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Who is the real Imam Mahdi? Is he still to come?

soulsurvivor

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Since Jesus died a natural death in Kashmir, he survived death on Cross, and those who die a natural death never come again. Jesus cannot come again, in metaphoric, he has already come. Please
Regards
Jesus died in Kashmir? How do you know? There are more than one billion of his followers in this world who don't believe this nonsense. Over one billion Muslims don't believe it either.

And of course people are born again and again - that is known as reincarnation. Nothing metaphoric about it.

Anyway, Jesus and the Mahdi are completely separate people. And the hadiths say they will both come one after the other with the Mahdi coming first. But they will pray together with the Mahdi leading the prayer and Jesus behind him : Hadith of Jesus Praying Behind Mahdi - Wikipedia . It will happens quite soon - many in the world are expecting it now.
 

soulsurvivor

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Personally would be looking for someone who is trying to fix the beliefs/texts; anyone making claims they're the one, has generally got ego problems. :innocent:
I am sure he will eventually try to fix beliefs (not so much the texts - that is the people's job).

But his first priority, at least from the prophecies, is to establish justice and equity in the world. I don't see how he can start doing that without declaring himself first - so I would not dismiss someone just because he made such a claim.

You would not dismiss Jesus just because he claimed to be the Son would you?
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
You would not dismiss Jesus just because he claimed to be the Son would you?
Yeshua didn't claim to be the Son, others said it about him....

Though i wouldn't deny anyone claiming to be the Sons of the Gods, as the Biblical text has it in when you check the Hebrew.

I'd like evidence of any case, I've heard quite a few whilst being on here, watched tons of documentaries of claimants; yet not found anyone close yet, with the knowledge of some of the basic things within Biblical prophecy.
is to establish justice and equity in the world.
Unfortunately my reading of many of the religions, is that happens in the New Kingdom; which is after God has to step in, as we nearly finish off this planet....

Then a enlightened king (Messiah) shall reign, with those who know God; currently here is like being in Hell, with all the dregs left, and many of the enlightened put in a place until after the restoration. :innocent:
 
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Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
All religions are expecting a Savior to come someday (some say at the end of world).

Not all. In Hinduism, for example, it is a belief unique to Vaishnavites. I'm a Hindu and I certainly don't believe it. There are a lot of other faiths that don't either.
 

soulsurvivor

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Yeshua didn't claim to be the Son, others said it about him....

Though i wouldn't deny anyone claiming to be the Sons of the Gods, as the Biblical text has it in when you check the Hebrew.

I'd like evidence of any case, I've heard quite a few whilst being on here, watched tons of documentaries of claimants; yet not found anyone close yet, with the knowledge of some of the basic things within Biblical prophecy.

Unfortunately my reading of many of the religions, is that happens in the New Kingdom; which is after God has to step in, as we nearly finish off this planet....

Then a enlightened king (Messiah) shall reign, with those who know God; currently here is like being in Hell, with all the dregs left, and many of the enlightened put in a place until after the restoration. :innocent:
Matthew 11:27 - Jesus says: "My Father has entrusted everything to me. No one truly knows the Son except the Father, and no one truly knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him." Is he not claiming to be the Son here?

I did not say there was any among the claimants yet who was the real thing, but it would be silly to reject someone merely because he makes the claim.

The dregs in the world are a minority. The problem is that the majority is easily misled by some of these dregs and choose to follow one of them. With an enlightened Messiah we won't have to worry about that.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Jesus died in Kashmir? How do you know? There are more than one billion of his followers in this world who don't believe this nonsense. Over one billion Muslims don't believe it either.

And of course people are born again and again - that is known as reincarnation. Nothing metaphoric about it.

Anyway, Jesus and the Mahdi are completely separate people. And the hadiths say they will both come one after the other with the Mahdi coming first. But they will pray together with the Mahdi leading the prayer and Jesus behind him : Hadith of Jesus Praying Behind Mahdi - Wikipedia . It will happens quite soon - many in the world are expecting it now.
If one human could make a mistake, the same mistake could be made by a billion or more. Te err is human. Right? regards.
 

soulsurvivor

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
If one human could make a mistake, the same mistake could be made by a billion or more. Te err is human. Right? regards.
Sure. But it is much more likely that the 20 million have made the mistake rather than the 3 billion. 97% of scientists believe in climate change, 3% don't - who do you think is more likely to be wrong?

