Who Or What Is Israel?

[YoursTrue]

I have just answered that in full. Are you not reading my posts? My answer has clearly been that we die because it is the nature of life to renew. I think you need to scroll back and read my previous answers.

Yes, I believe in God. I am an agnostic theist. You have asked this before, and I answered you fully. You said you intended to reply, but not that day. When several days went by and you did not reply, I sent you a post asking you if you still intended to reply, and copied that post into the new post so that it would be convenient for you. I am seriously wondering if you always read my posts. At any rate, I will now copy/paste and give you my reply a THIRD time. Please do reply to it.

***** pasting from the Four Dirty Secrets thread, post 633:

First, I don't KNOW for SURE that there is a God. God is a belief I have. Not knowledge. God can be neither proven nor disproven.

In the absence of any actual evidence one way or the other, what am I to do? Clearly I have to make some kind of choice, to either live my life as though God exists or to live it as though he does not. In such a case, I choose to go with my intuition.

Intuition is not the same as evidence. It works well enough that it increases our survival. But intuition is often wrong.

When I look at the awe of nature, I am really really moved. I contemplate the stars. I look up to the distant top of a sequoia tree. I give birth to a baby. And every fiber of my being shouts "God." For me, the design implies a designer. I INTUIT agency behind the universe, and I intuit it very strongly.

But I am simultaneously aware of just how often humans intuit agency when no agency is present.
OK
Think of being out in the woods and a bush rustles. You think "wild animal!" and run away. Now let's say your intuition was incorrect, and it was just a branch falling. NO HARM DONE. But what about the flip? What if there were a rustling in the bushes, and you said to yourself, "Don't overreact, it's nothing" and it was in fact a wild beast? Well, you'd be toast.

So I have a very healthy respect for intuition. I just don't confuse it with evidence. If I had actual evidence that contradicted my intuition, I would go with the evidence. But I don't. So I feel free to let my intuition do its thing.

This is a form of what is called "Agnostic Theism."

So you base your answers, not on possible belief in God, but in the likelihood of evolution*. My intuition tells me that there are certain aspects of animal life that simply are too astounding to have come about by "natural means," i.e., evolution including mutations. To make clearer, some people would ascribe the birth of a child without arms or legs as something God made. I do not believe that. I do believe, however, that the generational aspect of transference of genes via reproduction was initiated by God, and would have been perfect (without debilitating mutations) had Adam and Eve not sinned against their Maker.
*Anyway, for you to describe the God you are not sure exists, -- would be an interesting exercise...
Thanks for your patience in putting up with me.

 

[YoursTrue]

@IndigoChild5559 I hope I'm not bothering you (too much), but can you please say how you level being an "agnostic theist" with belief in God? What's an agnostic theist anyway? (I don't blame you, but there are so many reasons -- from creation -- no, I mean life around us because you probably don't believe in creation so I use the term life around us, and my own life in what I perceive -- for me to believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob now. I am grateful for that.)

 

[IndigoChild5559]

So you base your answers, not on possible belief in God, but in the likelihood of evolution*.

I'm not understanding you. There is no conflict between belief in God and accepting evolution.

My intuition tells me that there are certain aspects of animal life that simply are too astounding to have come about by "natural means," i.e., evolution

Do you remember how in my statement on my belief in God, I said, if there were evidence to contradict my intuition, I would go with the evidence? Your intuition that life is too astounding to have evolved is contradicted by the overwhelming evidence. In THIS case, since there IS evidence, go with the evidence.

*Anyway, for you to describe the God you are not sure exists, -- would be an interesting exercise...

There is not much I have to say. I do not think the finite can fathom the infinite. I suspect that the more we define God, the further from the truth we go. "The Tao which can be expressed is not the eternal Tao." I'm willing to say that God is one.

Thanks for your patience in putting up with me.

No problem. I greatly enjoy chatting with you.

 

[YoursTrue]

I'm not understanding you. There is no conflict between belief in God and accepting evolution.

Do you remember how in my statement on my belief in God, I said, if there were evidence to contradict my intuition, I would go with the evidence? Your intuition that life is too astounding to have evolved is contradicted by the overwhelming evidence. In THIS case, since there IS evidence, go with the evidence.

There is not much I have to say. I do not think the finite can fathom the infinite. I suspect that the more we define God, the further from the truth we go. "The Tao which can be expressed is not the eternal Tao." I'm willing to say that God is one.

No problem. I greatly enjoy chatting with you.

Aw, thanks, that makes me feel better. But! puleeze tell me how God fits in with evolution...please? (Other than the finite cannot fathom the infinite...I think that is also considered in some chapters of Job...)
(Well, at least you're willing to say that God is one.-- although trinitarians do also, I think. He does extend himself, though, doesn't he? Such as his hand -- his finger -- his spirit -- oh, well, take care and shalom.)

