Who is the real Imam Mahdi? Is he still to come?

[paarsurrey]

No I'm not interested. I suppose I might some day, if I have nothing better to do, I only posted it to let you and others know that there are always two sides to every story. There are a great many parallels to the two faiths, and those can be seen by the Wikipedia articles. Missionary zeal, widespread, a single prophet, letters to world leaders, the world population of each, origins in Islam, both claiming to be superior to previous versions, very similar about the nature of God, but both considered heretic by mainstream Islam as well.

One difference is the succession of power, as the Ahmadiyya leadership remains in one man, whereas the Baha'i is in 9 men. On this forum, only one is represented by several people. As far as I know, Parsurrey is alone here.

It's also interesting to me that each side is unlikely to read the other side's POV. Such is the very nature of confirmation bias. But I will be out. None of my business, really.

Take care.

Even then I enjoy one's participation here. One is welcome here, whatever interests one, please. Kindly don't go out of comments, as we all under discussion here are on the side of the religion and don't belong to no-religion, please. Right, please?

Regards

Regards

 

[Trailblazer]

Gleanings is a collection from Bahaullah's writings, not an original book from him, so sorry, it doesn't fit my criteria, please. Right friend, please? If one wants to quote please quote from "Kitab-e-Iqan" for ""claim and "reason", please. Right friend, please?

Regards

I cannot quote that from The Kitáb-i-Íqán because it is not in that book, but I found it in The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, which is considered the most Holy Book of the Baha'i Faith. The quote on page 32 is a direct quote from Baha'u'llah.

62. Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God, ere the expiration of a full thousand years # 37

The Dispensation of Bahá’u’lláh will last until the coming of the next Manifestation of God, Whose advent will not take place before at least “a full thousand years” will have elapsed. Bahá’u’lláh cautions against ascribing to “this verse” anything other than its “obvious meaning”, and in one of His 196 Tablets, He specifies that “each year” of this thousand year period consists of “twelve months according to the Qur’án, and of nineteen months of nineteen days each, according to the Bayán”.

The intimation of His Revelation to Bahá’u’lláh in the Síyáh-Chál of Ṭihrán, in October 1852, marks the birth of His Prophetic Mission and hence the commencement of the one thousand years or more that must elapse before the appearance of the next Manifestation of God.
The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Pages 195-196

“Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God, ere the expiration of a full thousand years, such a man is assuredly a lying impostor. We pray God that He may graciously assist him to retract and repudiate such claim. Should he repent, God will, no doubt, forgive him. If, however, he persisteth in his error, God will, assuredly, send down one who will deal mercilessly with him. Terrible, indeed, is God in punishing! Whosoever interpreteth this verse otherwise than its obvious meaning is deprived of the Spirit of God and of His mercy which encompasseth all created things. Fear God, and follow not your idle fancies. Nay, rather, follow the bidding of your Lord, the Almighty, the All-Wise. Erelong shall clamorous voices be raised in most lands. Shun them, O My people, and follow not the iniquitous and evil-hearted. This is that of which We gave you forewarning when We were dwelling in ‘Iráq, then later while in the Land of Mystery, and now from this Resplendent Spot.” The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, p. 32

 

[Trailblazer]

Nevertheless, at least it authenticates the office of Imam Mahdi. Right friend, please?

I don't know. What do you believe that office was? Do you believe that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad held that office?

Proclamation

In his early writings, the Báb appears to identify himself as the gate (báb) to the Hidden Twelfth Imam, and later begins explicitly to proclaim his station as that of the Hidden Imam and a new messenger from God.[18] Rather than being a discontinued or evolving consciousness, Saiedi states that the works of the Báb are unitary throughout, and that the gradual disclosure of the Báb's identity is defined by the principle of unity in diversity.[18]

In the Báb's early writings, the exalted identity he was claiming was unmistakable, but because of the reception of the people, his writings appear to convey the impression that he is only the gate to the Hidden Twelfth Imam.[18] To his circle of early believers, the Báb was equivocal about his exact status, gradually confiding in them as not merely a gate to the Hidden Imam, but the Manifestation of the Hidden Imam and the Qa'im himself.[19] During his early meetings with Mullá Husayn, the Báb described himself as the Master and the Promised One. He did not consider himself as simply Kazim Rashti's successor, but claimed a prophetic status, a kind of deputy, delegated not just by the Hidden Imam but through Divine authority.[4] His early texts such as the "Commentary on the Surih of Joseph" used Quranic language that implied divine authority and identified himself effectively with the Imam.[10][20] When Mullá ʻAlí Basṭámí, the second Letter of the Living, was put on trial in Baghdad for preaching about the Báb, clerics studied the "Commentary on the Surih of Joseph," recognized in it a claim to divine revelation, and quoted from it in opposition to prove he had done so.[20]