Actually many of the 20 million Ahmadis themselves probably don't believe the stories. I know a Ahmadi who says he just likes that the Ahmadis are more tolerant and less violent than regular Muslims, so he is a dedicated follower although he does not himself believe most of the claims of Mirza Ahmad.
 

arthra

Baha'i
he Bahais – They have two leaders the Bab and Bahaullah (both deceased), but Bahaullah (1817-1892) is the Founder of the faith. They initially claimed that their leader Bahaullah was the Imam Mahdi. But there was no Jesus who followed, so then they changed it to say Bahaullah was the Second Coming of Jesus and the Bab is Imam Mahdi. But that would make Bahaullah junior to Bab, so now they say that Bahaullah is not only Jesus but also ‘the Father’ (from the Bible, both Father and Son in one person). So the Islamic prophesy has been fulfilled - Imam Mahdi has been followed by the Second Coming of Jesus/the Father (although I don’t believe the two of them ever met or led a prayer together as predicted). Bahaullah himself was so sure of his position, he has written many verses in the exact same style as the beatitudes from the Bible. He has also written thousands of ‘tablets’, many still waiting to be translated. I don’t think Bahais claim to be Muslim, but they believe that Koran is the word of God. At least 8 million people believe in these claims of Bahaullah.

I don't think "soul survivor" that your characterization is accurate. If you'd like to cite sources for your statements feel free ... I'd like to see them.
For Baha'is the Bab is generally considered to have fulfilled the prophecies of the appearance of the twelfth imam and to be the Mahdi and the Qa'im. The Bab in His turn prophesied that there was Him Whom God would make manifest to follow and this was claimed by Baha'u'llah after the Bab was executed and on His leaving Baghdad in the Ridvan Garden along the Tigris in April 1863.

Some citations:

"Then Bahá'u'lláh declared the Báb's mission to be true and promulgated His teachings. The Báb announced that the greater manifestation would take place after Him and called the promised one: "Him whom God would manifest," saying that nine years later the reality of His own mission would become apparent. In His writings He stated that in the ninth year this expected one would be known; in the ninth year they would attain to all glory and felicity; in the ninth year they would advance rapidly. Between Bahá'u'lláh and the Báb there was communication privately. The Báb wrote a letter containing three hundred and sixty derivatives of the root "Baha." The Báb was martyred in Tabriz, and Bahá'u'lláh exiled into Iraq-Arabie in 1852, announced Himself in Baghdad."

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - p. 221

"Consider the eagerness with which certain peoples and nations have anticipated the return of Imam-Husayn, whose coming, after the appearance of the Qá'im, hath been prophesied, in days past, by the chosen ones of God, exalted be His glory. These holy ones have, moreover, announced that when He Who is the Day Spring of the manifold grace of God manifesteth Himself, all the Prophets and Messengers, including the Qá'im, will gather together beneath the shadow of the sacred Standard which the Promised One will raise. That hour is now come."

Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 12
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
There are multiple places on the web where you can read these stories. I don't know if any or all of them are true, but there are very specific accusations.

For instance, the claims made here: The Violent Ways of The Bab and The Babis - The Bahai Awareness Homepage

There are a couple that are True. Then one must also put it in context to be fair and just.

Upon the acceptance of the Bab many people were martyred in the most horrific way. The Babi's lived in an age where The law and right to defend ones Faith was just changing and still valid as they had not yet received the new laws.

All the while Baha'u'llah guided them prior to His declaration that peace was the way.

There was some valliant battles undertaken in defense they all came about because the Muslims tried to eradicate the new Faith.

Do we really need to prove this, they were just as barbaric then, nay much more, than as you witness a few radicals today. Can you imagine teaching a new Faith in the heart of the Muslim Faith in Persia in the mid 1800's.

Of course all their records will show the Babis to be in error. Whereas it is always only a few that taint it for the whole.

You will note there were trials and it was the few that paid for there crimes. The remainder were found not guilty.

There are histories that show the Bab'is did what they could amongst the fiercest opposition possible. They came out with victories at all times. The Muslims broke their oath under the Koran, to defeat them. Muhammad forbid the breaking of oaths. The Persians had the most barbaric of tortures and used them often and with relish. Those stories are horrific and no Bahai raised a finger against the injustice

The Day the Law that Holy War was removed from the book flowed from Baha'u'llahs pen. No fight has ever been undertaken by any Baha'i and there will never be another Holy War by any Baha'i.

Regards Tony
 

soulsurvivor

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I don't think "soul survivor" that your characterization is accurate. If you'd like to cite sources for your statements feel free ... I'd like to see them.
For Baha'is the Bab is generally considered to have fulfilled the prophecies of the appearance of the twelfth imam and to be the Mahdi and the Qa'im. The Bab in His turn prophesied that there was Him Whom God would make manifest to follow and this was claimed by Baha'u'llah after the Bab was executed and on His leaving Baghdad in the Ridvan Garden along the Tigris in April 1863.

