Who is the real Imam Mahdi? Is he still to come?

[TransmutingSoul]

Again, lots of words. One glaring thing is that it says that Baha'u'llah is the “Prince of this world”. But Christians say this is a reference to Satan. I'm sure you'll find lots of other problems with the claims that Baha'is are making here. But then, I don't think they really care. They believe this is the truth no matter what "problems" people find with it. But really, how many people read all of this word for word? I can't imagine what it would be like reading a whole book of things like this.

How is that different to all God given Faiths, when and after they were proclaimed to a wayward Generation?

One can ask themselves. Has God ever sent a Messenger to confirm the current beliefs? And Has God always warned the people before, the Faith becomes more widely accepted.

The Baha'i accept what has happened in history and take a personal journey to learn from it.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Bab and Bahaullah, I get for one, only quoted the Shia Ahadith and their claims were from that point of view.

Baha'u'llah quoted from both Shia and Sunni Hadith.

One wonders where all that knowledge came from.

One of the accusations used against Baha'u'llah by the Islamic Theologians was that Baha'u'llah did misquote Hadith.

The thing is, when they researched, they found Baha'u'llah was correct.

It is easy to bring those accusations up, but if they were correct, Baha’u’llah would have been found false by those Islamic theologians.

Why do you think they Banished Him? I would offer my view, as it was because they could not match the wisdom given by God to Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Bahaullah left Islam and he did not claim to be a Bahai, please. Right, please

Wow, you still offer that paarsurrey.

You know, when the Islamic theologians could not match Baha'u'llah in a debate, they then started a lot of schoolyard calamities against Baha'u'llah.

They offered do not go see Baha'i as they put drugs in your tea, or put spells on you. You should look these up, there are side splitting LOL accusations.

It is amazing what learned men will stoop to, when they are found to be not so smart. Whan I say that, I talk of the Islamic divines who persecuted Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Unless Baha'u'llah or Abdul Baha said something specific, Baha'is are left with making things up to fill in the gaps. But then those "answers" are just the opinions and interpretations of individual Baha'is. And, in time, then will we have these "man-made" traditions come to be believed as being true? I think it's already happened.

The great thing is CG. The writings are all there for you and others to make thier own decisions.

In the future, there will be time to sort the chaff from the wheat. Now is not that time, it is time to embrace Oneness, which enables a mindset that does seek after the truth.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The upper strata of the Bahaism people is already hidden from them behind the veil of "infallibility" only the "unfortunate" common/ordinary Bahais have been left outside, and they constantly fear excommunication. Right friend, please?

Another funny paarsurrey. Right no please

There is not one Baha'i I know that fears excommunication and all Baha'i share the same station in faith, that if a beleiver.

The Covernant of Baha'u'llah is challenging and no Baha'i is exempt from abiding within that Covernant, so there is no uppa strata that hides behind a veil, all are Baha'i, all are at different levels of understanding.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I went back and opened up this "spoiler" alert from Tony. Lots of words here, so I spaced out it sentence. Did you ever read through all this? And then he did another one in post 189 for Baha'u'llah.

Edit - Just noted this was to paarsurrey. Good on you CG.

I thank you for reading. You will note that Shoghi Effendi went into great detail as to what prophecy was refering to the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

I can say, I have read it all a few times, and I am actually 2/3 through that book again, I read a bit each night.

Shoghi Effendi had an amazing grasp on the Messages of the Bab and Baha'u'llah and also what Abdu'lbaha offerd about that Message.

Regards Tony

 

[firedragon]

The Kitáb-i-Íqán (Persian: كتاب ايقان‎, Arabic: كتاب الإيقان‎ "Book of Certitude")
The Kitáb-i-Íqán | Bahá'í Reference Library - The Bahá'í Faith

Regards

Which part of it is in Farsi?

Only a part of it is in Persian. So which part "did you read in Farsi"?

 

[paarsurrey]

Which part of it is in Farsi?

Only a part of it is in Persian. So which part "did you read in Farsi"?

Whatever part of it is in Farsi or in Arabic, and its translation in English. I will provide the Hadith mentioned by Bahaullah in Kitab-i-Iqan from its English translation.

Regards

 

[firedragon]

Whatever part of it is in Farsi or in Arabic, and its translation in English. I will provide the Hadith mentioned by Bahaullah in Kitab-i-Iqan from its English translation.

Regards

Brother. You said you read it in "the original farsi" and the "Arabic Translation". You were wrong in that. I was just wondering, if you read in the original farsi, then the translation in Arabic, which part was written in Farsi.

