Who made God?

[Pegg]

In defending creationism, creationists will always uphold the inescapable fact that life only comes from pre-existing life. To that, evolutionists will ask the age old question, If all life comes from preexisting life, who created God?

There is a very simple answer that proves that God did not need to be created and it is found in the first law of thermodynamics.
That law provides us with a real life example of something that cannot be created or destroyed because within the universe, it is eternal.

The first law of thermodynamics observes the principle of conservation of energy. Energy can be transformed, i.e. changed from one form to another, but cannot be created nor destroyed.

So energy is eternal. It cannot be created, nor destroyed because it always exists.Now the second law of thermodynamics tells us that energy is eternal within a closed system. Some will argue that the universe itself is the closed system and that is why the energy is eternal.
However, the universe did not always exist, and considering that the closed system cannot be the 'source' of the energy, as the first law states, then the energy must have come from 'outside' the universe. So where did the energy come from in the first place?


Romans 1:19-20 because what may be known about God is manifest among them, for God made it manifest to them. 20 For his invisible [qualities] are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable

Jermiah 10:12 He is the Maker of the earth by his power

Isaiah 40:28 Have you not come to know or have you not heard? Jehovah, the Creator of the extremities of the earth, is a God to time indefinite. He does not tire out or grow weary


So if someone asks you 'who made God', tell them to consider the scientific evidence as found in the first law of thermodynamics.

 

[Gunfingers]

I'd like to preface this post by pointing out that none of what you're saying has anything to do with evolution. Anyway, on to my response.

In defending creationism, creationists will always uphold the inescapable fact that life only comes from pre-existing life.

This is actually not true. Ignoring the fact that what is and is not life is difficult to define, thus making a great example of the likely transition from one to the other, experiments have been performed that demonstrated the ability to generate organic compounds from inorganic materials. See, for example, the Miller-Urey experiment.

To that, evolutionists will ask the age old question, If all life comes from preexisting life, who created God?

The purpose of this question is not to try to demonstrate the nonexistence of god, it's to point out that science is a process for finding how things happened, not who caused them. When we ask "who created god?" we're looking for an actual answer. What was the agency, by what physical process, and through what methodology did you establish this. That's what we want to know.

There is a very simple answer that proves that God did not need to be created and it is found in the first law of thermodynamics.
That law provides us with a real life example of something that cannot be created or destroyed because within the universe, it is eternal.

The first law of thermodynamics observes the principle of conservation of energy. Energy can be transformed, i.e. changed from one form to another, but cannot be created nor destroyed.

So energy is eternal. It cannot be created, nor destroyed because it always exists.Now the second law of thermodynamics tells us that energy is eternal within a closed system. Some will argue that the universe itself is the closed system and that is why the energy is eternal.

You've jumbled a few laws of thermodynamics together. The first law of thermodynamics doesn't say anything about closed systems because it doesn't need to. Energy is never created or destroyed. Period. Over. Doesn't matter how open or closed a system is. You're thinking of the second law, which points out that in a closed system the entropy will never decrease.

However, the universe did not always exist,

See, this one is a toughy. It's only possible, based on our current understanding of physics, to trace the universe back as far as the big bang. This is because at that point the entire universe was condensed into a singularity so dense that there was no time. Thus asking what was "before" the big bang becomes a sort of division by zero. It's a question with no meaningful answer. I guess what I'm getting at is that we have no reason to conclude that there was ever a time that the universe did not exist, and, in fact, the first law of thermodynamics strongly indicates that the universe did indeed always exist.

and considering that the closed system cannot be the 'source' of the energy, as the first law states, then the energy must have come from 'outside' the universe. So where did the energy come from in the first place?

A closed system cannot, by definitional fiat, get energy from outside.

Eg, a television is a closed system, but it will not work unless it is connected to an energy source. Until someone from outside that closed system actually plugs it in and flicks the switch, it will not function, nor will it produce energy.

See how this breaks down? You claim the television is a closed system, when you admit that the television is getting energy from somewhere outside of the television. Thus the television is an open system.

And the rest of this:

The bible says that God is eternal and that he is the source of all energy.

Romans 1:19-20 because what may be known about God is manifest among them, for God made it manifest to them. 20 For his invisible [qualities] are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable

Jermiah 10:12 He is the Maker of the earth by his power

Isaiah 40:28 Have you not come to know or have you not heard? Jehovah, the Creator of the extremities of the earth, is a God to time indefinite. He does not tire out or grow weary


So if someone asks you 'who made God', tell them to consider the scientific evidence as found in the first law of thermodynamics.