Some citations:

"Then Bahá'u'lláh declared the Báb's mission to be true and promulgated His teachings. The Báb announced that the greater manifestation would take place after Him and called the promised one: "Him whom God would manifest," saying that nine years later the reality of His own mission would become apparent. In His writings He stated that in the ninth year this expected one would be known; in the ninth year they would attain to all glory and felicity; in the ninth year they would advance rapidly. Between Bahá'u'lláh and the Báb there was communication privately. The Báb wrote a letter containing three hundred and sixty derivatives of the root "Baha." The Báb was martyred in Tabriz, and Bahá'u'lláh exiled into Iraq-Arabie in 1852, announced Himself in Baghdad."

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - p. 221

"Consider the eagerness with which certain peoples and nations have anticipated the return of Imam-Husayn, whose coming, after the appearance of the Qá'im, hath been prophesied, in days past, by the chosen ones of God, exalted be His glory. These holy ones have, moreover, announced that when He Who is the Day Spring of the manifold grace of God manifesteth Himself, all the Prophets and Messengers, including the Qá'im, will gather together beneath the shadow of the sacred Standard which the Promised One will raise. That hour is now come."

Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 12
Hello 'arthra', which statement do you want sources for?
 
We have opened a Telegram Channel for Mahdism discussion that contains all sorts of materials related to Imam al-Mahdi. It would be our honor to have you there. This Channel is run by the experts in this field who have studied for more than 20 years on this subject:

The Final Hope
 
There are a couple that are True. Then one must also put it in context to be fair and just.

Upon the acceptance of the Bab many people were martyred in the most horrific way. The Babi's lived in an age where The law and right to defend ones Faith was just changing and still valid as they had not yet received the new laws.

All the while Baha'u'llah guided them prior to His declaration that peace was the way.

There was some valliant battles undertaken in defense they all came about because the Muslims tried to eradicate the new Faith.

Do we really need to prove this, they were just as barbaric then, nay much more, than as you witness a few radicals today. Can you imagine teaching a new Faith in the heart of the Muslim Faith in Persia in the mid 1800's.

Of course all their records will show the Babis to be in error. Whereas it is always only a few that taint it for the whole.

You will note there were trials and it was the few that paid for there crimes. The remainder were found not guilty.

There are histories that show the Bab'is did what they could amongst the fiercest opposition possible. They came out with victories at all times. The Muslims broke their oath under the Koran, to defeat them. Muhammad forbid the breaking of oaths. The Persians had the most barbaric of tortures and used them often and with relish. Those stories are horrific and no Bahai raised a finger against the injustice

The Day the Law that Holy War was removed from the book flowed from Baha'u'llahs pen. No fight has ever been undertaken by any Baha'i and there will never be another Holy War by any Baha'i.

Regards Tony


We have opened a Telegram Channel for Mahdism discussion that contains all sorts of materials related to Imam al-Mahdi. It would be our honor to have you there. This Channel is run by the experts in this field who have studied for more than 20 years on this subject:

The Final Hope
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
All religions are expecting a Savior to come someday (some say at the end of world). Hindus expect Kalki, Christians await the Second Coming of Jesus, Jews await Moshiach and Muslims expect Imam Mahdi.

This topic is very relevant now, because for some unknown reason, many of these seem to think all these events are going to happen very, very soon.

Among the four, the Muslim savior is particularly interesting because there are many prophesies (or hadiths) regarding his return and there are multiple persons (with several million followers each) claiming to the real Imam Mahdi. Another interesting aspect of Islamic eschatology is that they not only expect the Imam but also say that he will be followed by the Second Coming of Jesus – in fact the two will both be present on Earth at the same time. One hadith of particular interest describe the Imam Mahdi leading a prayer with Jesus standing beside or behind him (in other words Jesus is the junior Savior – although Muslims probably don’t use the word ‘Savior’).

I am interested in discussing the merits of the various claimants and see what people think of the chances are of the ‘’real’ one coming soon.