However, in the early phase of his declaration to the public, the title báb was emphasized as that of the gate leading to the Hidden Imam, as the Báb had told his early believers not to fully disclose his claims or reveal his name.[21] The approach of laying claim to a lower position was intended to create a sense of anticipation for the appearance of the Hidden Imam, as well to avoid persecution and imprisonment, because a public proclamation of mahdi status could bring a swift penalty of death.[21] After a couple of months, as the Báb observed further acceptance and readiness among his believers and the public, he gradually shifted his public claim to that of the Hidden Imam.[21] Then in his final years he publicly claimed to be a Manifestation of God. In his trial, he boldly proclaimed himself, in the presence of the Heir to the Throne of Persia and other notables, the Promised One.[21][22] Finally, in his last authored work, the Haykal al-din,[23] he claimed the "essence of God", dhātu'llāh.[24] In the early months of his public declarations, the adoption of a cautious policy had essentially achieved maximum attention with minimum controversy.[21]

However, the gradual unfolding of his claims caused some confusion, both among the public and for some of his believers. A number of his early followers had instantly recognized his station as a messenger from God with divine authority, and this resulted in disagreement within the Bábi community.[21] Even though the Báb had intended to convey his message with discretion, many of his followers such as Táhirih openly declared the coming of the promised Hidden Imam and Mahdi.[21]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bab

 

[paarsurrey]

In case you are interested below are two websites that have prophecies for the Messianic figure who is supposed to come.

Prophecies from World Religion and other sources

In this page a links to other pages concentrating on prophecies contained in some of the major Religious and Spiritual traditions of the World. Also I have included some predictions of Nostradamus and there is an article on 2012 which is the special date when the Mayan calendar comes to an end. In each section I give some background to the prophecies from the respective World Religions and also discuss some of their social and political implications.

1./ Jewish Prophecies and Messianic Expectation
2./ Christian Prophecies and the Second Coming of Christ
3./ Muslim Prophecies and the Appearance of Imam Mahdi
4./ Hindu Prophecies and the Incarnation of the Kalki Avatar
5./ Buddhist Prophecies and the Coming of Maitraya
6./ Zoroastrian Prophecies for the Coming of the Saoshyant
7./ Prophecies of Nostradamus
8./ Native American Prophecies
9./ Norse Prophecies
10./ 2012 and the end of the Mayan Calendar

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Prophecy Fulfilled Webpage

Each of the world's major religions contains Messianic prophecies.

Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, the Zoroastrian religion and even the Native American religions all foretell the coming of a Promised One. Each of the Founders of these great religions either promised to personally return himself, to send another like himself or in some instances.... the Founder promised to do both.”

Christians await the return of Christ and the coming of "another comforter." The Jewish scriptures foretell the coming of "another Prophet" like Moses and the return of Elijah from heaven. Many Moslems await the appearance of Mahdi and Meseeh. Krishna promised to personally return from age to age. Buddha said that he was not the first Buddha ever to appear and that another "supremely enlightened" Buddha was still yet to come. Zoroastrian prophecies foretell the coming of a "World-renovator." Native American prophecies foretell the coming of a bearded white man from the east who will bring teachings which will restore the hoop of unity.

Each religion, in its own way, has foretold the coming of a great 'religion restoring', 'world uniting', 'peace bringing' Messiah.

For centuries, people from all over the world have been hoping and praying that they will be the generation which will witness the appearance of their Promised One. Not many have considered the possibility that these prophecies from the various religions might actually all be foretelling the exact same event.

Members of the Baha'i Faith believe that in the middle of the last century these prophecies actually were fulfilled and that the Promised One truly did appear.

Baha'u'llah, the Prophet founder of the Baha'i Faith, claims to be the Promised One whose coming was explicitly foretold, not only in the Old and the New Testaments.... but also in the prophecies of the Hindu, Buddhist, Zoroastrian, Islamic and other religions.

