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Who knows about the "Taung child" fossil?

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
I'll get back to this. Meantime if you can't explain in simple terms what I don't 'follow,' or understand, so be it. But it has been interesting. You guys have been in essence calling me stupid and uneducated, therefore because I don't believe that the "evidence" proves life on earth is a result of "natural" evolution, and if course the evidence doesn't prove anything, it's all been helpful and enlightening about your attitude(s).
You opened the door to questions of your education by claiming to be some sort of outstanding scholar. You confessed to memorizing the science surrounding the theory of evolution in order to pass tests. You further stated that you "believed" in the theory of evolution before coming to view it as you do now.

I do not see evidence that you even memorized details of the theory, biology or science related to the topic. It would be wonderful if you had memorized this and retained even a small portion of it. It would facilitate discussion. If you "believed" in the theory, that forms a poor basis to accept science. Essentially, you are telling us that you had no idea and just went with whatever was available to you at the time. I wonder if you ever really thought about it at all.

In light of all you have claimed regarding your education and history coupled with the statements and claims you make here and now, there is little wonder we would question those claims regarding that claimed education.

We do not know how life originated on Earth. We have lots, and lots, and lots, and lots, and lots, and lots...of evidence supporting the explanations of the diversity, evolution and relationship of species on this planet. That explanation is the theory of evolution.
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
I fully accept that, it is not the majority of Christians not even a large minority. You can read the debate on the thread the Words of Jesus from page two and I hope I gave as good as I got.
I did look through that and you were doing really well from what I read.

I know the person you got that question from. We have different views on Christianity and the Bible. I would say more, but you saw for yourself.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
You opened the door to questions of your education by claiming to be some sort of outstanding scholar. You confessed to memorizing the science surrounding the theory of evolution in order to pass tests. You further stated that you "believed" in the theory of evolution before coming to view it as you do now.

I do not see evidence that you even memorized details of the theory, biology or science related to the topic. It would be wonderful if you had memorized this and retained even a small portion of it. It would facilitate discussion. If you "believed" in the theory, that forms a poor basis to accept science. Essentially, you are telling us that you had no idea and just went with whatever was available to you at the time. I wonder if you ever really thought about it at all.

In light of all you have claimed regarding your education and history coupled with the statements and claims you make here and now, there is little wonder we would question those claims regarding that claimed education.

We do not know how life originated on Earth. We have lots, and lots, and lots, and lots, and lots, and lots...of evidence supporting the explanations of the diversity, evolution and relationship of species on this planet. That explanation is the theory of evolution.
I was not a science major, but did well enough in school to warrant scholarships. That includes the courses I took in science. It was enough for me to be on the honor list. I was not a science major, rather an arts major, and frankly at the time had no interest in going ahead with scientific endeavors. However, I was rather interested in certain aspects of biology and still am. I'd love to get a microscope and use it to examine things. If I had been inclined (I wish I had been) to be a researcher in certain scientific fields, I feel rather sure I'd love that. But that's in the future right now perhaps. When I was in school, yes, I 'bought' or accepted whatever I was taught about evolution, because I had no alternative thought about it, or whether it was right or wrong, true or not true. I just accepted it as truth, yes, I did. Like I said, I didn't always believe in God or a Creator, so I accepted evolution as the right way things happened.
In reference to how life originated on earth, since I now believe in a Creator, as far as abiogenesis leading into evolutionary concept, it is no longer a questionable subject for me, particularly insofar as how it all started.AND continues. No matter how you look at it, the idea of a few cells combining to grow into these lifeforms is really a bit too fantastic for my mind to accept any more. Obviously not your mind, and other's minds, they can believe it, as I did, that these things just happened to happen. While you, as well as I, cannot prove that all life forms came about as a result of survival of the fittest, or simple or complex biologic movement, I have absorbed another idea, that of an intelligent force behind like and its continuance. And nothing I have read here or anywhere has diminished that idea.
I do accept that fossils prove (yes, prove) that body parts were similar but different in various aspects, but I no longer believe it happened to happen by sheer evolution, or, in other words, the forces of nature. In fact, while I see proof that there are fossils with craniums and tooth settings similar or different from others, I see no proof that these varying issues, such as snakes and birds and dogs (and plants) came about by means of biological changes either micro or macro. The only 'proof' I see (and yes, I know you don't believe in proof of anything scientific, but I'm using the word because you truly must think the fossils prove the theory) is that time and fossils are set into classifications and theories of how it happened. But again, there really is no -- proof.
Granted, I will do more research on certain subjects regarding these things when I have time.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
That would be interesting.