I am sure you have the book you read. So you can provide that information. It is very intriguing.

 

[paarsurrey]

Brother. You said you read it in "the original farsi" and the "Arabic Translation". You were wrong in that. I was just wondering, if you read in the original farsi, then the translation in Arabic, which part was written in Farsi.

I am sure you have the book you read. So you can provide that information. It is very intriguing.

Kindly focus on the Ahadith quoted by Bahaullah in Iqan and provide the references from the online collections of the Ahadith if possible, please. Should I compile it and post it here, please.

Regards

 

[firedragon]

Kindly focus on the Ahadith quoted by Bahaullah in Iqan and provide the references from the online collections of the Ahadith if possible, please. Should I compile it and post it here, please.

Regards

Brother. I like to clarify things. The reason I asked you is because you said you read it in the original farsi. And the Arabic translation. Thats false. I know its false. Thats the reason I asked. I am not a Bahai, but its not fair to mislead anyone about anyones faith.

Alright. No problem. Lets focus on the ahadith you spoke of quoted in the Kithab al eeqaan. Yes I would like to see your point. Please.

 

[CG Didymus]

How is that different to all God given Faiths, when and after they were proclaimed to a wayward Generation?

One can ask themselves. Has God ever sent a Messenger to confirm the current beliefs? And Has God always warned the people before, the Faith becomes more widely accepted.

The Baha'i accept what has happened in history and take a personal journey to learn from it.

Regards Tony

When Baha'is say, "God given Faiths", there is already a problem. When Baha'is say, "wayward generation", there is already a problem, because when has there not been a "wayward generation"? Baha'is say that God sends a new messenger whenever needed. But Baha'is only count the ones that started a new religion, so reformers within a religion don't count? Because in a way, they did start a "new" religion by changing the direction the doctrines and beliefs of the religion's leaders were taking it. So a reform movement isn't from God? Like the Protestant reformation in Christianity.

But in Islam what about the split between the Sunni's and Shia's? Did God guide one of them correctly but not the other? Or, were both wrong and God didn't send anybody and let them go on for hundreds of years before he sent another messenger? And when you say, "one can ask themselves", that is what is happening right now. With what we know from the past, is the Baha'i Faith the truth? In a lot of ways, even though the Baha'i Faith calls itself a new religion, it has enough similarities to Shia Islam to be a liberal reform movement within Islam. It has little in common with Christianity... Little in common with Hinduism and Buddhism, and, other than having lots of laws, has little to do with Judaism.

I personally don't think the end time prophecies have been fulfilled, but maybe. Maybe the Baha'is are right. But at the same time, all religions keep changing and reforming themselves. Some of the movements within a religion I doubt came from God, yet some of them have a larger following than the Baha'i Faith. Baha'is act as if "true seekers" would have believed the new message. And I've asked a few times now, why would a Jew have given up their religious beliefs to become a Catholic Christian? Or, later, after Martin Luther, join one of the Protestant Churches? Or a Hindu or Buddhist, why would they have joined the Mormon Church or the Jehovah Witnesses? And all those, theoretically, if they were "true seekers" should have recognized the truth of Muhammad's message and joined what? The Sunnis? The Shias? Or any other sect of Islam?

And I ask again, when in belief and practice do Baha'is believe any of those religions ever had the truth? So, in a way, the religions themselves were wayward.... proclaiming an incorrect set of doctrines and beliefs to a "wayward" generation? So now how do we get it right? Where do we turn to get trustworthy knowledge about God and religion? Everyone has their own beliefs. Everyone has some good reasons to believe in their religion. And, from the pov of people in the other religions, they have some not so good reasons to believe in their religion. What does the Baha'i Faith offer? It offers, someday, a peaceful world. It says that a new day has dawned. A new messenger has come. Some of what the Baha'i messengers have said is great. Some of the rules I don't like and some I don't think will be able to be enforceable and put into practice.