If Baha'u'llah truly is the Promised One then His appearance is one of the greatest events of human history. Are Baha'u'llah's claim true? How can we know for certain? Just take a look at some of the proofs and prophecies... and then decide for yourself.

I clicked the first link of one's post:
"Prophecies from World Religion and other sources".
I got to "iawwai.com/". Just for information, please. Is it a Bahaism website, please?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

I cannot quote that from The Kitáb-i-Íqán because it is not in that book, but I found it in The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, which is considered the most Holy Book of the Baha'i Faith. The quote on page 32 is a direct quote from Baha'u'llah.

62. Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God, ere the expiration of a full thousand years # 37

The Dispensation of Bahá’u’lláh will last until the coming of the next Manifestation of God, Whose advent will not take place before at least “a full thousand years” will have elapsed. Bahá’u’lláh cautions against ascribing to “this verse” anything other than its “obvious meaning”, and in one of His 196 Tablets, He specifies that “each year” of this thousand year period consists of “twelve months according to the Qur’án, and of nineteen months of nineteen days each, according to the Bayán”.

The intimation of His Revelation to Bahá’u’lláh in the Síyáh-Chál of Ṭihrán, in October 1852, marks the birth of His Prophetic Mission and hence the commencement of the one thousand years or more that must elapse before the appearance of the next Manifestation of God.
The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Pages 195-196

“Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God, ere the expiration of a full thousand years, such a man is assuredly a lying impostor. We pray God that He may graciously assist him to retract and repudiate such claim. Should he repent, God will, no doubt, forgive him. If, however, he persisteth in his error, God will, assuredly, send down one who will deal mercilessly with him. Terrible, indeed, is God in punishing! Whosoever interpreteth this verse otherwise than its obvious meaning is deprived of the Spirit of God and of His mercy which encompasseth all created things. Fear God, and follow not your idle fancies. Nay, rather, follow the bidding of your Lord, the Almighty, the All-Wise. Erelong shall clamorous voices be raised in most lands. Shun them, O My people, and follow not the iniquitous and evil-hearted. This is that of which We gave you forewarning when We were dwelling in ‘Iráq, then later while in the Land of Mystery, and now from this Resplendent Spot.” The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, p. 32

Even in these quotes from "Kitab-i-Aqdas", there is no claim from Bahaullah that he is "Imam Mahdi",please? If I missed, kindly color it in red please. Right, please?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

I don't know. What do you believe that office was? Do you believe that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad held that office?

Proclamation

In his early writings, the Báb appears to identify himself as the gate (báb) to the Hidden Twelfth Imam, and later begins explicitly to proclaim his station as that of the Hidden Imam and a new messenger from God.[18] Rather than being a discontinued or evolving consciousness, Saiedi states that the works of the Báb are unitary throughout, and that the gradual disclosure of the Báb's identity is defined by the principle of unity in diversity.[18]

In the Báb's early writings, the exalted identity he was claiming was unmistakable, but because of the reception of the people, his writings appear to convey the impression that he is only the gate to the Hidden Twelfth Imam.[18] To his circle of early believers, the Báb was equivocal about his exact status, gradually confiding in them as not merely a gate to the Hidden Imam, but the Manifestation of the Hidden Imam and the Qa'im himself.[19] During his early meetings with Mullá Husayn, the Báb described himself as the Master and the Promised One. He did not consider himself as simply Kazim Rashti's successor, but claimed a prophetic status, a kind of deputy, delegated not just by the Hidden Imam but through Divine authority.[4] His early texts such as the "Commentary on the Surih of Joseph" used Quranic language that implied divine authority and identified himself effectively with the Imam.[10][20] When Mullá ʻAlí Basṭámí, the second Letter of the Living, was put on trial in Baghdad for preaching about the Báb, clerics studied the "Commentary on the Surih of Joseph," recognized in it a claim to divine revelation, and quoted from it in opposition to prove he had done so.[20]

However, in the early phase of his declaration to the public, the title báb was emphasized as that of the gate leading to the Hidden Imam, as the Báb had told his early believers not to fully disclose his claims or reveal his name.[21] The approach of laying claim to a lower position was intended to create a sense of anticipation for the appearance of the Hidden Imam, as well to avoid persecution and imprisonment, because a public proclamation of mahdi status could bring a swift penalty of death.[21] After a couple of months, as the Báb observed further acceptance and readiness among his believers and the public, he gradually shifted his public claim to that of the Hidden Imam.[21] Then in his final years he publicly claimed to be a Manifestation of God. In his trial, he boldly proclaimed himself, in the presence of the Heir to the Throne of Persia and other notables, the Promised One.[21][22] Finally, in his last authored work, the Haykal al-din,[23] he claimed the "essence of God", dhātu'llāh.[24] In the early months of his public declarations, the adoption of a cautious policy had essentially achieved maximum attention with minimum controversy.[21]