Is pretty much just proselytizing. And I super don't care about that.

 

[waitasec]

[/I]So energy is eternal. It cannot be created, nor destroyed because it always exists.

then so are we, ...our energy was transformed into life and it will transform into something else. this still has no bearing on the existence of a creator, at least not to me. a creator implies intent and there is no way anyone can know that...that is why it's called faith.
i just saw a national geographic movie on netflix called, "moment of death" and they touch upon the laws of thermodynamics...towards the end.

 

[Dan4reason]

In defending creationism, creationists will always uphold the inescapable fact that life only comes from pre-existing life. To that, evolutionists will ask the age old question, If all life comes from preexisting life, who created God?

There is a very simple answer that proves that God did not need to be created and it is found in the first law of thermodynamics.
That law provides us with a real life example of something that cannot be created or destroyed because within the universe, it is eternal.

The first law of thermodynamics observes the principle of conservation of energy. Energy can be transformed, i.e. changed from one form to another, but cannot be created nor destroyed.

So energy is eternal. It cannot be created, nor destroyed because it always exists.Now the second law of thermodynamics tells us that energy is eternal within a closed system. Some will argue that the universe itself is the closed system and that is why the energy is eternal.
However, the universe did not always exist, and considering that the closed system cannot be the 'source' of the energy, as the first law states, then the energy must have come from 'outside' the universe. So where did the energy come from in the first place?
Eg, a television is a closed system, but it will not work unless it is connected to an energy source. Until someone from outside that closed system actually plugs it in and flicks the switch, it will not function, nor will it produce energy.
The bible says that God is eternal and that he is the source of all energy.

Romans 1:19-20 because what may be known about God is manifest among them, for God made it manifest to them. 20 For his invisible [qualities] are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable

Jermiah 10:12 He is the Maker of the earth by his power

Isaiah 40:28 Have you not come to know or have you not heard? Jehovah, the Creator of the extremities of the earth, is a God to time indefinite. He does not tire out or grow weary


So if someone asks you 'who made God', tell them to consider the scientific evidence as found in the first law of thermodynamics.

I am not a physics expert or anything so when I talk about Neuton's laws you have every right to critique me.

When we get to stuff like the theory of relativity, string theory, and quantum mechanics, Neuton's laws start to break down. For normal experience, his laws work fine but when you get to singularities, the quantum level and weird situations, you cannot be so sure. I mean in quantum mechanics we have particles popping into and out of existence. So much for conservation of matter (at least on the small scale).

The first law doesn't even apply to God because he is not mere energy. In fact you have no idea what he is. God is some sort of powerful being with the ability to do anything.

 

[zenzero]

Friends,

Personal understanding is that matter is nothing but vibrations and vibrations comes from silence or nothingness.
The God concept is to understand that eternal nothingness out of which vibration rises and falls into and this continues eternally.

Love & rgds

 

[Pegg]

I'd like to preface this post by pointing out that none of what you're saying has anything to do with evolution.

none whatsoever, except that when creationists and evolutionists argue, the question that is posed by evolutionists is always 'who created God'

That question is what im focusing on.

I guess what I'm getting at is that we have no reason to conclude that there was ever a time that the universe did not exist, and, in fact, the first law of thermodynamics strongly indicates that the universe did indeed always exist.

is this in harmony with scientific fact, or is that just your personal opinion?

A closed system cannot, by definitional fiat, get energy from outside.

Would you classify the universe as a closed or open system? My hubby recons its a closed system in terms of the laws of thermodynamics...im only taking his word for that though... what say you?

See how this breaks down? You claim the television is a closed system, when you admit that the television is getting energy from somewhere outside of the television. Thus the television is an open system.

yes i should have said its an open system...i'll edit that.

 

[Pegg]

then so are we, ...our energy was transformed into life and it will transform into something else. this still has no bearing on the existence of a creator, at least not to me. a creator implies intent and there is no way anyone can know that...that is why it's called faith.
i just saw a national geographic movie on netflix called, "moment of death" and they touch upon the laws of thermodynamics...towards the end.

The energy that is in us can only come from the Creator, so I guess, yes, we are eternal in that the energy that powers us first existed with him.

So in terms of this, do you agree that it is possible that God can be eternal and did not require a maker?

 

[McBell]

In defending creationism, creationists will always uphold the inescapable fact that life only comes from pre-existing life. To that, evolutionists will ask the age old question, If all life comes from preexisting life, who created God?