But, in all these thread about how Baha'u'llah and the Bab have fulfilled prophecy or when Baha'is say that they are the promised Mahdi or the return of Christ and the many other things Baha'is say, there is never a perfect answer. There is never solid evidence. There is only the opinions and interpretations of Baha'is. You might be right. But it is such a big question. The answers should be and would have to be much stronger to convince the majority of the people. It is good enough for you, and that's great, but there are people in every religion and in every new religious movement as smart as you, as dedicated as you and as assured as you that what they believe is the truth. Is Baha'u'llah the Mahdi or the Christ or whatever you say he is? There should be no doubt. With the information we have, I think there's plenty of reasons to still doubt and to keep questioning and asking Baha'is for more proof and evidence of their claims.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

When Baha'is say, "God given Faiths", there is already a problem. When Baha'is say, "wayward generation", there is already a problem, because when has there not been a "wayward generation"? Baha'is say that God sends a new messenger whenever needed. But Baha'is only count the ones that started a new religion, so reformers within a religion don't count? Because in a way, they did start a "new" religion by changing the direction the doctrines and beliefs of the religion's leaders were taking it. So a reform movement isn't from God? Like the Protestant reformation in Christianity.

That is up to you to decide CG. We do have the Bible as a record. So why did Abraham, Moses and Jesus come?

Muhammad came to unite bloodthirsty tribes that used to bury joing baby girls alive, so perverse they had become.

The Bab came to Persia as in the 1800's the morality and waywardness of the divines was very perverse.

Likewise why do you think Abdul'baha went to America? It is not because America was spiritual giants, but exactly the opposite. America has great potential in spirit, but it had become a Nation of material pursuits. Those material pursuits will catch up with all Nations and all peoples and America will eventually help change the world for the better.

One has to consider if God does know all and consider God always guides and if It is up to us to listen.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So now how do we get it right? Where do we turn to get trustworthy knowledge about God and religion? Everyone has their own beliefs

When we work together as one human race CG. When our motivation to live and love, is so that all people can enjoy life without dire need for the basic necessities. When we pursue life in service to each other and protect all life on this planet and the planet itself.

I see to achieve that, not all will be called Baha'i, as that is the aim of all Faiths.

So when people turn their heart to God, which to us is all virtues, we may stand a chance.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

With the information we have, I think there's plenty of reasons to still doubt and to keep questioning and asking Baha'is for more proof and evidence of their claims.

That is your choice CG.

For me there is no doubt, but the waywardness of my own self, knowing I should have done much more.

Ya Baha'ul Abha

Regards Tony

 

[paarsurrey]

When Baha'is say, "God given Faiths", there is already a problem. When Baha'is say, "wayward generation", there is already a problem, because when has there not been a "wayward generation"? Baha'is say that God sends a new messenger whenever needed. But Baha'is only count the ones that started a new religion, so reformers within a religion don't count? Because in a way, they did start a "new" religion by changing the direction the doctrines and beliefs of the religion's leaders were taking it. So a reform movement isn't from God? Like the Protestant reformation in Christianity.

But in Islam what about the split between the Sunni's and Shia's? Did God guide one of them correctly but not the other? Or, were both wrong and God didn't send anybody and let them go on for hundreds of years before he sent another messenger? And when you say, "one can ask themselves", that is what is happening right now. With what we know from the past, is the Baha'i Faith the truth? In a lot of ways, even though the Baha'i Faith calls itself a new religion, it has enough similarities to Shia Islam to be a liberal reform movement within Islam. It has little in common with Christianity... Little in common with Hinduism and Buddhism, and, other than having lots of laws, has little to do with Judaism.

I personally don't think the end time prophecies have been fulfilled, but maybe. Maybe the Baha'is are right. But at the same time, all religions keep changing and reforming themselves. Some of the movements within a religion I doubt came from God, yet some of them have a larger following than the Baha'i Faith. Baha'is act as if "true seekers" would have believed the new message. And I've asked a few times now, why would a Jew have given up their religious beliefs to become a Catholic Christian? Or, later, after Martin Luther, join one of the Protestant Churches? Or a Hindu or Buddhist, why would they have joined the Mormon Church or the Jehovah Witnesses? And all those, theoretically, if they were "true seekers" should have recognized the truth of Muhammad's message and joined what? The Sunnis? The Shias? Or any other sect of Islam?

And I ask again, when in belief and practice do Baha'is believe any of those religions ever had the truth? So, in a way, the religions themselves were wayward.... proclaiming an incorrect set of doctrines and beliefs to a "wayward" generation? So now how do we get it right? Where do we turn to get trustworthy knowledge about God and religion? Everyone has their own beliefs. Everyone has some good reasons to believe in their religion. And, from the pov of people in the other religions, they have some not so good reasons to believe in their religion. What does the Baha'i Faith offer? It offers, someday, a peaceful world. It says that a new day has dawned. A new messenger has come. Some of what the Baha'i messengers have said is great. Some of the rules I don't like and some I don't think will be able to be enforceable and put into practice.