However, the gradual unfolding of his claims caused some confusion, both among the public and for some of his believers. A number of his early followers had instantly recognized his station as a messenger from God with divine authority, and this resulted in disagreement within the Bábi community.[21] Even though the Báb had intended to convey his message with discretion, many of his followers such as Táhirih openly declared the coming of the promised Hidden Imam and Mahdi.[21]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bab

"Office"

I meant office of being "Imam Mahdi", please. Right friend, please?

Regards

 

[Trailblazer]

I clicked the first link of one's post:
"Prophecies from World Religion and other sources".
I got to "iawwai.com/". Just for information, please. Is it a Bahaism website, please?

Regards

No, the Prophecies from World Religion and other sources website is not a Baha'i website

The Prophecy Fulfilled Webpage is a Baha'i website, but it is not an official Baha'i website.

 

[Trailblazer]

Even in these quotes from "Kitab-i-Aqdas", there is no claim from Bahaullah that he is "Imam Mahdi",please? If I missed, kindly color it in red please. Right, please?

Regards

Baha'u'llah did not claim to be "Imam Mahdi." I believe that was a claim made by the Bab, but Tony or some of the other Baha'is on RF would probably know more about that than I do, as I am not that well versed in Baha'i history..

 

[Trailblazer]

"Office"

I meant office of being "Imam Mahdi", please. Right friend, please?

Regards

Okay, thanks. So do you believe that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad held that office?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

"Office"

I meant office of being "Imam Mahdi", please. Right friend, please?

Regards

Shoghi Effendi has shown us what Prophecies Baha'u'llah has fulfilled.

Baha'u'llah was "to Shí’ah Islám the return of the Imám Husayn; to Sunní Islám the descent of the “Spirit of God” (Jesus Christ)"

The Bab "was none other than the promised Qá’im (He who ariseth), the Sáhibu’z-Zamán (the Lord of the Age), Who assumed the exclusive right of annulling the whole Qur’ánic Dispensation".

Regards Tony

 

[paarsurrey]

Shoghi Effendi has shown us what Prophecies Baha'u'llah has fulfilled.

Baha'u'llah was "to Shí’ah Islám the return of the Imám Husayn; to Sunní Islám the descent of the “Spirit of God” (Jesus Christ)"

The Bab "was none other than the promised Qá’im (He who ariseth), the Sáhibu’z-Zamán (the Lord of the Age), Who assumed the exclusive right of annulling the whole Qur’ánic Dispensation".

Regards Tony

Sorry, I don't consider Shoghi Effendi to be a straightforward man. I understand, Shoghi Effendi did not honestly translate "Kitab-i-Iqan" of Bahaullah, not even as honestly as the Arabic translation of it. I have read "Kitab-i-Iqan" in Persian , Arabic and English translation of "Kitab-i-Iqan" from the Bahaism website.
Well , it is one's religion, one could rely on Shoghi Effendi as much as one may like but for me he was not a sincere man, please.
Nevertheless, Shoghi Effendi is not being discussed here in this thread, in stead we were discussing Bahaullah and his claim of Imam Mahdi, please. Right friend, please?
Just to make it clear, that my joining the discussion here in this thread is not specific about Bahaullah and his claims.
Since there are prophecies in about every religion regarding the End-Time-Reformer so I wanted that every religion should participate and present his religion's prophecy and as to how it is to be fulfilled according to that religion. Right friend, please?
Since the prophecies are usually in allegoric terms so we all mutually agree, if possible, on these allegoric terms for understanding them correctly. Every religion may present its case in say parallel terms without much attacking the others. Right friend, please?
Of course the Atheism people and its like from no-religion may also join the discussion but , do they have any prophecy of their own, I doubt?