"I was doing some reading in the science journals and I deny the evidence I read about". "I don't understand what I read, therefore it is not correct".
Nope, but when I have questions about what I read, all you guys do is not explain but point to other links, which you likely will also not (be able to) explain.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Evolution starts when life already exists.

Life had to start somewhere, for sure. But evolution isn't about where life started. That is a different discussion and a different thread.

We can study gravity without knowing where gravity originated from, right? We can study how germs are spread without knowing where the very first germ came from, right?
Same thing here.
Logic dictates that germs developed somehow and somewhere. It's the same with life. For instance, when I'm driving I see some beautiful things. I see birds and trees. Did they just get there? Yes, someone would say. (In other words, they came about by means of evolution.) I see buildings, some very well kept homes. Did they just get there by evolution or -- did someone engineer and build them?
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Nope, but when I have questions about what I read, all you guys do is not explain but point to other links, which you likely will also not (be able to) explain.

I'm still waiting for you to seriously comment on, or ask any questions about, any of the links I've provided - and the big section I directly quoted (#458).

So far all you've done is quote the first paragraph of one and then ask for evidence that was in the rest of it, and quote a small section from one of the others and cherry-pick the two points you felt you could easily dismiss (#424) and then ignored my question about the other points (#432).
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Logic dictates that germs developed somehow and somewhere. It's the same with life. For instance, when I'm driving I see some beautiful things. I see birds and trees. Did they just get there? Yes, someone would say. (In other words, they came about by means of evolution.) I see buildings, some very well kept homes. Did they just get there by evolution or -- did someone engineer and build them?
Yep, life started somewhere. Scientists are right now, as we speak, investigating and researching that and will continue to do so for a long time.

Abiogenesis has nothing to do with a discussion about how living organisms evolve.

You know this, but you keep conflating the two things. Why???

Let's say that the god you believe in exists. Let's say this god created the universe, the stars, the sun, the earth with all its trees and flowers and creatures, etc. You do realize that the existence of said god doesn't negate evolution, right? All the evidence scientists have been investigating is all still there and it all still points to the fact that living organisms evolve over time. I mean, why would you be under the impression that this great and powerful god you worship isn't intelligent enough to have also created evolutionary processes, as he was creating everything else?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
OK, no, I take that back kind of, because the criteria (?) are?? what? Obviously not direct observance. It's not like blue eyes and light hair being passed on among humans, for instance. Or long or short legs. And so it kind of fits in the category of the "black box" in which nothing can be seen.
The reality of the fossil record is that it is heavily supported by the genome record that generally fits hand in glove. Plus, on top of that, there really is no logical alternative for this if one actually accepts the scripture that God stop creating after the 6th day.

It says what it says. :shrug:
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
@YoursTrue what do you say to a person who takes Genesis, and says God created, then rested on the seventh day - allowing evolution to take its course, but they say that the very same Genesis that said God created male and female, and told them to multiply, as he did with everything else... even going into some detail on how he made man, they say is a myth, or allegory? Isn't it all written.... in the same book? Does it not say what it says?
Would you not wonder why they don't just consider the "In the beginning God created.." myth, and just admit to be Atheist? :shrug:

Don't Atheists say they have no evidence of God, therefore there is no reason to believe in God? How far are many professed Christians from that?
They look the same to me. I don't see any difference. Atheists have the same blind faith... only they don't call what they believe in 'god'.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
@YoursTrue what do you say to a person who takes Genesis, and says God created, then rested on the seventh day - allowing evolution to take its course, but they say that the very same Genesis that said God created male and female, and told them to multiply, as he did with everything else... even going into some detail on how he made man, they say is a myth, or allegory? Isn't it all written.... in the same book? Does it not say what it says?
Would you not wonder why they don't just consider the "In the beginning God created.." myth, and just admit to be Atheist? :shrug:

Don't Atheists say they have no evidence of God, therefore there is no reason to believe in God? How far are many professed Christians from that?
They look the same to me. I don't see any difference. Atheists have the same blind faith... only they don't call what they believe in 'god'.
There are those here claiming to be Christian, but who don't really believe Jesus ever existed, and especially not as written. They discount the historicity of the Bible in many ways. So it's almost like they're stabbing themselves when they refuse to believe in a Creator.
I've been doing some research in a book about evolution put together by evolutionists, and it's very interesting. Because while it is true that artifacts, including fossils, are said to be millions of years old (and who's arguing? not me...), again -- there really is no convincing evidence in those findings, that they evolved like that (in other words, by magic, or one might say, no superior force). Even IF one wanted to say that nature and not a superior creative force is the binding power, pushing the elements to establish something more than what was before, the evidence does not prove that. As we know, there is no PROOF in science, so it is taught by scientists.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
The reality of the fossil record is that it is heavily supported by the genome record that generally fits hand in glove. Plus, on top of that, there really is no logical alternative for this if one actually accepts the scripture that God stop creating after the 6th day.

It says what it says. :shrug:
The genome record has nothing to do with the theory of evolution. If you think it does, please elucidate in your own words, not a link. That God stopped creating and he RESTED from his works doesn't mean, as Jesus said, that He stopped WORKING. But that's a little deep for now. So better that you please explain how the genome record supports the theory of evolution, and thank you.
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
There are those here claiming to be Christian, but who don't really believe Jesus ever existed, and especially not as written. They discount the historicity of the Bible in many ways. So it's almost like they're stabbing themselves when they refuse to believe in a Creator.

I am no longer Christian but I think it is not whether Jesus ever existed since there is at least some evidence for that, it is that he was figuratively the son of god and not actually the son of god. Just as there are (or at least were when I belonged) those that see the reresection symbolically. They were not refusing to believe in a Creator but believed that taking the bible literally is to misunderstand it completely

fossils, are said to be millions of years old (and who's arguing? not me...), again -- there really is no convincing evidence in those findings, that they evolved like that

Considering you have absolutely no explanation at all for the fossil, to claim there is not convincing evidence is to be ignorant of the patterns of increasing complexity over time which specifically is evidence by itself. All you can do unfortunately is continually ignore the evidence and pretend it does not exist.

Even IF one wanted to say that nature and not a superior creative force is the binding power, pushing the elements to establish something more than what was before, the evidence does not prove that. As we know, there is no PROOF in science, so it is taught by scientists.

Why do you not understand that a proof is for mathematics an whisky and not science. You need to remove that word in these debates. There is continual evidence of increasing complexity in organism and changes in organisms genetic makeup and nowhere on earth to you see a building with the sign - gods new species factory. The reality of this world is there is evidence (proof is not used in all branches of science not just evolution) and absolutely no positive evidence for a creator as the explanation.
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
The genome record has nothing to do with the theory of evolution. If you think it does, please elucidate in your own words, not a link. That God stopped creating and he RESTED from his works doesn't mean, as Jesus said, that He stopped WORKING. But that's a little deep for now. So better that you please explain how the genome record supports the theory of evolution, and thank you.

The genome record is one of the most powerful pieces of evidence of evolution. We can trace genetic changes that would only have been passed on if there were relatedness between different species. We can especially see this in some more conserved genes that do not change quickly over time. As you go down a lineage of a branching family you find increasing numbers of changes in the gene sequences. This is very straight forward evidence.

Also evolution explains convergence. Humans and birds have complex ways of communication but followed different genetic lines. Human and birds have significantly different designs of their brains yet they both developed more complex vocal communication. Their genomic record diverged and developed two different ways to achieve the same characteristic.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
The genome record has nothing to do with the theory of evolution.

This is absolutely false. The genetic evidence is basically the evidence that removes all trace of reasonable doubt from the theory. I'd say that now it is the best evidence available and it often spectacularly confirms what we'd already deduced from other evidence. You've been given multiple links to this evidence. You can't claim it doesn't exist or has nothing to do with evolution if you just ignore what you're given.
If you think it does, please elucidate in your own words, not a link.

You seem to be running scared from addressing this point. Why do you want posters own words when you've been given short pages, written by professionals, and aimed at a popular audience? Why do you think I (or somebody else posting here) are going to do better? Perhaps that's the point.

