Who is the true church?

[Snowbear]

Boo-Hiss

I'm sorry. Didn't mean to offend you by implying that I found writings in the Qu'ran that offended a Christian

 

[Katzpur]

And besides, anyone who has seen the famous Southpark episodes on the subject know without a doubt that only Mormons go to Heaven and Japanese people have no soul.

I never actually saw "the" episode on Mormonism so I really can't comment on it, and I'm not really sure whether your comment was facetious or serious. If it was serious, I'd suggest that you make an effort in the future to get your information from a more reliable source.

 

[Katzpur]

I am not Mormon, but we must be fair. They do not say that only Mormons go to heaven. They have very carefully spelled out to us (because I did not know) that they believed everybody is given a chance in the afterlife.

Hi, Merlin.

First of all, thank you for that comment. It's always nice to know that someone has actually paid attention to what we've said! :bounce

I believe (and perhaps somebody from that faith would confirm) that they believe everybody in the afterlife is given the chance to accept Christianity. Failure to do that would mean you have got to return to Earth to have another try. I think that is how it was explained.

No, that's not quite right. We believe, as you correctly understood, that no one will have to stand before God and say, "But I didn't know! Nobody ever told me!" All will have the opportunity to have a full understanding of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and to either accept or reject it before they are judged.

We believe that the vast majority of mankind will actually end up in Heaven -- including good people who, for whatever reason, did not accept Christ either during mortality or in the Spirit World. We have been accused of being "universalists" in this regard, and while that's not an accurate description, it does come pretty close. Since we believe that there are different "degrees of glory" in Heaven, those who did not accept Christ will receive a lesser degree of glory than those who did. In fact, we believe that only those who commit blasphemy against the Holy Ghost will go to Hell. From our understanding of what this term means, I can safely say that not many individuals qualify. But no one will have to return to earth a second time. Each of us dies and is resurrected only once.

I assume this means that devout Moslem religious leaders, Buddhist monks, etc would all have to accept that their religious life was totally wasted and they should have been Christian. I hope I have interpreted correctly what I have been told.

It is hard for me to imagine any Latter-day Saint who truly understands his religion as suggesting that any life well-lived was totally wasted. As a matter of fact, we are probably far more open to other religions than many Chrisians. Here, for example, are a couple of statements from some of our past leaders on this subject:

“The great religious leaders of the world such as Mohammed, Confucius, and the Reformers, as well as philosophers including Socrates, Plato, and others, received a portion of God’s light. Moral truths were given to them by God to enlighten whole nations and to bring a higher level of understanding to individuals.” (President Spencer W. Kimball)

“While the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is established for the instruction of men, it is ONE of God’s instrumentalities for making known the truth; yet God is not limited to that institution for such purposes, neither in time nor place. He raises up wise men and prophets here and there among all the children of men, of their own tongue and nationality, speaking to them through means that they can comprehend; not always giving a fulness of truth such as may be found in the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ; but always giving that measure of truth that the people are prepared to receive. Mormonism holds, then, that all the great teachers are servants of God among all nations and in all ages. They are inspired men, appointed to instruct God’s children according to the conditions in the midst of which he finds them… Whenever God finds a soul sufficiently enlightened and pure; one with whom His Spirit can communicate, lo! He makes of him a teacher of men.” (Apostle B.H. Roberts)

That said, we believe, as Jesus Christ said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." No one may receive the fullness of salvation outside of an acceptance of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, but God loves all of His children and will bless all of them to the extent that His mercy can be rightfully tempered by justice.

Kathryn

 

[Merlin]

Hi, Merlin.

First of all, thank you for that comment. It's always nice to know that someone has actually paid attention to what we've said! :bounce

No, that's not quite right. We believe, as you correctly understood, that no one will have to stand before God and say, "But I didn't know! Nobody ever told me!" All will have the opportunity to have a full understanding of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and to either accept or reject it before they are judged.

We believe that the vast majority of mankind will actually end up in Heaven -- including good people who, for whatever reason, did not accept Christ either during mortality or in the Spirit World. We have been accused of being "universalists" in this regard, and while that's not an accurate description, it does come pretty close. Since we believe that there are different "degrees of glory" in Heaven, those who did not accept Christ will receive a lesser degree of glory than those who did. In fact, we believe that only those who commit blasphemy against the Holy Ghost will go to Hell. From our understanding of what this term means, I can safely say that not many individuals qualify. But no one will have to return to earth a second time. Each of us dies and is resurrected only once.

