the grass roots. One has to change their heart, eliminate many predudices and be taught how to work within a unity of our diversity, before they can expect any other person should.

Also the Baha'i administration system is not a world government and will not be in this dispensation. Baha'u'llah has made that very clear. The rule of earth has been given over to men to allow them to rule in Justice, to reflect our spiritual virtues.

Yes there are many tests and momentous events to come, as the old world order will pass away and the cities, which have become abodes of materialism will also fall, the human race will suffer great losses.

I can tell you the Baha'i do not sit and wait. Many have put their lives into trying to implement the required change, but there is a time when we all grow old and know that the younger people must take up the challenge.

What will you do about the world situation CG, how is your life lived?

This passage has been given.

"When the victory arriveth, every man shall profess himself as believer and shall hasten to the shelter of God’s Faith. Happy are they who in the days of world-encompassing trials have stood fast in the Cause and refused to swerve from its truth"

That tells me times will get very challenging.

Regards Tony

So then peace and the "government" will be on his shoulders aren't really going to be fulfilled? What is it that Baha'is expect the "Lessor Peace" to be?

 

[paarsurrey]

I don't know the details of Islamic beliefs, so I wouldn't know if I'm being told things that aren't true or misinterpreted or taken out of context. But, I do enough about the Christian and Baha'i use of Bible verses. And they are creatively interpreted and taken out of context. So I wouldn't expect things to be any different. Just like Christians are satisfied with their "interpretations" of out of context Bible verses, Baha'is are happy with theirs. So even if I did know Islam inside and out, it wouldn't matter to a Baha'i. They believe their interpretations are correct... no matter what other might say.

The Bahaism people have a birth right to be wrong and to believe in any weird things they like just out of their blindfaith with reason or without any reason, I don't deny them. Right, please?
They don't bother me, at least they keep the attention of the people, as an alternative, to the issue of Second Coming and the Imam Mahdi. Right, please?

Regards

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So then peace and the "government" will be on his shoulders aren't really going to be fulfilled? What is it that Baha'is expect the "Lessor Peace" to be?

That Prophecy is well and truly fulfilled CG.

The lesser peace will be when the Nations come together and lay down the clear foundations for peace. At much the same time a world language will be adopted.

Those foundations will need to be in tune with what Baha'u'llah offered, or it will not work. The League of Nations was also a great effort by an American President, who had met Abdul'baha and discussed peace, but He and all the other participants did not go far enough. Then the United Nations came along, in the City Abdul'baha blessed for that purpose, yet the world again neglected the strong foundations of which world peace needed to be built upon.

There is a lot of info on it at this link.

Attainment of the Unity of Nations and the Lesser Peace

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

The Bahaism people have a birth right to be wrong and to believe in any weird things they like just out of their blindfaith with reason or without any reason, I don't deny them. Right, please?

The same exact thing applies to Jews and Christians and Muslims and those of all the other religions who have rejected Baha'u'llah. They have the right to believe whatever weird things they believe and they have the right to be wrong.

The problem all the religious adherents, except the Baha'is, is that each one of them believes they have the ONE true religion, which is completely illogical, because that would mean that God revealed only one of those religions and all the others are false religions.

Good luck with that illogical belief. You'll need it.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The Bahaism people have a birth right to be wrong and to believe in any weird things they like just out of their blindfaith with reason or without any reason, I don't deny them. Right, please?
They don't bother me, at least they keep the attention of the people, as an alternative, to the issue of Second Coming and the Imam Mahdi. Right, please?

Regards

Ha ha, many would offer on RF that these conversations are the blind leading the blind.

I note you have not replied to the knowledge that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was taught about the Bab and Baha'u'llah and also was gifted a large box of books, to which He claimed he then mastered.

Any comment, other that we have blind faith?

All the best paarsurrey, Regards Tony