What's more I did add a couple of examples in my own words to the simple example in the page you'd obviously started to read in #432.

In #458 I quoted a significant piece from a page - what value would there be in me repeating it in my own words? Why would I make the effort when you seem to want to make no effort whatsoever, and just go on repeating the same mistakes "there is no evidence", "it isn't proved"?

Regardless, I'll do it here just to see what you're next excuse is going to be.

Here is my summary of the piece in #458. It outlined a study that looked at the mutations that we observe in the human genome today and (because different mutations occur at different rates) we can plot a frequency pattern of different types of mutations. If it is true that humans evolved from a common ancestor with chimpanzees, we would expect that to be due to lots and lots of mutations that accumulated over millions of years. We can then look at the differences between human DNA and chimp DNA and look at the pattern of differences there. Apart from the scale (there are obviously many more differences between humans and chimps, than between different humans) the pattern is pretty much exactly the same. In other words, the pattern of differences are exactly that we'd expect if all the difference were due to accumulated mutations.

Creationists like to dismiss genetic similarities with "common design" (reusing genetic code for the same purpose) but there seems to be no reason at all why a designer would contrive to make all the differences look exactly like the accumulation of the same sort of mutations we see happening today in the human population.

The other example of evidence (#432) is from mutated (broken) genes that we find in modern species. There is an example of the vitamin C gene in the article, but I also pointed out that humans have a mutated version of the gene for making egg yoke. We also share several broken olfactory receptor (sense of smell) genes with chimps, gorillas, and orangutans and we can use the exact why in which they are broken, to deduce a family tree (if chimps and humans share a gene with the same mutation, and gorillas and orangutans have different ones, we put chimps and humans as more closely related because the mutation happened in their common ancestor after they diverged from the others).

When we do that, not only do we get exactly the same family tree as we do from other evidence (genetic and otherwise), there are also absolutely no 'out of place' mutations at all. There is no deviation from the pattern we'd expect if the family tree is accurate.

These are just small examples of the genetic evidence, just a tiny, tiny glimpse into the totality of the evidence that really does remove rational doubt.

I doubt very much that I've expressed these as well as the original source materials, but I've done what you asked - what reason are you going to use to ignore it this time?

Source material:
Common Descent vs. Common Design: 4 Examples Explained Better by Descent - Articles
Testing Common Ancestry: It’s All About the Mutations - Articles
Genesis and the Genome (pdf)
 
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metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
The genome record has nothing to do with the theory of evolution. If you think it does, please elucidate in your own words, not a link.
I hate to say this but if you cannot see the connection, this explains why you cannot and will not ever understand the ToE and why it's considered to be an axiom within biology. It's like trying to understand Jesus and what he taught without actually reading and knowing about the Gospel.

Briefly, the pattern of changes with the results of genome resting confirms the general appearance that we see with the fossil record. All one has to do is to read even the Wiki article on the ToE to see how this relationship in general works, and that also has links to scientific studies. If you are not willing to spend some substantial time actually going through this, then we know what the real problem is.

Here: Evolution - Wikipedia

And, as posted many times before, the basic ToE is just plain old common sense, namely that matter changes over time and that life forms and genes are forms of matter. For one to ignore this is to walk through life with blinders on because we constantly experience change over our lives and the things around us.

That God stopped creating and he RESTED from his works doesn't mean, as Jesus said, that He stopped WORKING. But that's a little deep for now.
Nice try, but what you have been referring to are new "kinds" being created by God, and there are no biblical references that I'm familiar with that indicates God made new life forms after the 6th day. If you know of any, now would be a good time to post it/them.

But the one thing you also really avoid is the fact there there is more than one way to interpret the Creation accounts, especially because ancient Jewish literature heavily used the telling of "myths*" to teach lessons and morality.

*Myth, in this context, does not mean "false" but is a way of story telling to so as to teach.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
The genome record has nothing to do with the theory of evolution. If you think it does, please elucidate in your own words, not a link. That God stopped creating and he RESTED from his works doesn't mean, as Jesus said, that He stopped WORKING. But that's a little deep for now. So better that you please explain how the genome record supports the theory of evolution, and thank you.
Riiiight, and the DNA you share with your parents and your siblings and your cousins and your great-great-great-grandfather don't show that you're all related to each other to varying degrees either, right?