 

[YoursTrue]

@IndigoChild5559 Once again, thanks for considering thoughts. Now, regarding evolution as defined by scientists, although not all believe in the theory -- very few, possibly, of course, but anyway -- life just came about by (currently) inexplicable means, according to scientists. Maybe this, maybe that. And then it blossomed -- bloomed -- evolved -- however a person wants to describe the fantastic meeting of elements eventually forming bonds to grow/evolve to other forms. I agree there are fossils (obviously). I do not agree that all of them came about by means of natural evolution. Later for that, since I would have to do a little more research on this (such as the so-called Cambrian burst, or whatever they call it). And once we have that settled, maybe we can actually discuss what IS Israel. Or maybe before that is settled. Once again, shalom.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

But! puleeze tell me how God fits in with evolution...please?

I see evolution as God's tool. His Modus Operandi. Since God designed the laws of nature, everything that nature does is indirectly the work of God.

I think I've mentioned this before, but by far the majority of those who accept evolution also believe in God, even among evolutionary scientists. Now their understanding may not always be the same as yours. I've noticed that Deism is quite common among scientists. But there you have it -- God working through evolution.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Hello again, my friend.

Please do keep in mind that while I'm certified as competent to teach basic science, I am by no means an expert. I will do my best to answer.

Once again, thanks for considering thoughts. Now, regarding evolution as defined by scientists, although not all believe in the theory -- very few, possibly, of course, but anyway -- life just came about by (currently) inexplicable means, according to scientists. Maybe this, maybe that.

You are correct. Science has not yet discovered how life came from non-life. The leading theory of abiogenesis is "chemical evolution" which really has little to do with the Theory of Evolution. But although this is the main hypothesis, there is not adequate evidence of it, at least not yet.

The first experiment which resulted in the creation of amino acids in the lab was the Miller–Urey experiment in 1952. It has been replicated many times. However, an amino acid is a mere piece of a protein. It is certainly not DNA or RNA or any sort of self replicating molecule.

I seem to recall a more recent study that created something MORE than an amino acid, but I searched for it, and found nothing. I'm assuming therefore that my memory is incorrect.

The long and short of it is this: the creation of amino acids is really really interesting, but it does not rise to being proof of chemical evolution. The truth is, we don't know just how non-life became life.

And then it blossomed -- bloomed -- evolved -- however a person wants to describe the fantastic meeting of elements eventually forming bonds to grow/evolve to other forms. I agree there are fossils (obviously).

Correct again. Once life came into being, however that was, we know that it evolved and that this evolution has produced the diverse life that we have today.

such as the so-called Cambrian burst, or whatever they call it

I agree that the Cambrian Explosion is most fascinating. This is what Scientific American has to say about it:

"Some scientists now think that a small, perhaps temporary, increase in oxygen suddenly crossed an ecological threshold, enabling the emergence of predators. The rise of carnivory would have set off an evolutionary arms race that led to the burst of complex body types and behaviours that fill the oceans today."

curious note: I'm really not sure why the magazine used the UK spelling of behaviors. My understanding is that the magazine is published in New York.

 

[Revoltingest]

That is your opinion, of course. The question is, why do we all die?

Shortening telomeres, genetic damage,
disease, & physical trauma.

 

[YoursTrue]

I see evolution as God's tool. His Modus Operandi. Since God designed the laws of nature, everything that nature does is indirectly the work of God.

I think I've mentioned this before, but by far the majority of those who accept evolution also believe in God, even among evolutionary scientists. Now their understanding may not always be the same as yours. I've noticed that Deism is quite common among scientists. But there you have it -- God working through evolution.

Here's part of the problem, as I see it. (part of it) Much of the evidence is placed in the theory, but does not detail it. By that I mean, so far people say that humans evolved in the long run from fish as an example. Even now scientists are still examining how things happen biologically, why we get sick, and the like. Now we know the x-ray machine was not around 5,000 years ago, although David wrote that God saw even the parts of him while he was in his mother's womb.
Psalm 139: - “My bones were not hidden from you when I was made in secret, when I was woven in the lowest parts of the earth.” A poetic expression, yes, but meaning something. So we know that original cell divided and new cells continued to divide. And these began (miraculously, in my opinion) to differentiate, or specialize, to become nerve cells, muscle cells, skin cells, and so forth. I won't go on, but a while back David wrote that God saw the parts of him while he was in his mother's womb.

 

[YoursTrue]

Shortening telomeres, genetic damage,
disease, & physical trauma.

Actually the question is posed towards those who believe there is a God or profess deism or theism, whatever the right term is. When I was still young (in high school) I asked my American history teacher who I thought was very kind and knowledgeable, why are there wars. And he said essentially as one poster said here -- in part to reduce the population. I thought, wow, how selfish and -- stupid. Even at that time, however, I did not believe in God but didn't make a big deal about it because I had no idea what to believe.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Here's part of the problem, as I see it. (part of it) Much of the evidence is placed in the theory, but does not detail it. By that I mean, so far people say that humans evolved in the long run from fish

You really have a thang for the idea that humans evolved from fish. Is it because someone made this statement to you? I just find it odd that you would choose fish to note. The truth is, the oldest fossils we have are of single cell microbes. Humans, and all other life, evolved from those. Fish were just one of gazillion steps in between.

as an example. Even now scientists are still examining how things happen biologically, why we get sick, and the like. Now we know the x-ray machine was not around 5,000 years ago, although David wrote that God saw even the parts of him while he was in his mother's womb.
Psalm 139: - “My bones were not hidden from you when I was made in secret, when I was woven in the lowest parts of the earth.” A poetic expression, yes, but meaning something. So we know that original cell divided and new cells continued to divide. And these began (miraculously, in my opinion) to differentiate, or specialize, to become nerve cells, muscle cells, skin cells, and so forth. I won't go on, but a while back David wrote that God saw the parts of him while he was in his mother's womb.