But, in all these thread about how Baha'u'llah and the Bab have fulfilled prophecy or when Baha'is say that they are the promised Mahdi or the return of Christ and the many other things Baha'is say, there is never a perfect answer. There is never solid evidence. There is only the opinions and interpretations of Baha'is. You might be right. But it is such a big question. The answers should be and would have to be much stronger to convince the majority of the people. It is good enough for you, and that's great, but there are people in every religion and in every new religious movement as smart as you, as dedicated as you and as assured as you that what they believe is the truth. Is Baha'u'llah the Mahdi or the Christ or whatever you say he is? There should be no doubt. With the information we have, I think there's plenty of reasons to still doubt and to keep questioning and asking Baha'is for more proof and evidence of their claims.

CG Didymus " even though the Baha'i Faith calls itself a new religion, it has enough similarities to Shia Islam to be a liberal reform movement within Islam."

Aren't Bahais a line of "infallibles", even if one shows them truth right personified before their very eyes, I get, they don't see it, they only see their "infallibles"?

Bahaullah left Islam, so it is not a reform movement within Islam and or within Shia-Islam; and they claim that they are a new religion. Bahaullah made a new religion for the Bahaism people, but he himself , I understand, never claimed to be a Bahai. If yes, then they should quote preferably from Iqan by Bahaullah. Right, please?

Regards

 

[TransmutingSoul]

CG Didymus " even though the Baha'i Faith calls itself a new religion, it has enough similarities to Shia Islam to be a liberal reform movement within Islam."

Aren't Bahais a line of "infallibles", even if one shows them truth right personified before their very eyes, I get, they don't see it, they only see their "infallibles"?

Bahaullah left Islam, so it is not a reform movement within Islam and or within Shia-Islam; and they claim that they are a new religion. Bahaullah made a new religion for the Bahaism people, but he himself , I understand, never claimed to be a Bahai. If yes, then they should quote preferably from Iqan by Bahaullah. Right, please?

Regards

Are you offering paarsurrey, by asking such a basic Faith question, that you are following the teachings of a Fallible Messenger?

If you see your teachings are not Fallible, then what you have offered is just applicable to what you have embraced.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

CG Didymus " even though the Baha'i Faith calls itself a new religion, it has enough similarities to Shia Islam to be a liberal reform movement within Islam."

Aren't Bahais a line of "infallibles", even if one shows them truth right personified before their very eyes, I get, they don't see it, they only see their "infallibles"?

Bahaullah left Islam, so it is not a reform movement within Islam and or within Shia-Islam; and they claim that they are a new religion. Bahaullah made a new religion for the Bahaism people, but he himself , I understand, never claimed to be a Bahai. If yes, then they should quote preferably from Iqan by Bahaullah. Right, please?

Regards

To me the Baha'i Faith has the most in common with Islam. That's why I think it can be seem as a kind of liberalized form of Islam. And yes, they have a line of "infallibles". So matter what other people in other religions think or say, a Baha'i can always say that what the Baha'i Faith says is the infallible Word of God, so, therefore, the Baha'i interpretation is the one that is correct. So if they say the Mahdi has come, they are correct. If they say who the Mahdi is, they are correct. Even if people find things that contradict what they say.

 

[CG Didymus]

Are you offering paarsurrey, by asking such a basic Faith question, that you are following the teachings of a Fallible Messenger?

If you see your teachings are not Fallible, then what you have offered is just applicable to what you have embraced.

Regards Tony

As if Baha'is believe the Scriptures of the other religions are infallible. Yes, and I know that Baha'is could say, and probably do say, they might be infallible and that it is only the interpretation made by the followers of the religion that is fallible. But then again, with the Bible, Baha'is do say that they cannot say that it is 100% authentic. And guess who knows what is authentic and infallible? Of course, your infallible leaders. How convenient is that?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

As if Baha'is believe the Scriptures of the other religions are infallible. Yes, and I know that Baha'is could say, and probably do say, they might be infallible and that it is only the interpretation made by the followers of the religion that is fallible. But then again, with the Bible, Baha'is do say that they cannot say that it is 100% authentic. And guess who knows what is authentic and infallible? Of course, your infallible leaders. How convenient is that?

Or how God given, a fulfilled promise that we would be guided unto all Truth.

The Key here is that we are guided.

It does not say we would have to accept, but it does offer that eventually every eye will see what the Spirit said to the Churches.

It is always about choices CG. I wish you and all people the best of choices.

Regards Tony