You and I already went over this, remember? Several times.

What this post shows me again, is that you are not even remotely interested in learning this stuff and have retained absolutely nothing that has been discussed throughout pages and pages of these threads. Stuff that you have specifically and repeatedly asked for. :shrug:
 
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Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
There are those here claiming to be Christian, but who don't really believe Jesus ever existed, and especially not as written. They discount the historicity of the Bible in many ways. So it's almost like they're stabbing themselves when they refuse to believe in a Creator.
I've been doing some research in a book about evolution put together by evolutionists, and it's very interesting. Because while it is true that artifacts, including fossils, are said to be millions of years old (and who's arguing? not me...), again -- there really is no convincing evidence in those findings, that they evolved like that (in other words, by magic, or one might say, no superior force). Even IF one wanted to say that nature and not a superior creative force is the binding power, pushing the elements to establish something more than what was before, the evidence does not prove that. As we know, there is no PROOF in science, so it is taught by scientists.
There are Christians that claim to know the mind of God (practically dictate God) and to understand the Bible exactly and without error. I think people like that are misguided fools with their heads buried in the sand of their own arrogance and hubris. I often wonder if it is God they worship or their own brand.
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
I was not a science major, but did well enough in school to warrant scholarships. That includes the courses I took in science. It was enough for me to be on the honor list. I was not a science major, rather an arts major, and frankly at the time had no interest in going ahead with scientific endeavors. However, I was rather interested in certain aspects of biology and still am. I'd love to get a microscope and use it to examine things. If I had been inclined (I wish I had been) to be a researcher in certain scientific fields, I feel rather sure I'd love that. But that's in the future right now perhaps. When I was in school, yes, I 'bought' or accepted whatever I was taught about evolution, because I had no alternative thought about it, or whether it was right or wrong, true or not true. I just accepted it as truth, yes, I did. Like I said, I didn't always believe in God or a Creator, so I accepted evolution as the right way things happened.
In reference to how life originated on earth, since I now believe in a Creator, as far as abiogenesis leading into evolutionary concept, it is no longer a questionable subject for me, particularly insofar as how it all started.AND continues. No matter how you look at it, the idea of a few cells combining to grow into these lifeforms is really a bit too fantastic for my mind to accept any more. Obviously not your mind, and other's minds, they can believe it, as I did, that these things just happened to happen. While you, as well as I, cannot prove that all life forms came about as a result of survival of the fittest, or simple or complex biologic movement, I have absorbed another idea, that of an intelligent force behind like and its continuance. And nothing I have read here or anywhere has diminished that idea.
I do accept that fossils prove (yes, prove) that body parts were similar but different in various aspects, but I no longer believe it happened to happen by sheer evolution, or, in other words, the forces of nature. In fact, while I see proof that there are fossils with craniums and tooth settings similar or different from others, I see no proof that these varying issues, such as snakes and birds and dogs (and plants) came about by means of biological changes either micro or macro. The only 'proof' I see (and yes, I know you don't believe in proof of anything scientific, but I'm using the word because you truly must think the fossils prove the theory) is that time and fossils are set into classifications and theories of how it happened. But again, there really is no -- proof.
Granted, I will do more research on certain subjects regarding these things when I have time.
You fixate on fossil evidence at the expense of all the other evidence. Fossils are evidence and they support the theory. They certainly do not support creationism as described in Genesis.

All you can do is deny the evidence. You haven't presented anything valid to challenge the theory.

Creationists attack those that accept the theory. That doesn't impact the theory.

Creationists attack Darwin. That has no impact on the theory.

Creationists attack other creationists over interpretation. That has no impact on the theory.

Creationists attack by conflating the origins of life with the evolution of life. Do you ever wonder why denial and logical fallacies are the basis of creationist arguments?

Creationists attack. I have come to recognize it is what they do.

There is no proof for anything you or I believe. There is evidence supporting the theory of evolution. You do not have to be trained in science to recognize that.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
I'm reading that there were problems associated with categorizing the "Taung child" fossil in terms of its evolutionary place.
I'm reading that creationists cannot provide any real reason - and certainly no evidence - to accept their claims re: the 'truth' of Genesis.
 
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