The Ahmadis – they say that their leader Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (now deceased - 1908) is the Imam Mahdi. However, according to Islamic prophesy, the Mahdi is supposed to be followed by the Second Coming of Jesus. The Ahmadis solved this problem by saying Ahmad was both the Mahdi as well as Jesus, so instead of two separate persons they have come as one. (I have heard some Ahmadis claim that Ahmad is also Krishna, but I don’t know if that is the official position). The Ahmadi also claim that Jesus never died on the cross, but went on to live many years, finally dying and being buried in India (there is even a grave site). Apparently over 20 million believe these stories and are followers of Ahmad. Ahmadis claim to be Muslims, but most other Muslims don’t seem agree. So the Mahdi/Savior according them is come and gone, the world of world has not taken place, so maybe we are all already saved or we can be saved by believing in Ahmad. Mirza Ahmad has written many, many books – perhaps we should be reading them

The Bahais – They have two leaders the Bab and Bahaullah (both deceased), but Bahaullah (1817-1892) is the Founder of the faith. They initially claimed that their leader Bahaullah was the Imam Mahdi. But there was no Jesus who followed, so then they changed it to say Bahaullah was the Second Coming of Jesus and the Bab is Imam Mahdi. But that would make Bahaullah junior to Bab, so now they say that Bahaullah is not only Jesus but also ‘the Father’ (from the Bible, both Father and Son in one person). So the Islamic prophesy has been fulfilled - Imam Mahdi has been followed by the Second Coming of Jesus/the Father (although I don’t believe the two of them ever met or led a prayer together as predicted). Bahaullah himself was so sure of his position, he has written many verses in the exact same style as the beatitudes from the Bible. He has also written thousands of ‘tablets’, many still waiting to be translated. I don’t think Bahais claim to be Muslim, but they believe that Koran is the word of God. At least 8 million people believe in these claims of Bahaullah.

Recently Mohammed Abdullah al-Nasr of Egypt has claimed to be the Mahdi. I am not sure how many people believe his story, but I am sure he has at least some followers.

There is person India living in India who has claimed to be the Imam, but almost nobody seems to believe him.

I think the claims above are a bit dubious – any believers on this forum are welcome to try and convince me otherwise.

Most recently a couple of people have posted on these forums, saying the coming of the Mahdi is near (or has already occurred) . I have looked at their website/wiki but they don’t show an actual person. However, their goals and statements are good. They have even started believing in reincarnation – this is a major change in the dogma of Islam. Only very serious people would take such a big, drastic step of changing in their beliefs especially if you are a Muslim – these are strong convictions. So it looks like they have seen some kind of light. I will keep an open mind – may be this could be the real thing. My money (very small amount) is definitely on them.

This return of the Mahi is of importance not just to Muslims. If he is indeed the expected world savior, he is going to affect every person in the world one way or another. (Incidentally I am a Hindu).

So will the real Imam Mahdi please stand up ?!

Please comment and let me know what you think. (Also please correct any statements I have made above about the beliefs of different faiths above).
In my view, The Bab fulfils these Prophecies in Islam:
The 12th Imam, the Mahdi, the Qaim, the first trumpet.
Bahaullah is, the Qaim, the Mahdi, return of Christ, return of Imam hussein.
So, some prophetic titles are shared by both the Bab and Bahaullah, such as Qaim and Mahdi. But some titles are not shares. Bahaullah is not the 12th Imam as He had to be from lineage of Muhammad. The Bab is not the return of Imam Hussein, as He comes after the 12th Imam and Rules for 40 years.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
so now they say that Bahaullah is not only Jesus but also ‘the Father’ (from the Bible, both Father and Son in one person). So the Islamic prophesy has been fulfilled - Imam Mahdi has been followed by the Second Coming of Jesus/the Father
What the hell? Well, this lines up with my observation that they worship him as a god.
 

soulsurvivor

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
In my view, The Bab fulfils these Prophecies in Islam:
The 12th Imam, the Mahdi, the Qaim, the first trumpet.
Bahaullah is, the Qaim, the Mahdi, return of Christ, return of Imam hussein.
So, some prophetic titles are shared by both the Bab and Bahaullah, such as Qaim and Mahdi. But some titles are not shares. Bahaullah is not the 12th Imam as He had to be from lineage of Muhammad. The Bab is not the return of Imam Hussein, as He comes after the 12th Imam and Rules for 40 years.
Another Bahai told me that Bahaullah was also the Father (from the Trinity). So that makes Bahaullah five persons - the Qaim, the Mahdi, Jesus, Imam Hussain and finally the Father! Very cool! But you forgot Mashiach and Krishna? That would make him seven persons!
 

danieldemol

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What the hell? Well, this lines up with my observation that they worship him as a god.
In my opinion this comes from a conflation of Christian interpretation about what Jesus meant when He claimed He would return in the “Glory of His Father” with a superficial reading of Baha’i texts on the matter.

In the Baha’i faith returning as the Father is simply seen as returning with a senior spiritual station, as a king outranks a prince.

IMO the best way to superficially explain the station of Baha’u’llah is to see Him as an intermediary between God and man, and not to impose trinitarian views which really are rejected in the Baha’i writings.

Kind regards :)
 
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