• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Who knows?

SalixIncendium

अहं ब्रह्मास्मि
Staff member
Premium Member
True, but does that matter to somebody else?

It shouldn't, but when people speak of such an experience, there are those that love to step right up to the plate and attempt to invalidate it.

My experiences shouldn't matter to the next person, but when that person asks an existential question, or if they ask my opinion about something, and I respond based on my own experiences, is acceptable for that person to try to invalidate my response?

People shouldn't go around an attempt to force-feed their experiences and resulting views to others, but likewise, people shouldn't be so quick to dismiss others' views that are formed by their own experiences.

So then you're offering RF as a proof of gods?

That's quite the leap.

No. I never mentioned "proof." I offered RF as evidence for the existence of god(s).

You're a man of science, IIRC. How often does one piece of evidence qualify as "proof" of anything?

Perhaps to the one having the experience, but what behavior in others changes a false belief that they might hold into a correct one? We're reminded of the Christian martyrs who died often horrible deaths for their beliefs and asked to believe that that is evidence that their beliefs were fervently held, which I can agree with, but not that they were correct. There were dead people in Jonestown, Waco, and Rancho Cucamonga who fervently believed that Jim Jones, David Koresh, and Marshall Applewhite were telling them the truth, but their behavior doesn't convince us that their beliefs were valid.

Help me to understand the difference between a "false belief" and a "valid belief."

In my understanding, a belief is neither false nor valid in the absence of objective evidence, at which point it graduates from belief to theory (or law, depending on the evidence).
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
What "stuff" is real?

Well, this morning i walked into a door that when i open it it spring back and smacked my forehead and shoulder. That door is definitely real. It can be measured, it can be observed, and it hurts when it fights back
 

SalixIncendium

अहं ब्रह्मास्मि
Staff member
Premium Member
Well, this morning i walked into a door that when i open it it spring back and smacked my forehead and shoulder. That door is definitely real. It can be measured, it can be observed, and it hurts when it fights back

Please post the measure of the pain and/or suffering your experienced when door smacked you in the forehead and shoulder along with the sustained levels over time. Then we will attempt to verify it or falsify it here.

(And I'm sorry this happened to you :heart:.)
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
By the dream character, yes. By the waker, no.

So your question is irrelevant. What is "real" can be measured in whatever reality you're in. That doesn't make it "real" in any other reality.

It is imagined that the whatever is measured is measured, it is not really measured.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Please post the measure of the pain and/or suffering your experienced when door smacked you in the forehead and shoulder along with the sustained levels over time. Then we will attempt to verify it or falsify it here.

(And I'm sorry this happened to you :heart:.)

Don't be sorry, the door can be measured, and observed, the pain of is irrelevant however there is a half inch, light bruise on my shoulder
 

PureX

Veteran Member
I'd like to think that I'm not so rigid a thinker.

But don't you agree that some things must be true or false?

Mind you, I'm not trying to lord the truth or falsity of a thing over anyone. I'm just trying to find out for myself. There are many ways to perceive reality. And not only that, many different valuable ways. I think we agree there.

But I do make the presumption that there is one reality that we are all referring to when we make claims. And I do tend to think some of these claims are accurate, while others are inaccurate.

Don't you?
The problem for we humans is that "one reality" you refer to is far, far more extensive and complex than any one of us will ever be able to perceive or comprehend. Which means that, to us, every truth is only true relative to some set of criteria that we are imposing on a reality that far exceeds our understanding. So the answer to your question always becomes; true according to what (criteria)?

And we humans forget this all the time. We become so invested with our own particular criteria for determining truth that we can no longer recognize how limited and relative that criteria is. And we begin to convince ourselves that we 'know the truth'. When that was never really possible. All we ever get to know is what fits or doesn't fit with our very limited presumptions about what the truth might be.

I understand that given these limitations, we still have to go with what we think we know, but we are fools if we let ourselves fall for our own mostly blind presumptions. Existence for we humans will never be about being 'right'. It will always and only be about what works and what doesn't via our experiences.

It never mattered that God exists or does not exist. We will never know, anyway. What matters is how our chosen idea of God, whatever that is, effects the value and quality of our lives. "Truth" is fool's gold. Honesty (and humility) is the far more important and valuable asset.
 
Last edited:

Hermit Philosopher

Selflessly here for you
If they exist they can be measured

Take the experience of loving, for example:
  • We can compare an amount of people who say that they experience it.
  • We can record physical reactions in them and study changes in their brain (they’ll vary, both in degree and type).
  • We can compare their descriptions of what it is like (they’ll vary in detail, though resemble in concept).
  • We can compare the effects on their conduct.
  • We can research the effect that those who currently claim to experience it, have on their surroundings and circumstances.
  • We can research the amount of them who’s personalities appear to have been changed by having experience it, vs. those who’s personalities appear to have remained unchanged despite of it.
We cannot in actual fact measure either love nor loving per se, except for through its physical, emotional and social effect + our trust in those who say that they experience them.*

A materialist may very well say: our experience of loving exists, but does love?