It is hard for me to imagine any Latter-day Saint who truly understands his religion as suggesting that any life well-lived was totally wasted. As a matter of fact, we are probably far more open to other religions than many Chrisians. Here, for example, are a couple of statements from some of our past leaders on this subject:

“The great religious leaders of the world such as Mohammed, Confucius, and the Reformers, as well as philosophers including Socrates, Plato, and others, received a portion of God’s light. Moral truths were given to them by God to enlighten whole nations and to bring a higher level of understanding to individuals.” (President Spencer W. Kimball)

“While the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is established for the instruction of men, it is ONE of God’s instrumentalities for making known the truth; yet God is not limited to that institution for such purposes, neither in time nor place. He raises up wise men and prophets here and there among all the children of men, of their own tongue and nationality, speaking to them through means that they can comprehend; not always giving a fulness of truth such as may be found in the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ; but always giving that measure of truth that the people are prepared to receive. Mormonism holds, then, that all the great teachers are servants of God among all nations and in all ages. They are inspired men, appointed to instruct God’s children according to the conditions in the midst of which he finds them… Whenever God finds a soul sufficiently enlightened and pure; one with whom His Spirit can communicate, lo! He makes of him a teacher of men.” (Apostle B.H. Roberts)

That said, we believe, as Jesus Christ said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." No one may receive the fullness of salvation outside of an acceptance of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, but God loves all of His children and will bless all of them to the extent that His mercy can be rightfully tempered by justice.

Kathryn

Thanks for the very complete answer. But it does boil down to the statement that Mormons believe that even Moslems in the afterlife will need to convert to Christianity to achieve full salvation.

Interesting.

 

[Merlin]

My point was the fact that that Koran has not been rewritten or modified means nothing to me... I respect it because I respect the people who worship with it.... nothing more, nothing less.
I have several...

Why would you need more than one?

 

[Quiddity]

Thanks for the very complete answer. But it does boil down to the statement that Mormons believe that even Moslems in the afterlife will need to convert to Christianity to achieve full salvation.

Interesting.

For the record, it is historical Christendom belief that a second chance was not offered.
St. Augustine wrote,

In this life may You cleanse me and make me such that I have no need of the corrective fire, which is for those who are saved, but as if by fire. . . . For it is said: He shall be saved, but as if by fire.​

~Victor

 

[Quiddity]

Why would you need more than one?

Merlin, I don't think he is saying you need more then ONE in the sense that you need more then ONE God. What he is saying is that "not changing" the Koran gives no added weight to your argument. Why? Because you can change things and still maintain essence. What's wrong with change?

Peace
~Victor

 

[Merlin]

Merlin, I don't think he is saying you need more then ONE in the sense that you need more then ONE God. What he is saying is that "not changing" the Koran gives no added weight to your argument. Why? Because you can change things and still maintain essence. What's wrong with change?

Peace
~Victor

Depends who does the changing, I suppose and wheter you liked it as it was

It also suggests the first version was wrong! Now there is a slippery slope.

 

[Merlin]

For the record, it is historical Christendom belief that a second chance was not offered.
St. Augustine wrote,

In this life may You cleanse me and make me such that I have no need of the corrective fire, which is for those who are saved, but as if by fire. . . . For it is said: He shall be saved, but as if by fire.​

~Victor

Not very likely to be true though is it? God is forgiving afer all.

 

[Quiddity]

Depends who does the changing, I suppose and wheter you liked it as it was

It also suggests the first version was wrong! Now there is a slippery slope.

Then I guess this turns into a "who do you trust". Really getting us no where while there is evidence to show that people believed God to project Himself in 3. What to do?

~Victor

 

[Danny]

Following my thread at 'blaming god', i think that each culture has to keep his own religion. It is all about a mental and physical wellbeing. Different cultures have different habits for example they use different types of food. Thus if the target is a healthy body and soul, then each culture needs to determine for itself what that means.

 

[Katzpur]

Thanks for the very complete answer. But it does boil down to the statement that Mormons believe that even Moslems in the afterlife will need to convert to Christianity to achieve full salvation.

Interesting.

Yes, you could say that. As I said in my prior post, Jesus said, "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: noman cometh unto the Father, but by me." We believe, like other Christians, that Jesus Christ is the only way by which we can be reconciled to God. But, you need to remember that in the Spirit World (known in the scriptures as both "Paradise" and "Prison"), most of the stumbling blocks to spiritual knowledge and growth that exist on this earth will be taken away. The cultural elements that exist in so many predominantly non-Christian countries today will no longer exist and the Gospel of Jesus Christ may be more easily received that it could be today (in Iraq, for instance).