There is a very simple answer that proves that God did not need to be created and it is found in the first law of thermodynamics.
That law provides us with a real life example of something that cannot be created or destroyed because within the universe, it is eternal.

The first law of thermodynamics observes the principle of conservation of energy. Energy can be transformed, i.e. changed from one form to another, but cannot be created nor destroyed.

So energy is eternal. It cannot be created, nor destroyed because it always exists.Now the second law of thermodynamics tells us that energy is eternal within a closed system. Some will argue that the universe itself is the closed system and that is why the energy is eternal.
However, the universe did not always exist, and considering that the closed system cannot be the 'source' of the energy, as the first law states, then the energy must have come from 'outside' the universe. So where did the energy come from in the first place?


Romans 1:19-20 because what may be known about God is manifest among them, for God made it manifest to them. 20 For his invisible [qualities] are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable

Jermiah 10:12 He is the Maker of the earth by his power

Isaiah 40:28 Have you not come to know or have you not heard? Jehovah, the Creator of the extremities of the earth, is a God to time indefinite. He does not tire out or grow weary


So if someone asks you 'who made God', tell them to consider the scientific evidence as found in the first law of thermodynamics.

Seems to me that in order to show where god came from you must first show that god actually exists.

Your second huge assumption is the claim that the universe did not always exist.

 

[McBell]

The energy that is in us can only come from the Creator,

What is your evidence for this claim?

 

[Pegg]

The first law doesn't even apply to God because he is not mere energy. In fact you have no idea what he is. God is some sort of powerful being with the ability to do anything.

it certainly relates to God in terms of being eternal

 

[Pegg]

What is your evidence for this claim?

Ecclesiastes 12:7 “The dust returns to the earth just as it happened to be and the spirit itself returns to the true God who gave it.”

Psalm 146:4 says: “His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish.” which implies that the spirit is an impersonal force because this verse clearly says that when we die our thoughts, which is our consciousness, perishes.

the spirit must therefore be the force that gives us life...its our vital force or energy.

 

[McBell]

Ecclesiastes 12:7 “The dust returns to the earth just as it happened to be and the spirit itself returns to the true God who gave it.”

Psalm 146:4 says: “His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish.” which implies that the spirit is an impersonal force because this verse clearly says that when we die our thoughts, which is our consciousness, perishes.

the spirit must therefore be the force that gives us life...its our vital force or energy.

Seems to me you are merely presenting assumptions to support your assumptions.

Or perhaps it would be better to phrase it:

Seems you are supporting your beliefs with more of your beliefs and merely tossing some stuff that sounds like science in when you think it helps your case.
​

 

[Pegg]

Seems to me you are merely presenting assumptions to support your assumptions.

Or perhaps it would be better to phrase it:

Seems you are supporting your beliefs with more of your beliefs and merely tossing some stuff that sounds like science in when you think it helps your case.
​

like many others, i actually view the bible as a book of truth. All my 'claims' are based on the bible because I view what is written in it as coming from our Creator. What do I know about spirits/death/life etc... absolutely nothing... but God does know about these things because he created us.

 

[waitasec]

The energy that is in us can only come from the Creator, so I guess, yes, we are eternal in that the energy that powers us first existed with him.

So in terms of this, do you agree that it is possible that God can be eternal and did not require a maker?

you can say the same about the universe...
we are made of star dust...

 

[Kilgore Trout]

People who attempt to combine religion with science, generally have a poor understanding of both.

 

[McBell]

like many others, i actually view the bible as a book of truth. All my 'claims' are based on the bible because I view what is written in it as coming from our Creator. What do I know about spirits/death/life etc... absolutely nothing... but God does know about these things because he created us.

I am not dissing you, I am merely pointing out what it looks like from this end.

 

[Thief]

People who attempt to combine religion with science, generally have a poor understanding of both.

That was shallow.

 

[Thief]

I am not dissing you, I am merely pointing out what it looks like from this end.

Still leaning on that crutch of 'empty retort', I see.

 

[Thief]

you can say the same about the universe...
we are made of star dust...

Which came first?
Spirit or substance?

I say Spirit.

God did it.

 

[Pegg]

I am not dissing you, I am merely pointing out what it looks like from this end.

thats cool, i didnt take your comment to be dissing... but when you asked for evidence of my earlier post, and i gave you a scripture, its because I really do view the bible as the book with all the answers

if it really has come from God, then it must be correct, right?