I'm not trying to be difficult, but I have read your post several times now, and am still unclear what problem you are trying to identify. Would you be so kind as to reword?

 

[Revoltingest]

Actually the question is posed towards those who believe there is a God or profess deism or theism, whatever the right term is. When I was still young (in high school) I asked my American history teacher who I thought was very kind and knowledgeable, why are there wars. And he said essentially as one poster said here -- in part to reduce the population. I thought, wow, how selfish and -- stupid. Even at that time, however, I did not believe in God but didn't make a big deal about it because I had no idea what to believe.

It was the best answer I could come up with.

 

[YoursTrue]

You really have a thang for the idea that humans evolved from fish. Is it because someone made this statement to you? I just find it odd that you would choose fish to note. The truth is, the oldest fossils we have are of single cell microbes. Humans, and all other life, evolved from those. Fish were just one of gazillion steps in between.

I'm not trying to be difficult, but I have read your post several times now, and am still unclear what problem you are trying to identify. Would you be so kind as to reword?

Actually I have a 'thang' for the Bible and for the creation of and by God. I didn't say humans evolved from fish -- (did I? no, I didn't. Some here did. The best way I can put it is that I have come to realize and believe that the Bible is the inspired (God-given through men) word of God. I am not here to dissect every word, I leave that up to others although it can be interesting. But the idea that it ALL happened by random natural occurrences without any intervention or production of a Higher Power (God) is not something I can agree with now. I did not always feel or believe this way, but I have come to realize and believe His word is true, no matter who wants to fight against it --

 

[YoursTrue]

It was the best answer I could come up with.

OK, well at least you're honest.

 

[Revoltingest]

OK, well at least you're honest.

Always.
Except when I'm not.

 

[YoursTrue]

Always.
Except when I'm not.

LOL, I can appreciate that.

 

[YoursTrue]

You really have a thang for the idea that humans evolved from fish. Is it because someone made this statement to you? I just find it odd that you would choose fish to note. The truth is, the oldest fossils we have are of single cell microbes. Humans, and all other life, evolved from those. Fish were just one of gazillion steps in between.

I'm not trying to be difficult, but I have read your post several times now, and am still unclear what problem you are trying to identify. Would you be so kind as to reword?

Ok. Not to be difficult but you think it is possible that from one cell all these other cells with varying functions emerged? Ok, I do not think it happened except by God's power causing the gradual change of function. I cant explain more than that, and I daresay, neither can scientists. Does it happen that cells divide and develop? Yes. Does it happen because things happened by evolution? No, I don't think so. Ok, so what does that mean? That "in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Did God make windstorms to purposely blow down buildings, animals and persons? No. It happens. But one day the Bible says these things will not happen because the earth is going to be a safe, beautiful, pleasant place for everyone.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Ok. Not to be difficult but you think it is possible that from one cell all these other cells with varying functions emerged? '

Yes, that is exactly what I think, given the evidence. But I'm fine with you disagreeing.

To me, evolution is simply God's Modus Operandi.

Did God make windstorms to purposely blow down buildings, animals and persons?

Since God designed the laws of nature, he is indirectly responible for all acts of nature, including hurricanes, tornados, earthquakes, famines, droughts, tidal waves, volcano eruptions, etc. But I don't think God is sitting in heaven saying "Whom shall I smite today with an earthquake?"

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Actually I have a 'thang' for the Bible and for the creation of and by God. I didn't say humans evolved from fish -- (did I? no, I didn't. Some here did.

I understand that. But you have used that specific example on a number of occasions. Thus, it occupies a an amount of your brain that is disproportionate to its importance. It would be like saying over and over that humans evolved from reptiles. We did, but making that same statement over and over would seem a little strange to me.

The best way I can put it is that I have come to realize and believe that the Bible is the inspired (God-given through men) word of God. I am not here to dissect every word, I leave that up to others although it can be interesting. But the idea that it ALL happened by random natural occurrences without any intervention or production of a Higher Power (God) is not something I can agree with now. I did not always feel or believe this way, but I have come to realize and believe His word is true, no matter who wants to fight against it --

Look, I totally get it that you think the bible is an authoritative and reliable source for history and facts about nature. I don't share that view, but I do appreciate that it is YOUR view.

 

[Cordelro]

LOL Typical replacement theology. Fortunately, after the holocaust, almost all Christian churches repudiated this doctrine.

How do you like it when Islam claims to have superseded Christianity?

I am only repeating what the New Testament teaches. Whether what the New Testament teaches is true, everyone must decide for themselves.