Regards

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Sorry, I don't consider Shoghi Effendi to be a straightforward man. I understand, Shoghi Effendi did not honestly translate "Kitab-i-Iqan" of Bahaullah, not even as honestly as the Arabic translation of it. I have read "Kitab-i-Iqan" in Persian , Arabic and English translation of "Kitab-i-Iqan" from the Bahaism website.
Well , it is one's religion, one could rely on Shoghi Effendi as much as one may like but for me he was not a sincere man, please.
Nevertheless, Shoghi Effendi is not being discussed here in this thread, in stead we were discussing Bahaullah and his claim of Imam Mahdi, please. Right friend, please?
Just to make it clear, that my joining the discussion here in this thread is not specific about Bahaullah and his claims.
Since there are prophecies in about every religion regarding the End-Time-Reformer so I wanted that every religion should participate and present his religion's prophecy and as to how it is to be fulfilled according to that religion. Right friend, please?
Since the prophecies are usually in allegoric terms so we all mutually agree, if possible, on these allegoric terms for understanding them correctly. Every religion may present its case in say parallel terms without much attacking the others. Right friend, please?
Of course the Atheism people and its like from no-religion may also join the discussion but , do they have any prophecy of their own, I doubt?

Regards

That is OK paarsurrey you can see it that way.

Regards Tony

 

[paarsurrey]

Okay, thanks. So do you believe that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad held that office?

Yes, he held the office. I understand that the Imam Mahdi has to be a Successor of Muhammad, a follower of Quran and Sunnah of Muhammad as per Quran. Right, please?

Regards
____________
[ [24:56] وَعَدَ اللّٰہُ الَّذِیۡنَ اٰمَنُوۡا مِنۡکُمۡ وَ عَمِلُوا الصّٰلِحٰتِ لَیَسۡتَخۡلِفَنَّہُمۡ فِی الۡاَرۡضِ کَمَا اسۡتَخۡلَفَ الَّذِیۡنَ مِنۡ قَبۡلِہِمۡ ۪ وَ لَیُمَکِّنَنَّ لَہُمۡ دِیۡنَہُمُ الَّذِی ارۡتَضٰی لَہُمۡ وَ لَیُبَدِّلَنَّہُمۡ مِّنۡۢ بَعۡدِ خَوۡفِہِمۡ اَمۡنًا ؕ یَعۡبُدُوۡنَنِیۡ لَا یُشۡرِکُوۡنَ بِیۡ شَیۡئًا ؕ وَ مَنۡ کَفَرَ بَعۡدَ ذٰلِکَ فَاُولٰٓئِکَ ہُمُ الۡفٰسِقُوۡنَ ﴿۵۶﴾
Allah has promised to those among you who believe and do good works that He will surely make them Successors in the earth, as He made Successors from among those who were before them; and that He will surely establish for them their religion which He has chosen for them; and that He will surely give them in exchange security and peace after their fear: They will worship Me, and they will not associate anything with Me. Then whoso is ungrateful after that, they will be the rebellious.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, he held the office. I understand that the Imam Mahdi has to be a Successor of Muhammad, a follower of Quran and Sunnah of Muhammad as per Quran. Right, please?

Regards
____________
[ [24:56] وَعَدَ اللّٰہُ الَّذِیۡنَ اٰمَنُوۡا مِنۡکُمۡ وَ عَمِلُوا الصّٰلِحٰتِ لَیَسۡتَخۡلِفَنَّہُمۡ فِی الۡاَرۡضِ کَمَا اسۡتَخۡلَفَ الَّذِیۡنَ مِنۡ قَبۡلِہِمۡ ۪ وَ لَیُمَکِّنَنَّ لَہُمۡ دِیۡنَہُمُ الَّذِی ارۡتَضٰی لَہُمۡ وَ لَیُبَدِّلَنَّہُمۡ مِّنۡۢ بَعۡدِ خَوۡفِہِمۡ اَمۡنًا ؕ یَعۡبُدُوۡنَنِیۡ لَا یُشۡرِکُوۡنَ بِیۡ شَیۡئًا ؕ وَ مَنۡ کَفَرَ بَعۡدَ ذٰلِکَ فَاُولٰٓئِکَ ہُمُ الۡفٰسِقُوۡنَ ﴿۵۶﴾
Allah has promised to those among you who believe and do good works that He will surely make them Successors in the earth, as He made Successors from among those who were before them; and that He will surely establish for them their religion which He has chosen for them; and that He will surely give them in exchange security and peace after their fear: They will worship Me, and they will not associate anything with Me. Then whoso is ungrateful after that, they will be the rebellious.