 

[Katzpur]

For the record, it is historical Christendom belief that a second chance was not offered.
St. Augustine wrote,

In this life may You cleanse me and make me such that I have no need of the corrective fire, which is for those who are saved, but as if by fire. . . . For it is said: He shall be saved, but as if by fire.​

~Victor

I don't have time right now to reply to this, Victor, but many of the earliest Church fathers said precisely the opposite! I'll get back to you on this later this weekend.


By the way, what about a first chance? Many people who have lived without even receiving a first chance.

 

[may]

If 1914 was the beginning of this end period, and the period was supposed to last for one generation, what is the very last date that would be a credible time to accept that Armageddon might not be going to happen when you thought?

there is no date ,only Jehovah God knows that , even his first-born son Jesus christ ,and the angels in heaven do not know ,only Jehovah,when Jesus spoke of generation he was not refering to a length of time he was refering to a certain generation with certain ways , when Jesus was speaking about that generation he was refering to the unbelievers , thats why peter said in Acts 2;40
And with many other words he bore thorough witness and kept exhorting them, saying: "Get saved from this crooked generation..... so it is not a time period but how people act in this generation, just as the jews back then did not believe Jesus was the son of God ,its the same today people do not recognize Jesus as king of Gods heavenly kingdom ,in these last days the light gets brighter and brighter regarding the accurate understanding about the bible

But the path of the righteous ones is like the bright light that is getting lighter and lighter until the day is firmly established ...proverbs4;18

 

[Aqualung]

there is no date ,only Jehovah God knows that , even his first-born son Jesus christ ,and the angels in heaven do not know ,only Jehovah,when Jesus spoke of generation he was not refering to a length of time he was refering to a certain generation with certain ways , when Jesus was speaking about that generation he was refering to the unbelievers , thats why peter said in Acts 2;40
And with many other words he bore thorough witness and kept exhorting them, saying: "Get saved from this crooked generation..... so it is not a time period but how people act in this generation, just as the jews back then did not believe Jesus was the son of God ,its the same today people do not recognize Jesus as king of Gods heavenly kingdom ,in these last days the light gets brighter and brighter regarding the accurate understanding about the bible

But the path of the righteous ones is like the bright light that is getting lighter and lighter until the day is firmly established ...proverbs4;18

Then why do JWs insist the time is near? For all they know, God has granted that someone, somewhere, would live for a really, really long time.

 

[dan]

Then why do JWs insist the time is near? For all they know, God has granted that someone, somewhere, would live for a really, really long time.

So what do JW publications teach about 1914 before that date actually came and went?

 

[Merlin]

there is no date ,only Jehovah God knows that , even his first-born son Jesus christ ,and the angels in heaven do not know ,only Jehovah,when Jesus spoke of generation he was not refering to a length of time he was refering to a certain generation with certain ways , when Jesus was speaking about that generation he was refering to the unbelievers , thats why peter said in Acts 2;40
And with many other words he bore thorough witness and kept exhorting them, saying: "Get saved from this crooked generation..... so it is not a time period but how people act in this generation, just as the jews back then did not believe Jesus was the son of God ,its the same today people do not recognize Jesus as king of Gods heavenly kingdom ,in these last days the light gets brighter and brighter regarding the accurate understanding about the bible

But the path of the righteous ones is like the bright light that is getting lighter and lighter until the day is firmly established ...proverbs4;18

I hate to rain on your parade, but the fastest-growing religion in the world at the moment is Islam. (No I am not a Muslim). I am just quoting statistics.

So maybe it is true that there is a growing belief in YHWH(whatever you choose to call him), but not necessarily the Christian Bible, and certainly not an individual sect's Bible

 

[Merlin]

So what do JW publications teach about 1914 before that date actually came and went?

fair question. What do LDS publications teach about the period before Joseph Smith?

 

[Katzpur]

fair question. What do LDS publications teach about the period before Joseph Smith?

Merlin,

I'd love to answer you, but I don't understand the question. Could you rephrase it, please?

 

[Merlin]

No problem, my friend.
Sorry to hear that... it shouldn't be hard... it is an official teaching of the Catechism of the Catholic Church (#841).

Truly, that is the most remarkable thing I have heard on these forums. I do not doubt what you have said, I believe you. However, my experience of worshipping in any church I can find, is that the most restrictive communions are the Roman Catholic. And certainly the majority I have had any discussions with believe absolutely that only Roman Catholics go to heaven.

are there any other Roman Catholics in this forum who believe that lots of different denominations and religions will be joining them in heaven? so it is completely irrelevant whether people are Roman Catholic, Anglican, Jehovah's Witness, Mormon, Methodist, or indeed anything.

If this is what the Roman Catholic church believes, I think it makes them unique.