I’d ask them: does that question really matter and if so, why?


*) Experiences of the divine can too, only be measured by their physical, emotional and social effects.

Humbly,
Hermit
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Help me to understand the difference between a "false belief" and a "valid belief."

A false belief is one that has been disconfirmed, usually empirically. One might extend that definition to include beliefs that can be disconfirmed but haven't yet. A valid belief (sound conclusion) is one that has been confirmed empirically. A third category of belief is in purely metaphysical entities and processes, meaning those with no impact on experience claimed, the so-called unscientific statements, meaning unfalsifiable statements, also sometimes called "not even wrong."

We cannot in actual fact measure either love nor loving per se, except for through its physical, emotional and social effect + our trust in those who say that they experience them.* A materialist may very well say: our experience of loving exists, but does love?

In my experience, it's the theist that asks this question when trying to argue for the existence of his god for which there is insufficient evidence to justify belief by the standards of the critical evaluation of evidence. Love is an abstraction (induction) that describes one's own feeling that something or someone is worth protecting or investing in, and its evidence in oneself and others is in nurturing and protective behavior.

Existence for we humans will never be about being 'right'. It will always and only be about what works and what doesn't via our experiences.

Yes, and it makes sense then to connect being right or correct with empiricism, and reserve the word for those ideas that can be shown to most accurately predict outcomes. All we need to know is that we have desires and preferences, we make decisions, and we experience sensory perceptions of outcomes. If a man has belief B that some action A will produce desired result D, if B is correct, then doing A will achieve D. If A fails to achieve D, then B is incorrect and a useless idea. If one's definition of truth includes ideas that he believes fervently but cannot demonstrate to be correct nor useful for making decisions as described, it doesn't deserve to be called true or correct or knowledge. This is the correspondence theory of truth. And if you agree that truth or correctness should be measured by its capacity to inform decisions and produce results, then we can have a conversation. And if we disagree about some claim of fact, we have a means to decide the issue.

"Truth" is fool's gold. Honesty (humility) is the far more important and valuable asset.

You say that like the two are mutually exclusive. I wonder what those words need to be translated to in order to make sense. Maybe thinking that one can discover what is true is arrogant and giving up that hope is humility, and that somehow, that will lead to increased happiness or something else of value (important). What's a fool's errand is calling other kinds of ideas truth. That's where a little humility might be of value. Also foolish is epistemological nihilism - an incapacitating paralysis of thought caused by a radical skepticism that denies that anything can be known, which is the opposite of empirically untethered belief (faith) being called knowledge.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Take the experience of loving, for example:
  • We can compare an amount of people who say that they experience it.
  • We can record physical reactions in them and study changes in their brain (they’ll vary, both in degree and type).
  • We can compare their descriptions of what it is like (they’ll vary in detail, though resemble in concept).
  • We can compare the effects on their conduct.
  • We can research the effect that those who currently claim to experience it, have on their surroundings and circumstances.
  • We can research the amount of them who’s personalities appear to have been changed by having experience it, vs. those who’s personalities appear to have remained unchanged despite of it.
We cannot in actual fact measure either love nor loving per se, except for through its physical, emotional and social effect + our trust in those who say that they experience them.*

A materialist may very well say: our experience of loving exists, but does love?

I’d ask them: does that question really matter and if so, why?


*) Experiences of the divine can too, only be measured by their physical, emotional and social effects.

Humbly,
Hermit

The electrochemical action of love in the brain can be observed on mri scans. Thats the physical cause of the emotion
 

Hermit Philosopher

Selflessly here for you
The electrochemical action of love in the brain can be observed on mri scans. Thats the physical cause of the emotion

Yes, I think I included physical observation in my comment. We know that the brain both creates and processes information, as well as the experience of information.
We also study and measure brain activity during mystical experiences (we don’t call that activity “god”).

Humbly,
Hermit
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Yes, and it makes sense then to connect being right or correct with empiricism, and reserve the word for those ideas that can be shown to most accurately predict outcomes. All we need to know is that we have desires and preferences, we make decisions, and we experience sensory perceptions of outcomes. If a man has belief B that some action A will produce desired result D, if B is correct, then doing A will achieve D. If A fails to achieve D, then B is incorrect and a useless idea. If one's definition of truth includes ideas that he believes fervently but cannot demonstrate to be correct nor useful for making decisions as described, it doesn't deserve to be called true or correct or knowledge. This is the correspondence theory of truth. And if you agree that truth or correctness should be measured by its capacity to inform decisions and produce results, then we can have a conversation. And if we disagree about some claim of fact, we have a means to decide the issue.
You're trying to insist that whatever works best for us is the truth. But it's only true that it works best for us according to our preferred criteria of what is "best". That seems like a very weak definition of truth, to me. Especially when what works "best" for the individual may not be what works "best" collectively. Leaving us with two different truths by this weak definition.
 
Top