Mirzā Ghulām Ahmad (13 February 1835 – 26 May 1908) was an Indian religious leader and the founder of the Ahmadiyya movement in Islam. He claimed to have been divinely appointed as the promised Messiah and Mahdi—which is the metaphorical second-coming of Jesus (mathīl-iʿIsā),[1][2] in fulfillment of Islam's latter day prophecies, as well as the Mujaddid (centennial reviver) of the 14th Islamic century.[3][4][5]
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad - Wikipedia

I do not believe that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was who he claimed to be but you can believe that of you want to.
Anyone can make a claim like that, but what is the evidence that supports that claim?

 

[paarsurrey]

Baha'u'llah did not claim to be "Imam Mahdi." I believe that was a claim made by the Bab, but Tony or some of the other Baha'is on RF would probably know more about that than I do, as I am not that well versed in Baha'i history..

Trailblazer wrote, " Baha'u'llah did not claim to be "Imam Mahdi."

Thanks and regards.

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer wrote, " Baha'u'llah did not claim to be "Imam Mahdi."

Thanks and regards.

No, Baha'u'llah did not make that claim in His Writings, but as Tony said:

Shoghi Effendi has shown us what Prophecies Baha'u'llah has fulfilled.

Baha'u'llah was "to Shí’ah Islám the return of the Imám Husayn; to Sunní Islám the descent of the “Spirit of God” (Jesus Christ)"

The Bab "was none other than the promised Qá’im (He who ariseth), the Sáhibu’z-Zamán (the Lord of the Age), Who assumed the exclusive right of annulling the whole Qur’ánic Dispensation".

Regards Tony

#130 Tony Bristow-Stagg

 

[paarsurrey]

I don't know. What do you believe that office was? Do you believe that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad held that office?

Proclamation

In his early writings, the Báb appears to identify himself as the gate (báb) to the Hidden Twelfth Imam, and later begins explicitly to proclaim his station as that of the Hidden Imam and a new messenger from God.[18] Rather than being a discontinued or evolving consciousness, Saiedi states that the works of the Báb are unitary throughout, and that the gradual disclosure of the Báb's identity is defined by the principle of unity in diversity.[18]

In the Báb's early writings, the exalted identity he was claiming was unmistakable, but because of the reception of the people, his writings appear to convey the impression that he is only the gate to the Hidden Twelfth Imam.[18] To his circle of early believers, the Báb was equivocal about his exact status, gradually confiding in them as not merely a gate to the Hidden Imam, but the Manifestation of the Hidden Imam and the Qa'im himself.[19] During his early meetings with Mullá Husayn, the Báb described himself as the Master and the Promised One. He did not consider himself as simply Kazim Rashti's successor, but claimed a prophetic status, a kind of deputy, delegated not just by the Hidden Imam but through Divine authority.[4] His early texts such as the "Commentary on the Surih of Joseph" used Quranic language that implied divine authority and identified himself effectively with the Imam.[10][20] When Mullá ʻAlí Basṭámí, the second Letter of the Living, was put on trial in Baghdad for preaching about the Báb, clerics studied the "Commentary on the Surih of Joseph," recognized in it a claim to divine revelation, and quoted from it in opposition to prove he had done so.[20]

However, in the early phase of his declaration to the public, the title báb was emphasized as that of the gate leading to the Hidden Imam, as the Báb had told his early believers not to fully disclose his claims or reveal his name.[21] The approach of laying claim to a lower position was intended to create a sense of anticipation for the appearance of the Hidden Imam, as well to avoid persecution and imprisonment, because a public proclamation of mahdi status could bring a swift penalty of death.[21] After a couple of months, as the Báb observed further acceptance and readiness among his believers and the public, he gradually shifted his public claim to that of the Hidden Imam.[21] Then in his final years he publicly claimed to be a Manifestation of God. In his trial, he boldly proclaimed himself, in the presence of the Heir to the Throne of Persia and other notables, the Promised One.[21][22] Finally, in his last authored work, the Haykal al-din,[23] he claimed the "essence of God", dhātu'llāh.[24] In the early months of his public declarations, the adoption of a cautious policy had essentially achieved maximum attention with minimum controversy.[21]

However, the gradual unfolding of his claims caused some confusion, both among the public and for some of his believers. A number of his early followers had instantly recognized his station as a messenger from God with divine authority, and this resulted in disagreement within the Bábi community.[21] Even though the Báb had intended to convey his message with discretion, many of his followers such as Táhirih openly declared the coming of the promised Hidden Imam and Mahdi.[21]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bab

My way of search/research is that the claim and the gist of argument/reason/signs both must be from the person himself. Right friend, please?
As I get from one neither Bab claimed to be Imam Mahdi himself nor Bahaullah claimed to be Imam Mahdi himself in clear , straightforward/unequivocal and unambiguous terms, please. Right friend, please?

Regards

 

[Trailblazer]

My way of search/research is that the claim and the gist of argument/reason/signs both must be from the person himself. Right friend, please?
As I get from one neither Bab claimed to be Imam Mahdi himself nor Bahaullah claimed to be Imam Mahdi himself in clear , straightforward/unequivocal and unambiguous terms, please. Right friend, please?

Regards

I am not sure what they claimed on their Writings, but probably @ adrian009, @ Tony Bristow-Stagg , or @ loverofhumanity would know.

 

[paarsurrey]

No, Baha'u'llah did not make that claim in His Writings, but as Tony said:

Shoghi Effendi has shown us what Prophecies Baha'u'llah has fulfilled.

Baha'u'llah was "to Shí’ah Islám the return of the Imám Husayn; to Sunní Islám the descent of the “Spirit of God” (Jesus Christ)"

The Bab "was none other than the promised Qá’im (He who ariseth), the Sáhibu’z-Zamán (the Lord of the Age), Who assumed the exclusive right of annulling the whole Qur’ánic Dispensation".

Regards Tony

#130 Tony Bristow-Stagg

Sorry, first Bahaullah's own claim must be on the table. If he did not claim himself then he is out of the claimants. Right friend , please?

Regards

 

[TransmutingSoul]

My way of search/research is that the claim and the gist of argument/reason/signs both must be from the person himself. Right friend, please?
As I get from one neither Bab claimed to be Imam Mahdi himself nor Bahaullah claimed to be Imam Mahdi himself in clear , straightforward/unequivocal and unambiguous terms, please. Right friend, please?

Regards

First let's look at what the Bab Offered.

"... On the last day of His pilgrimage to Mecca, the Bab met Mirza Muhit-i-Kirmani. He stood facing the Black Stone, when the Bab approached him and, taking his hand in His, addressed him in these words: "O Muhit! You regard yourself as one of the most outstanding figures of the shaykhi community and a distinguished exponent of its teachings. In your heart you even claim to be one of the direct successors and rightful inheritors of those twin great Lights, those Stars that have heralded the morn of Divine guidance. Behold, we are both now standing within this most sacred shrine. Within its hallowed precincts, He whose Spirit dwells in this place can cause Truth immediately to be known and distinguished from falsehood, and righteousness from error. Verily I declare, none besides Me in this day, whether in the East or in the West, can claim to be the Gate that leads men to the knowledge of God. My proof is none other than that proof whereby the truth of the Prophet Muhammad was established. Ask Me whatsoever you please; now, at this very moment, I pledge Myself to reveal such verses as can demonstrate the truth of My mission. You must choose either to submit yourself unreservedly to My Cause or to repudiate it entirely. You have no other alternative. If you choose to reject My message, I will not let go your hand until you pledge your word to declare publicly your repudiation of the Truth which I have proclaimed. Thus shall He who speaks the Truth be made known, and he that speaks falsely shall be condemned to eternal misery and shame. Then shall the way of Truth be revealed and made manifest to all men...."

This eventually led to a trial of the Bab and this is what he offered at that trial.

"... He greeted the assembly and, without the slightest hesitation, proceeded to occupy that vacant seat. The majesty of His gait, the expression of overpowering confidence which sat upon His brow—above all, the spirit of power which shone from His whole being, appeared to have for a moment crushed the soul out of the body of those whom He had greeted. A deep, a mysterious silence, suddenly fell upon them. Not one soul in that distinguished assembly dared breathe a single word. At last the stillness which brooded over them was broken by the Nizámu’l-‘Ulama’. “Whom do you claim to be,” he asked the Báb, “and what is the message which you have brought?” “I am,” thrice exclaimed the Báb, “I am, I am, the promised One! I am the One whose name you have for a thousand years invoked, at whose mention you have risen, whose advent you have longed to witness, and the hour of whose Revelation you have prayed God to hasten. Verily I say, it is incumbent upon the peoples of both the East and the West to obey My word and to pledge allegiance to My person.”

When time allows, I will post more.

Regards Tony